Post by ellipses84 on Sept 26, 2023 2:02:00 GMT -5
The poster who compared it to an alcoholic is accurate. They won’t leave until they are ready to leave and leaving / getting back together many times is common. I wouldn’t necessarily say it happens when someone hits rock bottom because there’s a lot of ups and downs, but there could be a moment of the straw that broke the camel’s back where she’s finally done. You can continue to make your boundaries clear and also let her know you will all be there to support her when she is ready to leave him. I’d continue to meet with her in public without him or meet at your sisters. Since she has her own resources, it seems like she has major codependency issues and I don’t know how that will improve if she refuses to go to therapy. Hopefully the police continue to be called and the prosecutors move forward with DV charges even if she doesn’t cooperate. If there’s been restraining orders or he’s on parole, there may be more recourse for future incidents.
Pdq - I grew up in a house with DV but it was an erratic pattern related to addiction and mental health issues, so there was a gap of many years without abuse. My mom finally left the week the DV got directed at us kids. She is still a codependent person in her relationships (quickly remarried to a stepdad who isn’t physically abusive but is often a jerk), doesn’t have a friend group of her own and won’t go to therapy (despite fully supporting therapy for us kids, who are her best friends).
I have a former BFF who was in a DV relationship for 8 years before I ended the friendship. She left her husband for short periods lots of times. Some friends and I helped her leave her him for what we thought was the last time. He tracked her down and there was a terrifying moment I thought he was going to murder us all. She told us about the worst of the abuse. She made a clean break, had a place to live and a job, and then went back to him a couple months later. 15 years later and I just found out she’s still with him. I will say he did a number on her self esteem and definitely isolated her from friends and family. He didn’t forbid her from seeing me, but the jealousy, obsessiveness, constant harassment if she was out with friends and the aftermath made it so she didn’t even want to try to have a life outside of their relationship. Her personal appearance changed to be really plain and I think she was trying to make sure no other guys would even look at her. I felt like remaining friends with her wouldn’t be safe for me, since I’d helped her leave.
Post by starburst604 on Sept 26, 2023 5:23:58 GMT -5
ellipses84 I also had to walk away from a good friend out of fear of her partner. We were college aged and he was her high school bf. One night he tried to run us off the road, after we were fleeing a convenience store where he had attacked her and our other friend who tried to intervene. We were in her car and I took over driving from her after it happened, we were on the way to my house to switch cars and go to the police station when he pulled up behind us, so I just headed right to the police station. It was maybe a couple of miles to the police station, and I had the pedal to the floor the entire way as he was trying to zoom up beside us and push us off the road. It was terrifying. We got a restraining order that night and she was back with him two weeks later. I was done. It had been years of this and I wasn’t going to be in danger like that again.
So it felt like she was completely ignoring my boundaries and hoping this situation would magically fix itself.
The thing you have to remember about boundaries - they aren’t about the other person respecting them/accepting them, because that rarely happens. They are about YOU setting them and enforcing them. Which you’re doing. of course she’s going to keep hoping you’ll change your mind. But you just need to stand firm and say “no” and remind her why. This is entirely in her control. She wants to see you? She can!! Just without him. She won’t do that? Then it’s on her.
letsgetweird, I am so sorry you are in this situation. It is heartbreaking to get to this point where you are watching your loved one suffer but also need to protect yourself. Many complicated emotions, all of them valid. You are an incredible daughter and it sounds like you have been and continue to be a wonderful resource for your mom, but you need to do it in a way that does not validate her dangerous relationships.
PDQ, when I was in an abusive relationship, I knew I wanted to leave. I always wanted to leave. I hated him and hated myself for being in the situation. But I was TERRIFIED of the "what ifs." No one knew what was going on; everyone thought he was a loving and perfect partner. Meanwhile he was so controlling and was threatening to kill himself if I ever left him. People finally started to notice how crazy he was and even then I would brush it off. finally one person told me what I needed to hear, which wasn't "we are afraid for you" or "this is not healthy." The words were "he is not your responsibility. If he hurts himself, that is on HIM, not YOU. do not let him gaslight you into thinking it is your fault." And that was all it took.
So all that is to say, continue to be supportive of your mom, continue to tell her that you love her and WANT a better relationship with her, but that you need her to know that you cannot support this relationship and as long as they are together, you will not be in the same space as him. Offer her support if she leaves him, make sure she knows that its ok to leave him, that his behavior is not healthy, and that you love her no matter what, but hold strong to your boundary.
