Look, Caden's post to disagree with arbor was totally fine. Instead of being sarcastic and saying that arbor is disgusting, she cited that teenagers' brains aren't fully developed and can't assess risk. Absolutely true. Good facts. Disagreed like a human being.
Name calling and sarcasm have no place in this discussion. Let's try to have an adult discourse.
ETA: Plenty of people are doing it right, I am just sick of the piling on and acting like arbor ate a trafficked child for breakfast.
Not telling people to go fuck themselves goes a long way to raising the bar. FWIW. And that's not directed at you.
Okay, y'all. I'm sorry that some of you seem hellbent on misinterpretation, or hell bent on refusing to read the shit I post, or hellbent on refusing to do any research of your own, but to clarify:
Sex work =/= sex trafficking.
Underage sex workers DO exist. And, yes, they ARE choosing this (please to be seeing the article I posted above).
Underage sex workers, at least in NYC, are, by and large, not being handled by pimps - most of them get into it through friends as a sure way to make money and support themselves.
I don't support underage sex work, because I'd rather see ALL kids in school until the age of majority. Maybe would-be sex workers will discover something else that interests them or can give them better pay to support themselves; maybe they wont. But I'm a big fan of education, so, yeah - kids, stay in school. That way if you still do want to enter sex work, you'll have a better handle on things.
I do NOT believe, however, that underage sex workers are incapable of making the choice to enter sex work. It doesn't mean I think they're making a good choice, or that I agree with their choice, or that they might not regret their choice later. But teenagers ARE sexual beings. And they ARE capable of making choices, no matter how messed up we think those choices are. Do we think 14 year olds are incapable of making the choice to join a gang? (Hint: they're not). Yes, they're brains are still developing (actually, brains continue to develop up until age 25, so technically a lot of adults are making stupid ass decisions as well), and that's why they're more prone to making questionable choices. Because, as others have stated, they don't often think long-term. But, again, that does not mean that they are incapable of making choices.
NONE of what I've said above means that I don't believe that some underage sex workers are coerced into sex work. NONE of what I've said means that I don't believe that some teens are trafficked. NONE of what I've said means that I don't believe that some individuals who become sex workers have experienced past traumas.
Look, Caden's post to disagree with arbor was totally fine. Instead of being sarcastic and saying that arbor is disgusting, she cited that teenagers' brains aren't fully developed and can't assess risk. Absolutely true. Good facts. Disagreed like a human being.
Name calling and sarcasm have no place in this discussion. Let's try to have an adult discourse.
ETA: Plenty of people are doing it right, I am just sick of the piling on and acting like arbor ate a trafficked child for breakfast.
Not telling people to go fuck themselves goes a long way to raising the bar. FWIW. And that's not directed at you.
Calling someone a certified piece of shit goes a long way, too. FWIW. And that's not directed at you.
Arbor, I am not sure people can get past (well, me, for sure) that they are capable. And 12 IS NOT A TEENAGER. And what does this make those that hire these children? This is the issue people have with you saying they are capable of making a decision. They really are not, especially with an adult when a) money is involved and b) such a power imbalance occurs. Once they are ADULTS, the power imbalance really dissolves, imo, so there is a difference. Where am I misinterpreting? Please, y'all, set me straight as I don't think you are being rational here but, rather, are just focused on being right or the expert or whatever. I understand you have background in this, among many topics, but I don't think it makes the conclusion correct.
That article says "Nearly all of the youths — 95 percent — said they exchanged sex for money because it was the surest way to support themselves."
Children should not be supporting themselves. I don't care if a pimp has a gun to a child's head or no pimps live in the entire state. A child on the streets who needs a way to eat is forced by circumstances. There is no way this is a healthy or safe choice and I don't accept it as valid regardless of who is (or is not) putting the child up to it.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on Feb 2, 2013 16:02:14 GMT -5
Here's my entire issue with the idea that a 12 year old "chooses" to go into sex work (and honestly, I have this same issue if someone of the same age would choose to join a gang):
Even if they're technically making the choice, I don't think it's an informed choice. Not meaning that I think it's a bad decision (which I do, but that's not what I mean with the phrase "informed choice"). I don't think someone who is 12 has the mental capability of actually understanding what they're choosing to do.
