A lot. And I didn't think anyone was attacking me for my age. I didn't get why you guys didn't understand, even a LITTLE bit, where I was coming from because WE ARE ALL MOMS! I am really upset about this now because I feel like everyone thinks I'm a huge douchebag and can't understand other peoples perspectives. I can. I am just horrible at clarifying and writing good responses.
You dig and dig and dig, that's why.
But even I don't think you're a douchebag. I do think you can be really naive, though.
Sent from the future.
You're right, I do. I am always trying to dig myself out but I always just go deeper. I think though that its easy for everyone to jump on me, so you do... which makes it harder and harder to dig yourself out. I always stick around, but maybe I shouldn't anymore. This isn't a post getting people to beg. But wasn't it said in threads before, that you guys should just SAY if you don't want someone here. If you don't want me here anymore, I'll leave..
This is certainly true. But the reciprocal is also true that a stigma exists that those (especially in today's current society) who get married and have children very young are "missing out" on so many life experiences. it is also implied often in our society that such individuals never lived at all. I think this is also as unfair as those who are constantly questioned and scrutinized for having kids later or never. I feel there's no happy medium, unless you wait until 30 to get married, wait until 34 to procreate, all whilst traveling, educating yourself, and enjoying socially defined "finer" things in life. And while that is certainly okay, and perfectly reasonable for some, it's not universally wanted by all. I think we just allow way too much scrutiny in general for people's lifestyle choices. I think it's also generally normal if you are extremely happy in life to feel sympathetic towards others who don't know your particular brand of joy. On all sides.
Maybe it's the Bible Belt, but no one gave me crap about getting married at 21. Also, I was not bucking the heteronormative societal standards, and neither are any other young wives and moms. But those who choose to remain childless are bucking a LOT of socialization and stereotypes about what it means to be a woman. They are literally seen as defective women. In our heteronormative, patriarchal society, the two choices don't even begin to compare, even if I did get a little shit for my choices.
Totally agree. Women who choose not to have children are considered weird in my area. I guess not weird....but its what people talk about.
Post by erniebufflo on Jan 10, 2013 14:32:19 GMT -5
Criticizing a point of view or point is not the same thing as suggesting someone should not be allowed to have it or making judgments about them as a person. And whether or not someone was intentionally insulting doesn't make a point any less...myopic. In fact, it's all the more important to point out when the point is offensive in that case, so the person hopefully won't make the same mistake again.
People who do not want to go on cruises generally do not have that decision questioned by everyone in their life, as if that choice makes them a defective human. Or suggests that at some point, their biological cruise clock will kick in and override their conscious desires. Or suggest to them that they don't know their own mind. Or that they will seriously regret their decision to never go on a cruise later in life. I think cruises sound fucking terrible, but no one gives me shit about it. However, those who choose to remain childless face stigma at every turn. Your statement sounded condescending, which is why I had an issue with it. People who know what they want and go after it are generally satisfied, as you are with your choices.
This is certainly true. But the reciprocal is also true that a stigma exists that those (especially in today's current society) who get married and have children very young are "missing out" on so many life experiences. it is also implied often in our society that such individuals never lived at all. I think this is also as unfair as those who are constantly questioned and scrutinized for having kids later or never. I feel there's no happy medium, unless you wait until 30 to get married, wait until 34 to procreate, all whilst traveling, educating yourself, and enjoying socially defined "finer" things in life. And while that is certainly okay, and perfectly reasonable for some, it's not universally wanted by all. I think we just allow way too much scrutiny in general for people's lifestyle choices. I think it's also generally normal if you are extremely happy in life to feel sympathetic towards others who don't know your particular brand of joy. On all sides.
I agree with all this. People criticize everybody for everything. I got married young and had a kid young, by me and my families standards (23 and 26). But I also know if I didn't have a kid by 40 people would start asking.
The people I hang out with, having a kid young is more stigmatized than not having a kid at all.
Being a mom doesn't give you a free pass to believe that your way of life is the only acceptable one. Just fartin'.
OH my gosh. Now please, WHEN did I say that it was the only acceptable one?! Come on now. That is a low blow.
It's just a more bold way of describing your thought process. You don't understand people who are happy without children. I don't see how it's a low blow.
I guess from reading this my UO is....I didn't find Sprinkles offensive. I think I got what she meant in the sense of it was just her POV. Sometimes I read what someone says and assume I know what they meant. So maybe I did that and that's why it didn't offend me.