And please make sure you talk to your therapist about this. I wish I could reach through the computer and hug you; this is all just so much.
You are doing absolutely nothing wrong by refusing to be around him. You are not cutting your mom off or demanding an either/or. She is the one twisting it to that but you are not. Please see that clearly.
I do wonder, however, if he will let your mom see family without him present. There is a need to isolate the abused in these relationships so I’d worry that her dramatics are more due to the boyfriend’s threats than her true desire to not see you.
Are you therapy? I would recommend as a way to navigate this situation better.
I don't think he has ever tried to isolate her before. In the past when me and my siblings have visited my mom, he would usually go to another area of the house or go outside. So I tend to think he's not doing that. But I suppose it's possible especially with this new escalation. I have no idea if she's telling him about all the arguments we've had around this topic.
Did she have friends before him? Isolation comes slowly, I think, so it might be happening. And lurking while you visit is certainly intimidating and dickish
I am so sorry. This sounds impossible and very scary. I would really seek out professional advice here. This man sounds dangerous bath to your mom and potentially to your family. I don’t think I’d say much without really getting some feedback from a therapist who is used to dealing with abusive relationships.
Yes, he is clearly a dangerous person which is the whole reason for the boundary. I've talked to my therapist about this in the past but I haven't seen her in over 6 months. Truly, I'm not sure what my therapist could do other than helping me manage my own emotions around the situation. My mom doesn't seem to be leaving this man any time soon.
I think therapist was not the right word. I would honestly call your local domestic violence organization and get counsel. I volunteered in a domestic violence shelter and crisis line throughout college and the stories are harrowing. Your mom doesn’t sound like she’s going to leave this man, but if she comes around to that decision you want to be able to help her make a plan that gets her out safely and they can help you have that plan in place so you’re not floundering. And yes they can help you manage the emotions or connect you to groups that can help just like Al-Anon.
Would a united front with your sister and an intervention of sorts be an option? I.e. you meet with her and clearly lay out ground rules - you won't go to her house if the BF is there, he isn't welcome in your houses. And you tell her exactly why - he is abusive and you are afraid for not only her life but also others.
ETA if she is receptive to your boundaries, could you start doing activities that might help her make friends. Like art classes or trivia nights where there are regulars who she might make a connection with?
I'm sorry you are going through this. It's ok to reach a point where you need to cut her out of your life.
Didn't want to not respond... I'm so sorry you're going through this, and I think you're doing everything right so far. I can't imagine how frustrating it is for you and your siblings.
My mother was abused by my biological father. I was, too. I know this has to be terrifying and frustrating for you, and I am so sorry.
I also just wanted to bring up isolation. That is a classic abuse tactic. The fewer people she has in her life, the easier it is for him to control her. I don't know if your boundary is the right or wrong one. I personally do not think it will cause her to reevaluate her relationship with him or leave him if that is your goal.
No matter how old you are, it is natural to want your mother to choose you in this situation. However, it is exceedingly difficult in an abusive situation for even the mother of a young child to do that. She will always have a reason that it isn't that bad, or that it can't be her, or he will change. The motivation for her to leave has to come from within her. That's one reason I do think talking to your therapist again will help. contextualize this for you because I do think you may need to accept that she may not leave - at least until she has her own breaking point- and that you can't control this situation with your own actions.
Post by pinkplasticdoll on Sept 26, 2023 9:16:58 GMT -5
I have been in therapy and we have worked/talked a lot about boundaries and how people like your mother don't like boundaries and they realllllly don't like when you hold those boundaries. All of this to say I think your boundaries are perfectly reasonable. Are you in therapy? If not would you consider it? If you are have you brought this up? The manipulation tactic she is using is common and I would be firm when addressing it and reiterate your boundary.
I wonder if there is something else going on with your Mom? Like narcissism or something. I am so not qualified to make any diagnosis, but her defiance and guilting doesn’t really fit. I find her goading really odd. Anyway, I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this and I think you’re completely justified in your stance. There’s no way I could be around a violent abuser.
She is not a narcissist. She is codependent and acting selfish IMO. She is emotionally immature.
I think my mom thought things were going to go back to the way they were, a happy little family that could spend time at her house with her and her bf. And I think she's acting out now that she's learned things will never go back to that as long as he is around. Since I didn't keep my boundaries firm last year, I think she thought the same thing would happen again.
I think your assessment is right on here. Remember- codependency does not like boundaries. They are used to their boundaries being violated and feel upset when you don't allow it. I think your boundary is reasonable but still loving. It's so hard to deal with the emotional manipulation but I think you are going about it the right way.