Here's my entire issue with the idea that a 12 year old "chooses" to go into sex work (and honestly, I have this same issue if someone of the same age would choose to join a gang):
Even if they're technically making the choice, I don't think it's an informed choice. Not meaning that I think it's a bad decision (which I do, but that's not what I mean with the phrase "informed choice"). I don't think someone who is 12 has the mental capability of actually understanding what they're choosing to do.
Which gets back full circle (again!) to eclaire's question of how to distinguish "choice" of a 12-yr old vs. "choice" of an adult.
Also, FYI - that "12-14" figure is from the DOJ report on TRAFFICKING.
HTH.
Oh, and the stat is ACTUALLY from a report from 2002. The report the article I listed above references is from 2011. And there's another that either came out last year, or is due to come out early this year.
Okay, y'all. I'm sorry that some of you seem hellbent on misinterpretation, or hell bent on refusing to read the shit I post, or hellbent on refusing to do any research of your own, but to clarify:
Sex work =/= sex trafficking.
Underage sex workers DO exist. And, yes, they ARE choosing this (please to be seeing the article I posted above).
Underage sex workers, at least in NYC, are, by and large, not being handled by pimps - most of them get into it through friends as a sure way to make money and support themselves.
I don't support underage sex work, because I'd rather see ALL kids in school until the age of majority. Maybe would-be sex workers will discover something else that interests them or can give them better pay to support themselves; maybe they wont. But I'm a big fan of education, so, yeah - kids, stay in school. That way if you still do want to enter sex work, you'll have a better handle on things. I do NOT believe, however, that underage sex workers are incapable of making the choice to enter sex work. It doesn't mean I think they're making a good choice, or that I agree with their choice, or that they might not regret their choice later. But teenagers ARE sexual beings. And they ARE capable of making choices, no matter how messed up we think those choices are. Do we think 14 year olds are incapable of making the choice to join a gang? (Hint: they're not). Yes, they're brains are still developing (actually, brains continue to develop up until age 25, so technically a lot of adults are making stupid ass decisions as well), and that's why they're more prone to making questionable choices. Because, as others have stated, they don't often think long-term. But, again, that does not mean that they are incapable of making choices.
NONE of what I've said above means that I don't believe that some underage sex workers are coerced into sex work. NONE of what I've said means that I don't believe that some teens are trafficked. NONE of what I've said means that I don't believe that some individuals who become sex workers have experienced past traumas.
Anything else y'all would like to misinterpret?
No one is saying they aren't capable of making choices. We're saying they're incapable of fully understanding the ramifications, risks, rewards, influences, etc of the decisions they make and therefore should be limited as to what they are allowed to decide.
Here's my entire issue with the idea that a 12 year old "chooses" to go into sex work (and honestly, I have this same issue if someone of the same age would choose to join a gang):
Even if they're technically making the choice, I don't think it's an informed choice. Not meaning that I think it's a bad decision (which I do, but that's not what I mean with the phrase "informed choice"). I don't think someone who is 12 has the mental capability of actually understanding what they're choosing to do.
Which gets back full circle (again!) to eclaire's question of how to distinguish "choice" of a 12-yr old vs. "choice" of an adult.
Exactly!
But I'll be honest. I'll never, ever be convinced that someone who is 12 is actually making a true choice to be a sex worker.
Arbor, I am not sure people can get past (well, me, for sure) that they are capable.
Thank you Tef. That is the issue here just as we had with Slaves had choices thread. And if i am supposedly lowering the damn bar so be it. I will bury that fucker to the core of the earth when it come to this topic. From the looks of the thread a majority of us are on the same track some have a different points of view. It's whatever at this point and not worth another 20 page thread IMO. So everyone can keep on keeping on. Druid thanks for posting the article.
Sure 12 year olds are capable of making choices. Hell my 5 year old niece can make a choice about what time to go to bed. It doesn't mean she is making the best choice for herself and that my brother and SIL aren't going to intervene on her behalf and tell her to go to bed at 730.
Capable of making a choice isn't really the bar we should be using here.
I think what Druid is getting at is my original question about how we are defining choice and I was wondering if the average age really is as early as the DoJ stat, how does that work with what has been said about sex workers choosing that path in the past few weeks. And arbor's article talked about kids being able to choose that. So I guess I do wonder how sources that aren't lagging behind like the DoJ are treating choice. Am I making any sense?
December did address that partially with her info (thanks, btw!).