This is certainly true. But the reciprocal is also true that a stigma exists that those (especially in today's current society) who get married and have children very young are "missing out" on so many life experiences. it is also implied often in our society that such individuals never lived at all. I think this is also as unfair as those who are constantly questioned and scrutinized for having kids later or never. I feel there's no happy medium, unless you wait until 30 to get married, wait until 34 to procreate, all whilst traveling, educating yourself, and enjoying socially defined "finer" things in life. And while that is certainly okay, and perfectly reasonable for some, it's not universally wanted by all. I think we just allow way too much scrutiny in general for people's lifestyle choices. I think it's also generally normal if you are extremely happy in life to feel sympathetic towards others who don't know your particular brand of joy. On all sides.
Maybe it's the Bible Belt, but no one gave me crap about getting married at 21. Also, I was not bucking the heteronormative societal standards, and neither are any other young wives and moms. But those who choose to remain childless are bucking a LOT of socialization and stereotypes about what it means to be a woman. They are literally seen as defective women. In our heteronormative, patriarchal society, the two choices don't even begin to compare, even if I did get a little shit for my choices.
I was agreeing with you, Ernie, there certainly is an intense movement and severe line of questioning for people choosing not to have children. And I wasn't saying that you personally were opposing the choice to marry and start a family young. I just quoted you because you accurately hit the nail on the head for one side of the opposition so it would be easier to present my perspective. The two are comparable though, that's where I disagree. And societal norms have certainly changed over time in many places to accept leniency on proper marital age or status. We've established, even on this board, that geographic location dictates a lot about what is acceptable in terms of life stage for marriage and children. Back in the Northeast, getting married and having children so young is definitely scrutinized and frowned upon, even pitied. The focus is on career, personal success, and society defined "well roundedness," prior to marriage, if you do get married at all. So I am just pointing out that younger couples do face a lot of intense heat for their choices too, and I know quite a lot who were pitied as if their lives had been in fact, wasted.
Oh my biological cruise clock, vagina fog horns.... /dead
Resurrected: If you asked me 10 years ago (22.5 year old KKFeb) about kids one day, I would have said hell no. Yes, I was engaged to DH but kids weren't for us. Fast forward to 8/04 (6 months after the wedding) my biological cruise clock and foghorn went fucking ballistic after being told that the chances of DH and I of having a biological child without major medical intervention were non-existent. To have something ripped from you that you didn't even want really puts things in perspective. I never knew how much I wanted to be a mom until I heard those words, I'm sorry you can't have children. They suck. I needed those years (mid-20s) to mature (I wasn't immature) and grow to become the mother I am today.
Post by Regina Philange on Jan 10, 2013 14:44:20 GMT -5
Someone actually told me sorry you had a kid and ruined your life and can't have a proper NYE. A cuntlicker of a coworker.
I'm 28 which is old to many of you. where i live many people view me as 12 years old having a kid. I also got married at 23. Imagine the shit i got for that? on the other end of the scale, when I was 25 and visiting Indiana one of my MIL asked if I was unable to reproduce. The fact I was married two years w no child was unheard of.
Thanks some of you. I am so glad you guys knew what I was trying to say and in no way was I trying to be offensive. therealmc... you're right. I shouldn't feel sorry. But you got what I MEANT. And jamaica, I LOLed a baby love... thats what I mean! All I want to do is spread the love..
I can see why it was offensive. I have a friend who doesn't want kids and I totally get it. She thinks she would be a bad mom so I'm glad she doesn't want them. Whereas I knew I would be a kickass mom so I wanted some.
Also hoody, you best answer that cruises call or else there won't be a cruise around to take care of you when you are older.
And who wants to end up in a nursing home, when you could have a cruise changing your adult diapers? No one, that's who.
Guys, seriously, sprinkles didn't come out and say their life was wasted and their choices sucked and they were losers for choosing their lifestyle. She just said she felt bad that they would never know the love she feels with her child and it is hard to understand why someone wouldn't want to feel that love. She even agreed with all of your points as to why she shouldn't feel bad for them. I lurve the drama but ease up just a bit on the personal attacks, yes?