Post by letsgetweird on Sept 26, 2023 10:03:20 GMT -5
Update: we continued to text in the group chat and it just left me baffled. The way she was responding, I wasn't sure if she misinterpreted what I said. My exact response that started this whole fiasco (in response to her suggesting we spend time together)was "I will as long as BF isn't there." I felt like maybe she thought I was saying I wouldn't see her if they're still a couple. I'm not sure how she could have misinterpreted that though. She continued to say "we've made our choice" and that she feels abandoned, that she barely talks to her kids or see them. I talk to my mom every day.....I have not seen her since Memorial Day. It's not like we were seeing each other every week before this. I guess I'm trying to figure out what's going on here and it's harder to see it when you're in the middle of it. I'm not sure if she's trying to manipulate me or she truly feels abandoned. Regardless, I'm standing strong with my boundary. She also scoffed at me when I asked her if she could not be away from her bf for a few hours to see us, she said it was ridiculous to assume she can't be away from him. But if that's the case, I'm still not understanding where the confusion and outburst of emotion is coming from.
ECB, yes I understand that about boundaries but I think I'm still allowed to feel slighted that my mom would so casually invite me to be around him after I bluntly told her I despise this man and will never be around him ever again. I was so taken back by it that I wondered if she was drunk when she did it.
ProfessorArtNerd, my mom has never had friends. Just a husband or boyfriend. She's a major homebody and has shown no interest in making friends. And I'm not sure if I misspoke but the bf was not lurking or doing anything intimidating when we would visit my mom
Bad Dingo, my sister tries to stay out of this argument and hasn't set any boundaries around this situation. My mom has kind of assumed my sister feels the same way. While we haven't had a formal intervention, I've done all of that through text. Both myself and my brother have been very clear about where we stand and why, she knows we are worried about her safety. My mom is almost 60. I think I have to be realistic that she's not going to suddenly start making friends. She is a home body.
circa1978 I greatly appreciate all the responses and advice but I will admit I'm a little confused. I'm not seeking advice to get my mom to leave her relationship. This situation has been going on for almost 2 years, it's clear to me she's not leaving and that I cannot change her mind. My question is about my boundary and my mom's response to it. Logically, I know my boundary is appropriate. But I guess I was just seeking other people's opinion because I was surprised to see my mom react the way she did yesterday.
Unfortunately, you need to let this be letsgetweird. She is not hearing you for any number of reasons. I would caution against just assuming things are face value and I would strongly suspect that more is going on behind-the-scenes.
I would maybe write back one more time and say “Mom, I will happily meet you for lunch when you want! It would be nice for us to catch up jsut the two of us.” It once again shows you are willing to see her and again states you will happiiy see her alone. If she AGAIN wants to decide this means that you’ve abandoned her, then that is ALL in HER head.
One of the hardest things here is to be present without supporting the abuser/abuse as it happens. Reminding her you are there may be a light she needs one day. But, it’s not up to you save her. You have to protect yourself.
Post by circa1978 on Sept 26, 2023 10:54:40 GMT -5
letsgetweird, I assumed that your actions were meant to make your mom see the issues with her BF and leave the situation. I'm sorry I misinterpreted that.
My question is about my boundary and my mom's response to it. Logically, I know my boundary is appropriate. But I guess I was just seeking other people's opinion because I was surprised to see my mom react the way she did yesterday.
Your mom's response to your boundary is, I would guess, not surprising to any of us who are on the outside looking in. I imagine it's rare that someone who has had a boundary set against them just accepts it right away. I think you should expect that she will continue to act surprised/offended when you reiterate your conditions around spending time with her, at least for a little while.
I’m sorry you’re going through this. Stay strong and hold your boundaries. Let you mom know you’ll be there for her when she’s ready. It’s hard to sit back, but like the alcoholic situation, if they don’t want help, they don’t want help. And in my experience, pushing them to change or fix things before they’re ready just pushes them further away and causes them to stay away out of shame of embarrassment.
My question is about my boundary and my mom's response to it. Logically, I know my boundary is appropriate. But I guess I was just seeking other people's opinion because I was surprised to see my mom react the way she did yesterday.
Your mom's response to your boundary is, I would guess, not surprising to any of us who are on the outside looking in. I imagine it's rare that someone who has had a boundary set against them just accepts it right away. I think you should expect that she will continue to act surprised/offended when you reiterate your conditions around spending time with her, at least for a little while.
