Post by AllieHound on May 27, 2012 18:29:01 GMT -5
I was roofied by someone I went from K-12 with when I was 20 and at his house. I didn't think a single thing about accepting a drink from him because...well, he was my friend. It was at a party with a lot of other people I knew- and I didn't even THINK for a minute that he'd do something like that. Thankfully, I was there with someone who was paying attention, knew something was off, and got me the hellfuck out of there before anything (too) horrible happened.
I will try to teach any daughter of mine that they need to be aware of their surroundings, because the world is an effed up place, and some people will take advantage of any possible weakness they see- walking alone at night, being willing to accept a beverage, what have you. NONE of that would be her fault- at all, because under no circumstances is it okay for someone to violate another person- ever, no matter what- and even if she's passed out buttass naked in the middle of a freaking mob of drunk frat guys does anyone have the right to violate her- but that some people are fucked in the head, and violent- and that, although it's not her responsibility, it is a good idea to mitigate that risk whenever possible.
And, needless to say, we will be teaching Max that the only consent that counts is affirmative consent- not saying "no" is not enough- yes must be said, repeatedly and often, for it to count. Obviously, this changes (it's not like H asks me for consent at every level of activity) based on relationship status- but if he wants to whore it up, he better get consent. And if he ever sees someone violating someone else- like, say, the assholes at that party that knew what was going on- he's just as guilty as the guy who put it in there.
I'm also tired of "we need to teach our daughters not to drink too much at parties". Yes but more importantly, we need to teach our sons that it's not acceptable to have sex with someone who's too drunk to say no.
I'm also tired of "we need to teach our daughters not to drink too much at parties". Yes but more importantly, we need to teach our sons that it's not acceptable to have sex with someone who's too drunk to say no.
I'm also tired of "we need to teach our daughters not to drink too much at parties". Yes but more importantly, we need to teach our sons that it's not acceptable to have sex with someone who's too drunk to say no.
I wanted to read all the comments before I posted but this is exactly what I was going to say. As both a victim and a mother of 2 boys, I don't see this as a "teach our daughters" issue at all. I was 16 and sober. I lost my virginity to that fucking asshole. There was nothing my mother could have taught me that would have prevented it. I won't blame his mother either but rape isn't about sex- it's about power and control. I will make damn sure my sons know it's never ok to take that control from a woman, or a girl for that matter.
I was roofied by someone I went from K-12 with when I was 20 and at his house. I didn't think a single thing about accepting a drink from him because...well, he was my friend. It was at a party with a lot of other people I knew- and I didn't even THINK for a minute that he'd do something like that. Thankfully, I was there with someone who was paying attention, knew something was off, and got me the hellfuck out of there before anything (too) horrible happened.
I will try to teach any daughter of mine that they need to be aware of their surroundings, because the world is an effed up place, and some people will take advantage of any possible weakness they see- walking alone at night, being willing to accept a beverage, what have you. NONE of that would be her fault- at all, because under no circumstances is it okay for someone to violate another person- ever, no matter what- and even if she's passed out buttass naked in the middle of a freaking mob of drunk frat guys does anyone have the right to violate her- but that some people are fucked in the head, and violent- and that, although it's not her responsibility, it is a good idea to mitigate that risk whenever possible.
And, needless to say, we will be teaching Max that the only consent that counts is affirmative consent- not saying "no" is not enough- yes must be said, repeatedly and often, for it to count. Obviously, this changes (it's not like H asks me for consent at every level of activity) based on relationship status- but if he wants to whore it up, he better get consent. And if he ever sees someone violating someone else- like, say, the assholes at that party that knew what was going on- he's just as guilty as the guy who put it in there.
so did you beat the shit out of that asshole or what?
I'm also tired of "we need to teach our daughters not to drink too much at parties". Yes but more importantly, we need to teach our sons that it's not acceptable to have sex with someone who's too drunk to say no.
I'm also tired of "we need to teach our daughters not to drink too much at parties". Yes but more importantly, we need to teach our sons that it's not acceptable to have sex with someone who's too drunk to say no.
Nope. Not more important. Equally important.
I think teaching men not to rape is more important than teaching women how to protect themselves from rape. If men didn't rape, women wouldn't need to protect themselves from situations where they could be raped.
I'm also tired of "we need to teach our daughters not to drink too much at parties". Yes but more importantly, we need to teach our sons that it's not acceptable to have sex with someone who's too drunk to say no.
Nope. Not more important. Equally important.
Equally important to teach our daughters not to rape men, I agree.
I'm also tired of "we need to teach our daughters not to drink too much at parties". Yes but more importantly, we need to teach our sons that it's not acceptable to have sex with someone who's too drunk to say no.
I agree that we need to move away from the societal stereotypes that praise men for acting on their baser instincts. It's not the woman's fault that she was raped, it's the men who think it's acceptable that are 100% in the wrong.