In case you missed it, eclaires, that 12-14 stat is from a DOJ report about trafficking (not sex work), and came from a 2001 study. A more recent study put the average age of entry into sex work at 15+.
That article says "Nearly all of the youths — 95 percent — said they exchanged sex for money because it was the surest way to support themselves."
Children should not be supporting themselves. I don't care if a pimp has a gun to a child's head or no pimps live in the entire state. A child on the streets who needs a way to eat is forced by circumstances. There is no way this is a healthy or safe choice and I don't accept it as valid regardless of who is (or is not) putting the child up to it.
Way to take some agency away from teens.
Look, I think we can ALL agree that NONE of us WANT to see underage kids engaged in sex work. We shouldn't want kids to have to be supporting themselves through any means. There are much better things for them to be doing. Like being in fucking school.
But to tell these kids, who ARE actively choosing this work that it's not a valid choice? That's messed up.
Unless you're meaning "valid" as in "good" or "right" instead of "real."
Because, yeah, i would agree that this is a shitastic choice for these teens to be making. That doesn't mean that they didn't make it, though.
Thanks for the update arbor - I just saw your OP on that as I was catching up.
While I'm glad to see the age is rising, I think my question still remains at age 15 (not really directed at anyone specifically - just the overall idea of choice and the history of sex workers who are choosing sex/ when they make that choice). I'm firmly on the train of being able to make a decision as an underage person does not equate to being able to choose sex work as a profession.
I will admit that I feel proud that my question sparked a Saturday discussion since we are usually pretty slow.
I think what's happening here is sine people are using choice in a "valid, good" choice sorry if way. Others are saying vice an in "not kidnapped or coerced" sort of way. So people are spreading around each other.
Also, there's wanting to do something as a teen and actually doing it. I don't think arbor supports teens engaging in sex work while teens, but she's supports them expressing a desire, the way we all do at that age, for future occupation.
But if the choices available are shitty are they really choices? Like die from starvation and thirst, or sell your body to that old perv over there....is that really a choice?
ETA: It's a choice, but is it a "choice" like saying it's something you want. It's semantics. The word "choice" is bugging me.
Thanks for the update arbor - I just saw your OP on that as I was catching up.
While I'm glad to see the age is rising, I think my question still remains at age 15 (not really directed at anyone specifically - just the overall idea of choice and the history of sex workers who are choosing sex/ when they make that choice). I'm firmly on the train of being able to make a decision as an underage person does not equate to being able to choose sex work as a profession.
I will admit that I feel proud that my question sparked a Saturday discussion since we are usually pretty slow.
Eclaires,
First, I am sending you many of these (heart) for having a civil discussion about this with me. I know we were having one from the start, and sometime after I logged off, things went to shite. But thank you for sticking to the civility. I appreciate it.
Second, I'm glad the age is rising, too! Though, again, I'm not sure if the age is rising for trafficking victims, which is what the DOJ report was really talking about. The latest stats I've seen on trafficking victims indicate that the age is actually DECREASING (which is a horribly depressing thought), but I could be wrong. But I do feel at least somewhat better that the average age for entering sex work is 15+ instead of 12.
I think we can all agree (like I posted above) that none of us want to see underage girls or boys engaging in sex work. But I don't think that means we can say they aren't really choosing it. The most up to date research really seems to indicate otherwise. What does that mean for us? Well, I think it means we need to look harder into WHY these teens are choosing sex work, and find ways to alleviate whatever need it is that they're filling through sex work (whether it's a financial need - as most indicated), or something else.
And, yes, your question most definitely DID spark a discussion!
ETA: The average age for UNDERAGE sex workers to enter sex work is 15+. I'd have to check out the latest stats to see what the average age for entering sex work is for ALL sex workers.
I think what's happening here is sine people are using choice in a "valid, good" choice sorry if way. Others are saying vice an in "not kidnapped or coerced" sort of way. So people are spreading around each other.
Also, there's wanting to do something as a teen and actually doing it. I don't think arbor supports teens engaging in sex work while teens, but she's supports them expressing a desire, the way we all do at that age, for future occupation.
I know this is a serious subject, but I'm honestly giggling at your newly installed swype's inability to read your thoughts as of yet.
But if the choices available are shitty are they really choices? Like die from starvation and thirst, or sell your body to that old perv over there....is that really a choice?
