And with that, I'm out for a bit. If y'all have other questions, leave them here and I'll try and find some of the newer research I can find on the subject.
Oh, and if anyone's interested, there's actually a symposium happening a Fordham on the 7th of this month on the difference between sex work and sex trafficking.
Okay, thanks for answering my question. I guess my concern with sex work (minus my own views on children having sex which I am sure makes me biased) is that if you start that at 12-14 you are typically talking about a time period when children are going through a lot of changes, including hormonal changes that really do influence their behavior with regards to sex that isn't necessarily comparable to anything else. And then secondarily how easy or hard it is to get out of sex work and do something new if you decide on that path. I think even if you work at a vet office at 12-14 no one would encourage you to only do that. Do child sex workers still go to school? Do they have other options? And if they don't how does that play into choice? Can a 12-14 year old make major life decisions and have them be categorized as a choice?
To take your vet example say the child's parents are vets and she thinks that's the only option for her. I would be of the opinion it wasn't really a choice for her and she was coerced. So I guess what I'm saying is I don't think 12-14 year old kids can necessarily make choices. Sex work or not. And if they do choose sex work how much of a choice is it really as an adult if you made the decision at 12.
Oh and one more question - how far do you think destigmatizing this should go with regards to underage people? I guess I think they are an at risk group for abuse and other issues so while I can see the arguments for making sex work legal and protected, I don't think underage should be included.
I think I answered that above w/ my PS on why I wasn't in favor of child sex work, but if I didn't, let me know, and I'll try and answer it later. I need to take a break from this for a bit.
Post by iammalcolmx on Feb 2, 2013 13:04:04 GMT -5
Ain't no way 12-14 years olds choose to be prostitutes without having tragedies in their upbringing making them vuneralble. And when tha's the case it isnt a choice. Anyone who says them consenting to such is a certified piece of shit.
ETA: FWIW, I'm uncomfortable with underage sex workers, because I believe being educated can help sex workers negotiate better working conditions for themselves, and will help them with other life skills - NOT because I believe that underage sex workers are incapable of consciously deciding that they like sex enough to want to earn a living from it.
I won't beat around the bush. That is truly horrifying to me. The teenage brain does not process risk, reward, and influences the way adults' brains do. They are physically less capable of making rational, well-informed decisions. Allowing children to enter the sex trade because "they like sex" is ridiculous. I can't believe this isn't a Unity Horse issue.
We don't even let 14 year olds drive cars FFS! This is really horrifying me, that anyone thinks a 14 year old is capable of choosing to sell sex.
Honestly, to me this is dangerously close to "she was asking for it."
If 12 year olds are capable of choosing to have sex for money, then they're perfectly capable of choosing to have sex with their 40 year old uncle too right?
Kids don't get to vote, they don't get to drink, they don't get to go to war, we restrict when they can drive. Also, they don't get to have sex with adults. So they can hump like bunnies...with other teenagers, for free, but they can wait until 18 to decide to be a sex worker. And I think sex work should be legal. For adults.
Post by iammalcolmx on Feb 2, 2013 14:02:01 GMT -5
Also there are tons of sex workers in Rio. I hang out at the hooker part of the beach and the hooker bar and club. Why? Cause its FUN and the girls are cool. Plenty of them choose it because of the economic conditions and do it to supplement income because normal jobs don't pay the bills. That said they are not KIDS! I can't believe the subject of child sex workers is even being kinda debated. Again if you think kids sex work is OK you ain't shit.
All of this gets back to my question about choice I guess. I fundamentally disagree that children can choose sex work so I do wonder how those who get involved in it early relate to the idea of sex workers making a choice and wanting that career. I guess then for me the question is what IS the average age when people who choose sex work start. If its as young as the DOJ average age stat, I'm of the opinion that its not really a choice.
I'm not trying to stigmatize sex work at all. I'm just trying to understand how we determine people are choosing it.
How can underage even make this choice? Statutory rape? How does that not come into play. And, to preface, I have spoken with sex workers and with victims of rape. So, I know the difference. I've never spoken to sex trafficked people, but underage---how can you be rational and say people CHOOSE this? They are not old enough to make such a decision, imo, and in many places, legally. It is NOT the same as people who choose to work busing tables at the local restaurant.