I 100% agree with this and I should have put it in with what we teach young women. Yes, we absolutely should be teaching young men that it is never ok to violate a woman in any way, shape or form. I apologize for leaving that part out.
I'm also tired of "we need to teach our daughters not to drink too much at parties". Yes but more importantly, we need to teach our sons that it's not acceptable to have sex with someone who's too drunk to say no.
Nope. Not more important. Equally important.
But it isn't equal. "Don't rape" is more important than "Don't drink."
I think teaching children to be responsible people who respect each other and do not put themselves into positions where they could be easily taken advantage of/take advantage of another is equally important no matter the sex.
Why is it that the women are the guardians of their virginity because men are at the mercy of their pricks and raging hormones, and the mere presence of a woman in a room with men and alcohol is inherent permission to have sex with them, willingly or not? Drugs, roofies, too drunk, passed out...what makes it okay? That's what should make it NOT okay!
Who said anything about it being anything close to ok?!! Why does saying that females need to be aware of and avoid situations where they can be more easily taken advantage of automatically mean men are given a free pass to think with their dicks? Its not an either or thing here.
The best thing a person can do is keep themselves away from being at the mercy of horrible people. That does not mean that if they fail to do so and get hurt in one way or another (raped, robbed, murdered) that they "deserved" it or somehow are to blame for the action. And it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that the person being horrible isn't at fault. It simply means that if they have responsibility for making themselves vulnerable. Not the act itself.
I think teaching children to be responsible people who respect each other and do not put themselves into positions where they could be easily taken advantage of/take advantage of another is equally important no matter the sex.
Disagree. it's more important to teach, no matter the sex, that you do NOT take advantage of another person.
You can teach a girl to avoid being a victim, but as long as there are people out there who think it's okay to violate her because of the "position" she's in, there will be more victims just like her. And more apologists saying that it's her fault because she didn't know better.
I'm also tired of "we need to teach our daughters not to drink too much at parties". Yes but more importantly, we need to teach our sons that it's not acceptable to have sex with someone who's too drunk to say no.
Nope. Not more important. Equally important.
No, NOT equally important.
Rapes occur regardless of the behavior of victims. Women don't have to be drunk to be raped. Women don't have to be dressed provocatively to be raped. Women don't have to be walking alone late at night to be raped. Women don't have to forget to lock their doors to be raped. Women don't have to necessarily be doing ANYTHING "unsafe" in order to be raped.
And that's because rape isn't just about sex; sometimes it isn't about sex at all - it's about power. About the rapist taking power away from the victim, whatever the circumstances.
That fact alone makes it MORE important to teach men that having sex without affirmative consent, REGARDLESS of the circumstances, is NEVER okay.
I guess I'm trying to understand the "teaching not to rape". It seems to me that's like saying we need to teach our kids "not to murder". I would think that generally speaking people know that rape is wrong just like they know murder is wrong....unless they are a murderer or a rapist.
Perhaps it's not that we need to teach that rape is wrong, but that we need to teach what constitutes as rape?
it's more important to teach, no matter the sex, that you do NOT take advantage of another person.
You can teach a girl to avoid being a victim, but as long as there are people out there who think it's okay to violate her because of the "position" she's in, there will be more victims just like her. And more apologists saying that it's her fault because she didn't know better.
And the fact that there are apologists is what aggravates me. And that women "need to be taught to protect themselves." What about teaching the men so that women DON'T have these risks just because they're doing the same thing that everyone around them is doing - getting (overly) drunk, having fun and being stupid. 2V, you make an excellent point as to teaching what constitutes rape, but shouldn't it be common sense by now, as often as this is in the news, that "if she can't say no then that doesn't mean yes." There's an apalling lack of education regarding personal boundaries and acceptable behaviors when someone old enough to drive, vote, shoot and drink doesn't know this.
The more I thought about this post today, the more upset over it I got, Seesaw's analogy aside.
I think we can all agree that we would all do everything we could to educate the young women in our lives - daughters, younger sisters, cousins, whoever - to do what they could to protect themselves. Stay in control. Be aware of your surroundings. Don't let anyone get you a drink you don't know. And then we will send these young women in our lives out into the world and hope to whatever that they remember these things and they take our advice seriously.
But come on. Are any of you seriously going to say that if someone got raped because they didn't 'follow the rules' to a t, you would look at them any point and do any sort of finger wagging, or even dare tell them "Well, if you didn't get so drunk...."? Do you not think if that happened to them, they wouldn't be kicking themselves 6 ways from Sunday without someone adding blame to them on top of them?
Ditto Arborgold. The victim is NEVER to blame. Period. End of story. Nothing a woman does - drunk, high - is any consent to having a man shove his dick in any part of her body.
:Y: It's equally important to teach women how to avoid (potential) situations because rape occurs. If it didn't occur, it would be a nonissue. But, it occurs, so we should be protecting ourselves as much as we can.