This is a huge part of what I'm getting at with my question. It's really about the very idea of choice and how it relates to some of what we'd been discussing in the past few weeks. Whether it be the age you start, lack of options, etc. My original question was also about how you control for that when you study the sex industry and whether people are choosing it or not. Like, in practice, how are we defining choice and is it possible to determine whether someone is really making a choice because its what they want. I guess it was partially a question about methodology, mostly out of curiosity, and it popped into my head because of the average age stat and what that means and how it affects choice.
Thanks for the update arbor - I just saw your OP on that as I was catching up.
While I'm glad to see the age is rising, I think my question still remains at age 15 (not really directed at anyone specifically - just the overall idea of choice and the history of sex workers who are choosing sex/ when they make that choice). I'm firmly on the train of being able to make a decision as an underage person does not equate to being able to choose sex work as a profession.
I will admit that I feel proud that my question sparked a Saturday discussion since we are usually pretty slow.
Eclaires,
First, I am sending you many of these (heart) for having a civil discussion about this with me. I know we were having one from the start, and sometime after I logged off, things went to shite. But thank you for sticking to the civility. I appreciate it.
Second, I'm glad the age is rising, too! Though, again, I'm not sure if the age is rising for trafficking victims, which is what the DOJ report was really talking about. The latest stats I've seen on trafficking victims indicate that the age is actually DECREASING (which is a horribly depressing thought), but I could be wrong. But I do feel at least somewhat better that the average age for entering sex work is 15+ instead of 12.
I think we can all agree (like I posted above) that none of us want to see underage girls or boys engaging in sex work. But I don't think that means we can say they aren't really choosing it. The most up to date research really seems to indicate otherwise. What does that mean for us? Well, I think it means we need to look harder into WHY these teens are choosing sex work, and find ways to alleviate whatever need it is that they're filling through sex work (whether it's a financial need - as most indicated), or something else.
And, yes, your question most definitely DID spark a discussion!
ETA: The average age for UNDERAGE sex workers to enter sex work is 15+. I'd have to check out the latest stats to see what the average age for entering sex work is for ALL sex workers.
Yes I think you're right about figuring out the why and it tied in a bit to what summer is saying. I appreciate you answering my questions because I know this topic has been getting heated. I think with regards to the underage crowd honing in on the why is important so we can help change those circumstances like you said. I definitively think kids can make that choice in the strictest sense of the word, which may be where some of us are arguing around each other at this point. Maybe we are really just having a discussion about how to define a choice...
And that is terribly depressing about trafficking. It hurts my heart that people can be so fucking vile.
I think we can all agree (like I posted above) that none of us want to see underage girls or boys engaging in sex work. But I don't think that means we can say they aren't really choosing it. The most up to date research really seems to indicate otherwise. .
what research? The 8 pager you posted earlier says they're almost always doing it because they need money to support themselves (not because they just love sex so much.) That's hardly a free choice. I don't know why you're reluctant to admit that the lack of a pimp or trafficker doesn't mean the child was totally free to choose. It certainly doesn't mean the choice was a fully informed one, and that alone is enough for me to say it's invalid. I'm very glad to see you don't support any child engaging in sex work, even if we totally disagree on the reason why.
I think we can all agree (like I posted above) that none of us want to see underage girls or boys engaging in sex work. But I don't think that means we can say they aren't really choosing it. The most up to date research really seems to indicate otherwise. .
what research? The 8 pager you posted earlier says they're almost always doing it because they need money to support themselves (not because they just love sex so much.) That's hardly a free choice. I don't know why you're reluctant to admit that the lack of a pimp or trafficker doesn't mean the child was totally free to choose. It certainly doesn't mean the choice was a fully informed one, and that alone is enough for me to say it's invalid. I'm very glad to see you don't support any child engaging in sex work, even if we totally disagree on the reason why.
Caden, I'm done arguing with you about this.
Some of these kids ARE choosing it. WHY they're choosing it? Well, there are a lot of different reasons. The executive summary of the research indicates that, "Although several said that they felt peer pressure´to join in, their narratives were generally less about being pressured´ to participate...as they were about economic necessity, fascination, and curiosity with what appeared to be an emerging lifestyle.´
You can read the Executive Summary here, though I'd encourage you to read the full report (it's rather long, but worth the read).