I have a question that relates to some of our recent discussions about sex workers. If the average age someone starts as a prostitute is at 12 or 14, how does that play into the idea that sex workers want to do this job? I can accept that some want to but do the workers who want to do it that we've seen discussed here start around that age or as legal adults or a mix? Because I have a hard time getting behind the idea that someone who starts this at age 12 really is making a choice. I guess my question is whether the things arbor has brought up recently control for the age people start.
The woman from the anti-human trafficking organization I met said that the average life expectancy for these girls who are abducted and forced into this at 12 or 14 is only 7 years. The women you see who are 25 or so were likely not abducted at 12.
"One little girl finally told her captor just to kill her - she couldn’t do it anymore. The pimp refused, telling her he makes too much money off her. If she wouldn’t do what he told her to, he would kidnap her 8-year-old little sister and pour battery acid over her face while she watched. The little girl complied, living in a dog cage when she wasn’t being sold to man after man."
While I think that legalized sex work will cut down on disgusting abuses like trafficking, I don't think that kids should be able to choose to do it. Kids can't do a lot of jobs, and that's okay. A lot of things take a certain degree of maturity and mental/legal understanding, and I'm perfectly comfortable with 18 being the cutoff for those things. What would even be the point of having a minor designation for people if not to protect them from things like sex work or going to war, or other things dangerous and requiring a certain level of maturity and responsibility. 12-14 year olds don't need to support themselves (in this country). Parents or the state do. They are sexual beings, and it's one thing for them to have sex with other teenagers, but not for adults to take advantage of them. So I am in agreement with your ETA paragraph up there about educating these girls, arbor. I think the marginalization of sex work makes it more doable for 12-14-year-olds and that's a huge problem. So, in short, legalize it for the 18+ crowd. Prosecute these assholes who traffic people to the fullest extent of the law. Educate young women and girls. And boys, so they don't grow up to be men who think it's hot to have sex with a drugged out 14-year-old. Fucking horrible.
Amen. And, the men, or women, that choose to have sex with these "workers" are pedophiles. I can't even believe this is a discussion.
Ain't no way 12-14 years olds choose to be prostitutes without having tragedies in their upbringing making them vuneralble. And when tha's the case it isnt a choice. Anyone who says them consenting to such is a certified piece of shit.
Ditto. Arbor, saying 12-14yo can choose this is beyond disgusting.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think anyone here was advocating that underage sex work should be legal. Arbor only pointed to a study that reports many of the underage sex workers do not have pimps, which implies they're in the business willingly.
Kids don't get to vote, they don't get to drink, they don't get to go to war, we restrict when they can drive. Also, they don't get to have sex with adults. So they can hump like bunnies...with other teenagers, for free, but they can wait until 18 to decide to be a sex worker. And I think sex work should be legal. For adults.
This is where I am. I can decide I want to be in the military when I'm 12, but I'm still not allowed to do it until I'm 18. This is for very good reason. You can't even be a truck driver, a legit career path, when underage, and that's not nearly as emotionally complex a decision.
I get I think where arbor is coming from with stigma issue. If a girl decides when she's under 18 that she wants to do sex work, we shouldn't stigmatize it. It's as valid a career choice as many others. But, actually doing it at that age is a different issue. That ain't right. It's the same way I wouldn't want a 12 year old going to do military drills on the weekend and deploying during the summer breaks. Part of having an age requirement is trying to ensure people reach a level of maturity to make certain weighty decisions.
Maybe, though, some of the issue is that all sex work is illegal. So a teen girl who decides she wants to do that has no incentive to wait until 18, because it's illegal either way. It doesn't mean she's damaged or abused automatically. She's still has the same background she would have had if she'd waited until 18. The difference is, what a girl wants at 14 may look entirely different than a slightly her slightly more mature self at 18. This is not to imply that choosing sex work itself is an immature decision.
There's really no halfway, either, like cleaning cages in a vet's office if you want to go to veterinary school. Even the military has a sort of halfway with JROTC.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think anyone here was advocating that underage sex work should be legal. Arbor only pointed to a study that reports many of the underage sex workers do not have pimps, which implies they're in the business willingly.
Which is disgusting because there is no way a normal kid that age decides to be in the sex trade like that. Hence the outrage.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think anyone here was advocating that underage sex work should be legal. Arbor only pointed to a study that reports many of the underage sex workers do not have pimps, which implies they're in the business willingly.
I agree with this. I think arbor was pointing out that not at 12-14-year-olds are trafficked.