I guess I'm trying to understand the "teaching not to rape". It seems to me that's like saying we need to teach our kids "not to murder". I would think that generally speaking people know that rape is wrong just like they know murder is wrong....unless they are a murderer or a rapist.
Perhaps it's not that we need to teach that rape is wrong, but that we need to teach what constitutes as rape?
Yes, good points. I think there is no amount of positive instruction that will forever eradicate murder, rape, theft, pedophilia and all the other dark things human are capable of.
So we don't give up, we teach kids and adults how to treat each other. But even the best support will not influence a few.
So equipping our daughters AND sons with some knowledge and skills that might help protect them from those who mean them harm is not victim blaming. It's doing what little you can to up the odds for your vulnerable child in a dangerous world.
I am a victim, and I still wish I'd been talked to frankly about all kinds of things before it happened at age 14. My mom still doesn't know. It's not her fault. It's solely his fault.
And no, motherfucker, I will not be your Facebook friend. Quit asking. Clearly you can't remember what you did 20 yrs ago to a 14 yr old when you were 18.
I guess I'm trying to understand the "teaching not to rape". It seems to me that's like saying we need to teach our kids "not to murder". I would think that generally speaking people know that rape is wrong just like they know murder is wrong....unless they are a murderer or a rapist.
Perhaps it's not that we need to teach that rape is wrong, but that we need to teach what constitutes as rape?
I think you might have a point on this, 2V. I'm searching high and low and kicking myself for not saving the more recent study (just came out this year). But a rather large percentage of men in the study, when asked questions about sexual behavior, admitted they had engaged in sexual behavior that would constitute rape. But I'm sure the vast majority of those same men wouldn't consider themselves rapist.
Which is precisely why my point above was that we need to be teaching children that sex without mutual, non-coerced affirmative consent, regardless of the circumstances, is NEVER okay.
Can someone tell me why they think I'm male? Would it be surprising or matter at all in this discussion if I was a female who has been raped multiple times?
I do not think a victim of rape in the situation under discussion, getting drunk alone and passing out at a frat party, is responsible for the rape. I think she is responsible for putting herself in a stupid situation where rapists could easily get her.
Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to stake themselves out spread eagle and naked on a frat house lawn on Thursday night is whack. Yes, in a fairytale dream land, maybe you could do that and no one would rape you because rape is wrong. In real life, there are bad people.
I lock up my car and house. People shouldn't invade my stuff and steal anything. I feel the thieves would be the ones who committed the crime, but I would be responsible for my own foolishness if I left everything wide open for them and they took the invite.
If I had a daughter, I would not teach her that she can make herself vulnerable or do naked cartwheels downtown and expect no one to molest her. Why do mom's even tell their little girls to be careful, don't go off with stranger and don't be stupid when having fun? Is it because no one should rape or murder them or because no one would or could?
Rape victims, I'm sorry you had to go through such horribleness. No one blames you for the crime committed against you. Not a single person has posted that idea besides the first one we're commenting on. For those of you that still feel fear, self defense lessons could help. It's a freaky thing to tussle with someone stronger and feel them overcome your strength. I understand that freaky feeling completely and the trauma that can result. There are techniques the physically weak can use to overcome a stronger attacker. I think all girls should learn them.
Whoever didn't report your rape, I think you should have.
Can someone tell me why they think I'm male? Would it be surprising or matter at all in this discussion if I was a female who has been raped multiple times?
I do not think a victim of rape in the situation under discussion, getting drunk alone and passing out at a frat party, is responsible for the rape. I think she is responsible for putting herself in a stupid situation where rapists could easily get her.
Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to stake themselves out spread eagle and naked on a frat house lawn on Thursday night is whack. Yes, in a fairytale dream land, maybe you could do that and no one would rape you because rape is wrong. In real life, there are bad people.
I lock up my car and house. People shouldn't invade my stuff and steal anything. I feel the thieves would be the ones who committed the crime, but I would be responsible for my own foolishness if I left everything wide open for them and they took the invite.
If I had a daughter, I would not teach her that she can make herself vulnerable or do naked cartwheels downtown and expect no one to molest her. Why do mom's even tell their little girls to be careful, don't go off with stranger and don't be stupid when having fun? Is it because no one should rape or murder them or because no one would or could?
Rape victims, I'm sorry you had to go through such horribleness. No one blames you for the crime committed against you. Not a single person has posted that idea besides the first one we're commenting on. For those of you that still feel fear, self defense lessons could help. It's a freaky thing to tussle with someone stronger and feel them overcome your strength. I understand that freaky feeling completely and the trauma that can result. There are techniques the physically weak can use to overcome a stronger attacker. I think all girls should learn them.
Whoever didn't report your rape, I think you should have.
Apparently you do. See the second paragraph of your response where you say "I think she is responsible for putting herself in a stupid situation where rapists could easily get her."