Yeah this. She may never accept it. But that’s why I said above that you just need to be matter of fact and repeat the same phrase over and over when she asks if you all can hang out. "No I will not spend time with you in the presence of your boyfriend but feel free to make plans just the 2 of us/the family and let me know your availability." There is no reasoning with her and it’s not your fault that she feels abandoned, she is choosing that.
Your mom's response to your boundary is, I would guess, not surprising to any of us who are on the outside looking in. I imagine it's rare that someone who has had a boundary set against them just accepts it right away. I think you should expect that she will continue to act surprised/offended when you reiterate your conditions around spending time with her, at least for a little while.
Yeah this. She may never accept it. But that’s why I said above that you just need to be matter of fact and repeat the same phrase over and over when she asks if you all can hang out. "No I will not spend time with you in the presence of your boyfriend but feel free to make plans just the 2 of us/the family and let me know your availability." There is no reasoning with her and it’s not your fault that she feels abandoned, she is choosing that.
I'll add - in a sense, your mom is doing the same exact thing. She's setting a boundary too - "if you want to see me, you have to see him too". And you don't understand it, you're confused, etc - the same reactions she's having to yours.
Now, don't get me wrong - your boundary is reasonable. Hers is not - she's being reactionary and she's trying to make you feel guilty. But she's letting you know "this is what I'll accept".
Yeah this. She may never accept it. But that’s why I said above that you just need to be matter of fact and repeat the same phrase over and over when she asks if you all can hang out. "No I will not spend time with you in the presence of your boyfriend but feel free to make plans just the 2 of us/the family and let me know your availability." There is no reasoning with her and it’s not your fault that she feels abandoned, she is choosing that.
I'll add - in a sense, your mom is doing the same exact thing. She's setting a boundary too - "if you want to see me, you have to see him too". And you don't understand it, you're confused, etc - the same reactions she's having to yours.
Now, don't get me wrong - your boundary is reasonable. Hers is not - she's being reactionary and she's trying to make you feel guilty. But she's letting you know "this is what I'll accept".
She has not set that boundary though, which is what makes this conversation with her so confusing. If she set that boundary, I would most likely go no contact with her and let her know I'm here when she wants to see me without him.
I know having this convo by text makes things even harder. I don't think she'd be receptive to talking on the phone. Multiple times she's said she didn't want to have this convo anymore. My mom is emotionally stunted imo which has affected me as I have trouble expressing my emotions as well. Making this whole thing far more complicated lol.
When my mom said multiple times yesterday that I had abandoned her, in an attempt to clarify my position, I let her know I'm not asking her to choose between me and him. I told her (again) I'm just saying I will not be in his physical presence. I asked her if she could be away from him for a few hours, which has never been a problem before but I had to ask because of her puzzling responses. She got offended and made it seem like that's a ridiculous question because of course she could be away from him.
I'm just providing some additional context. The whole thing has been very confusing.
I've never had a reason to set a boundary with my mom before so it's obviously difficult for the both of us.
Post by letsgetweird on Sept 26, 2023 12:03:17 GMT -5
I'm sorry for dumping this emotional mess. I obviously do need to see my therapist at the very least to just get this off my chest and get a neutral third party opinion.
There have been some comments about acceptance so I want to address that. I have accepted that my mom has chosen to stay in this relationship and there is nothing I can do to change that. If I thought going NC with her would get her out of the relationship, I would do it. But i know I cannot force my mom. The more difficult thing to accept is this unexpected behavior from my mom. I hope this doesn't sound offensive, but I would have never anticipated that my mom would have accepted this type of relationship. Her choices in this relationship since the time she moved him into her home after 1 week in 2014 has been utterly baffling to me. It's hard to have what you thought was a "normal, stable" parent and for that to be completely flipped upside down.
Post by shopgirl07 on Sept 26, 2023 12:25:18 GMT -5
How old is your Mom? Is it possible that she’s experiencing any medical or cognitive issues? I will say also that it doesn’t sound like she’s exercised any social muscles in a long time and is probably becoming a little odder and more set in her ways as time goes on.
Post by litskispeciality on Sept 26, 2023 12:35:46 GMT -5
OP sending you huge hugs. It sounds like you've gone above and beyond. As others have said private counseling for you will be helpful to navigate your feelings, her reactions, how to proceed. Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but the RAINN organization may have some good resources for you and your family as well, in addition to the person in the abusive relationship.