I get that, but they shouldn't be able to and any even hint that they choose this, as if they are mentally prepared, is appalling and gross.
Kids don't get to vote, they don't get to drink, they don't get to go to war, we restrict when they can drive. Also, they don't get to have sex with adults. So they can hump like bunnies...with other teenagers, for free, but they can wait until 18 to decide to be a sex worker. And I think sex work should be legal. For adults.
This is where I am. I can decide I want to be in the military when I'm 12, but I'm still not allowed to do it until I'm 18. This is for very good reason. You can't even be a truck driver, a legit career path, when underage, and that's not nearly as emotionally complex a decision.
I get I think where arbor is coming from with stigma issue. If a girl decides when she's under 18 that she wants to do sex work, we shouldn't stigmatize it. It's as valid a career choice as many others. But, actually doing it at that age is a different issue. That ain't right. It's the same way I wouldn't want a 12 year old going to do military drills on the weekend and deploying during the summer breaks. Part of having an age requirement is trying to ensure people reach a level of maturity to make certain weighty decisions.
Maybe, though, some of the issue is that all sex work is illegal. So a teen girl who decides she wants to do that has no incentive to wait until 18, because it's illegal either way. It doesn't mean she's damaged or abused automatically. She's still has the same background she would have had if she'd waited until 18. The difference is, what a girl wants at 14 may look entirely different than a slightly her slightly more mature self at 18. This is not to imply that choosing sex work itself is an immature decision.
There's really no halfway, either, like cleaning cages in a vet's office if you want to go to veterinary school. Even the military has a sort of halfway with JROTC.
Post by iammalcolmx on Feb 2, 2013 14:33:54 GMT -5
BTW, I jut said goodbye to my friend and neighbor who is taking his tidings on a three week trip to Asia to help rescue folks from being trafficked so excuse me if I am a little snippy today.
I can't help but feel like saying "well, women and girls choose this line of work" is a great way to dismiss the whole trafficking issue altogether.
And I would argue that's exactly the reason that we (universal we) need to stop conflating sex work and sex trafficking. No one being trafficked chooses to be in the trade (at least not at first).
I can't help but feel like saying "well, women and girls choose this line of work" is a great way to dismiss the whole trafficking issue altogether.
And I would argue that's exactly the reason that we (universal we) need to stop conflating sex work and sex trafficking. No one being trafficked chooses to be in the trade (at least not at first).
How does conflating sex work and sex trafficking allow people to dismiss trafficking? To me it seems like the opposite - if it's a perfectly legitimate choice of work for anyone, including 12 year olds, why do we need to be so concerned about it? It allows people to say "well, what's the big deal? She chose to be a prostitute."
And I would argue that's exactly the reason that we (universal we) need to stop conflating sex work and sex trafficking. No one being trafficked chooses to be in the trade (at least not at first).
How does conflating sex work and sex trafficking allow people to dismiss trafficking? To me it seems like the opposite - if it's a perfectly legitimate choice of work for anyone, including 12 year olds, why do we need to be so concerned about it? It allows people to say "well, what's the big deal? She chose to be a prostitute."
Because being trafficked isn't a choice? Maybe I'm not being clear here...
I don't support underage girls being able to choose sex work, but I think we do better when we don't make it a sarcastic joke. I don't mean to scold you, but we are capable of more than this level of discourse.
I agree, but, tbf, we were called slut shamers last week so I can give a little leeway with such sarcasm/snark in this thread.
If I hear a tween girl say she wants to be a sex worker when she grows up, red flags are going up for me. I don't think I would ever just let that slide as a career path wish for a young girl. Maybe it will end up being her reality for a million reasons, but not her wish or her goal. I'm just never going to be that liberal, I'm afraid.
I don't support underage girls being able to choose sex work, but I think we do better when we don't make it a sarcastic joke. I don't mean to scold you, but we are capable of more than this level of discourse.
^o) You do mean to scold me. Earlier in this thread I wondered how many of sex workers had experienced some sort of trauma and was told that even wondering such a thing stigmatized them rather than just accepted that some sex workers just like sex...and yet--here we are again..full circle at essentially the same point: That anyone who "wants to be a sex worker" must be in need of professional help--and the answer to that is.."Nope--maybe they just really like sex?"
Honestly--I disagree with that--and I'm clearly NOT the only one--but that seems to be the expert answer!