I can't really get it through my head how some people don't want kids. I have always wanted a baby/children, and now that I have one... aah.. I can't imagine never having a child. I get not wanting to be pregnant and adopting...but never having a child to raise, be yours, anything!? Blows my mind. Wouldn't those people get sooo bored with their lifestyle?! Example.... my SIL. Her and her husband will most likely never have kids. She'll be 39 and he's 40. They both have their PhD's and are college professors in TX. They don't want kids. I can see it with their lifestyle, but it still makes me sad for them I guess...again, I just can't imagine not having a child or wanting one.
I went back and reread this. I still don't see the offense. She's saying she doesn't understand it from her POV. I get that. I love M so much that I can't understand the choice in not wanting children.....but I CAN understand everyone is different and that is their choice. My opinion....people are reading too into it. Is it because its Sprinkles and she does this, then backtracks, tries to explain....etc??
Guys, seriously, sprinkles didn't come out and say their life was wasted and their choices sucked and they were losers for choosing their lifestyle. She just said she felt bad that they would never know the love she feels with her child and it is hard to understand why someone wouldn't want to feel that love. She even agreed with all of your points as to why she shouldn't feel bad for them. I lurve the drama but ease up just a bit on the personal attacks, yes?
I really love you. You just made my day a lot better :heart:
Guys, seriously, sprinkles didn't come out and say their life was wasted and their choices sucked and they were losers for choosing their lifestyle. She just said she felt bad that they would never know the love she feels with her child and it is hard to understand why someone wouldn't want to feel that love. She even agreed with all of your points as to why she shouldn't feel bad for them. I lurve the drama but ease up just a bit on the personal attacks, yes?
I see no personal attacks, if by personal attacks you mean people insulting her as a person. I've stuck to the points. And feeling bad that no one can possibly know true love unless they love a child is exactly the sort of standard stigma childless-by-choice people face. I hated hearing that shit before I had kids. I honestly don't think the love I have for my husband is any different than that for my kids, and perhaps the love for my husband is more intense because I literally choose it rather than being held in it by biology and the fact that they put you on the evening news if you abandon your children.
Guys, seriously, sprinkles didn't come out and say their life was wasted and their choices sucked and they were losers for choosing their lifestyle. She just said she felt bad that they would never know the love she feels with her child and it is hard to understand why someone wouldn't want to feel that love. She even agreed with all of your points as to why she shouldn't feel bad for them. I lurve the drama but ease up just a bit on the personal attacks, yes?
Post by rainbowchip on Jan 10, 2013 14:52:19 GMT -5
I'm with Laura. Sprinkles, you seem to have a pattern of just not being able to see other peoples point of view. And you come off as judgy to people who don't share your POV.
I don't really care if you stay or if you go, but you will get flamed if you aren't able to open your mind. And if your excuse is that you can't explain yourself properly, maybe you just shouldn't post. I can't count the number of times I've written an entire post and then deleted before posting it because it didn't come across the way I intended or I couldn't back it up if I was questioned on it.
Guys, seriously, sprinkles didn't come out and say their life was wasted and their choices sucked and they were losers for choosing their lifestyle. She just said she felt bad that they would never know the love she feels with her child and it is hard to understand why someone wouldn't want to feel that love. She even agreed with all of your points as to why she shouldn't feel bad for them. I lurve the drama but ease up just a bit on the personal attacks, yes?
I see no personal attacks, if by personal attacks you mean people insulting her as a person. I've stuck to the points. And feeling bad that no one can possibly know true love unless they love a child is exactly the sort of standard stigma childless-by-choice people face. I hated hearing that shit before I had kids. I honestly don't think the love I have for my husband is any different than that for my kids, and perhaps the love for my husband is more intense because I literally choose it rather than being held in it by biology and the fact that they put you on the evening news if you abandon your children.
You just seem to be really laying it into her. FTR just because I said I didn't know what unconditional love was before I had Louie doesn't mean I didn't love before I had him. I love mad people. But it's different.
I see no personal attacks, if by personal attacks you mean people insulting her as a person. I've stuck to the points. And feeling bad that no one can possibly know true love unless they love a child is exactly the sort of standard stigma childless-by-choice people face. I hated hearing that shit before I had kids. I honestly don't think the love I have for my husband is any different than that for my kids, and perhaps the love for my husband is more intense because I literally choose it rather than being held in it by biology and the fact that they put you on the evening news if you abandon your children.
You just seem to be really laying it into her. FTR just because I said I didn't know what unconditional love was before I had Louie doesn't mean I didn't love before I had him. I love mad people. But it's different.
It's a forum. Back and forth and discussion and argument is pretty much why I'm here.