One thought that comes to mind reading this thread is that your mom is probably being emotionally manipulated and emotionally abused by the BF. I know you said she's a homebody and doesn't have a lot of friends, but he probably likes that as it makes it easier for him to control her and keep her home. I'm not sure if she's pushing back on you to justify staying with him, or he's trying to get her away from you as you're trying to protect her, or both. No matter what it's not ok. He could also be telling her she'll never make it on her own without him, or scaring her in to not leaving him.
I wish I had more, but I want to applaud you for the boundaries you continue to hold, and still support your mother in whatever safe way you can. Sending you big hugs again.
How old is your Mom? Is it possible that she’s experiencing any medical or cognitive issues? I will say also that it doesn’t sound like she’s exercised any social muscles in a long time and is probably becoming a little odder and more set in her ways as time goes on.
She is 58. And not experiencing any medical issues as far as I know.
How old is your Mom? Is it possible that she’s experiencing any medical or cognitive issues? I will say also that it doesn’t sound like she’s exercised any social muscles in a long time and is probably becoming a little odder and more set in her ways as time goes on.
She is 58. And not experiencing any medical issues as far as I know.
Ah, so still very young. But I do think that having no friends has probably really impacted her.
You are doing absolutely nothing wrong by refusing to be around him. You are not cutting your mom off or demanding an either/or. She is the one twisting it to that but you are not. Please see that clearly.
I do wonder, however, if he will let your mom see family without him present. There is a need to isolate the abused in these relationships so I’d worry that her dramatics are more due to the boyfriend’s threats than her true desire to not see you.
Are you therapy? I would recommend as a way to navigate this situation better.
I don't think he has ever tried to isolate her before. In the past when me and my siblings have visited my mom, he would usually go to another area of the house or go outside. So I tend to think he's not doing that. But I suppose it's possible especially with this new escalation. I have no idea if she's telling him about all the arguments we've had around this topic.
I assumed he was isolating her when you said she has no friends. Why doesn't she have friends? Especially since you said she is codependent?
I would also reinforce the boundary by telling her not to even invite you somewhere if he's going to be there. She can't woe is me that you didn't come to the vacation house to swim when she knew you had set that in place. I'm thinking out loud here, you don't have to answer.
I don't think he has ever tried to isolate her before. In the past when me and my siblings have visited my mom, he would usually go to another area of the house or go outside. So I tend to think he's not doing that. But I suppose it's possible especially with this new escalation. I have no idea if she's telling him about all the arguments we've had around this topic.
I assumed he was isolating her when you said she has no friends. Why doesn't she have friends? Especially since you said she is codependent?
I would also reinforce the boundary by telling her not to even invite you somewhere if he's going to be there. She can't woe is me that you didn't come to the vacation house to swim when she knew you had set that in place. I'm thinking out loud here, you don't have to answer.
She said her mom has never had friends, not even when younger, just whoever she was in a relationship with. OP's dad used to try to get her to make friends and she wouldn't.
I assumed he was isolating her when you said she has no friends. Why doesn't she have friends? Especially since you said she is codependent?
I would also reinforce the boundary by telling her not to even invite you somewhere if he's going to be there. She can't woe is me that you didn't come to the vacation house to swim when she knew you had set that in place. I'm thinking out loud here, you don't have to answer.
She said her mom has never had friends, not even when younger, just whoever she was in a relationship with. OP's dad used to try to get her to make friends and she wouldn't.
Thanks. I missed that part, I'm sorry OP that you're in this difficult situation.
She has not set that boundary though, which is what makes this conversation with her so confusing. If she set that boundary, I would most likely go no contact with her and let her know I'm here when she wants to see me without him.
To a degree, this kind of goes to my point, though.
You seem to view a boundary as a verbalized statement told to another person and it's expected the other person will comply, and in turn, you're confused as to why your mother isn't complying.
But that's the point. Boundaries are what you decide for yourself you're going to set for YOUR OWN wellbeing and no one else's. And it's on you and only you to make sure the boundary stays firm. Yes - sometimes we speak these boundaries to others, but it doesn't have to be spoken. And yes, sometimes the other person will actually comply. But often - as is the case here - that doesn't happen.
Your mom has decided for herself that she only wants to see her kids if her BF is included too. That's HER boundary. Doesn't matter if she's actually said that or not - it's clearly an expectation that she's set up for herself and she's trying to enforce it.
This is all just to say that this whole concept of setting boundaries - try to attach as little emotion to it as you can and just keep doing what you know YOU need to do for your own wellbeing. You can't rely on others to respect your choices - which is all that a boundary is. A choice you're making for yourself.