Oh and side note, there are no plans to have kids, I could not imagine how awful that situation would be if there were kids in the mix (we live 12 minutes from the in-laws). My not-having-kids is another anger point for MIL (she kept mentioning last night how she and I are sooo different, she is "a teacher and loves little children" and I am in business and gravitate more towards 'the guys' etc" just more passive aggressive ways to come at us for not having kids.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
Thanks for all the support. To answer some of the questions:
1. Backstory is long, I have not done anything terrible to DH, but his mother treats me very poorly (e.g. the passive aggressive comments on facebook - last summer she saw a post I had written to another friend about an annoying neighbor, and then went on her wall and did a rant on how she was glad to be from the south (I'm a northerner), where they have good values and do not focus on petty things, etc. It was directed at me, and after this kind of stuff happening repeatedly, it was just it for me, so I demanded that DH stand up to them, and he did, we stopped going to family functions completely, which his family claimed "devastated them." Thus, where they are getting the whole "she's taking our son away from us" stuff. So they won't recognize it for what it is, their son standing up for his wife from poor treatment from his mother.
2. I suggested a group counseling session because his mother kept whining to DH about he is so cold to her and didn't call her on her birthday, etc. I felt we needed to get our issues out on the table with a third, neutral party to kind of guide the conversation. I was foolish to think they could be adults about this and actually LISTEN to what I had to say and own some of their past behavior.
3. DH is very introverted and hates confrontation and I am disappointed he didn't say more in the session. Very disappointed. His parents said they "didn't even know who he is anymore." (because of how he stood up for me outside the session)
4. karma - I tried that tactic in the past, I told DH that it is unacceptable for him to continue a relationship with people who crap on me. But the more he stays away from them, the more they claim that I am trying to tear apart the family and keep their son away. They even brought up the fact that they heard I was pissed that DH went to their house for dinner (and didn't tell me about it) when I was away on a business trip (they NEVER invite both of us over).
#4 Ok - but how does HE feel about it? Forget how they feel. fuck them. What does your husband think? Does he want to be around them? Does he want you to just get along for the sake of getting along?
Or is he on your side, being a team player and chosing "you two" over "them"?
#3 try not to be to hard on him. He has made a stand on your behalf and he's trying. It all goes against is more typical nature, and that should be appreciated... and given a bit more of a pass when he can't hit it out of the park every single time.
If you start getting critical that he isn't telling them to stfu loud enough for your liking... he might stop altogether. and that isn't what you need right now.
DH and I have a similar situation with my in laws and we cut contact with them. Your in laws sound as toxic as mine, and for us it was best that we cut them off for good. I agree that you should cut them off cold turkey, but your H should make that decision on his own. You don't want him to resent you in the future for making him cut our his family. If he truly loves you (which I'm sure he does), he'll make that decision on his own and cut them off. I'm sure he sees their toxic nature and how disgusting they are towards you.
4. karma - I tried that tactic in the past, I told DH that it is unacceptable for him to continue a relationship with people who crap on me. But the more he stays away from them, the more they claim that I am trying to tear apart the family and keep their son away. They even brought up the fact that they heard I was pissed that DH went to their house for dinner (and didn't tell me about it) when I was away on a business trip (they NEVER invite both of us over).
How do you know each others' reactions if there's little/no contact? I wonder if there's someone who's helping to stir up drama. This isn't to minimize what the in-laws are doing, at all, but it seems like there's a lot of unhelpful communication going on in this situation.
DH must have told them about this (and I was mortified in the session, as I did not know he had told them I was angry over this), I am not sure when, I'm sure they talked on the phone or something.
I'm likely going to be the outlier here, but I'm totally confused as to why you suggested a group therapy session. Your MIL makes passive-agressive comments to you FB (and presumably, sometimes in person?) That sucks and would cause me to think that I'd never want to pursue a "real" relationship with these people. And so I'd prob commit to spending a few hours in their company 2-3 times a year and call it a day. Trying to "work things out" with people who pretty clearly don't like you just seems too forced. And now asking your H to essentially choose between his parents and you - again - it just seems a little dramatic to me.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
How do you know each others' reactions if there's little/no contact? I wonder if there's someone who's helping to stir up drama. This isn't to minimize what the in-laws are doing, at all, but it seems like there's a lot of unhelpful communication going on in this situation.
DH must have told them about this (and I was mortified in the session, as I did not know he had told them I was angry over this), I am not sure when, I'm sure they talked on the phone or something.
That's what I thought. I think your DH is throwing you under the bus here. He wants to keep up relationships with both sides and it sounds like he's playing you off as the problem to make his life easier. I'm so sorry.
Thanks for all the support. To answer some of the questions:
1. Backstory is long, I have not done anything terrible to DH, but his mother treats me very poorly (e.g. the passive aggressive comments on facebook - last summer she saw a post I had written to another friend about an annoying neighbor, and then went on her wall and did a rant on how she was glad to be from the south (I'm a northerner), where they have good values and do not focus on petty things, etc. It was directed at me, and after this kind of stuff happening repeatedly, it was just it for me, so I demanded that DH stand up to them, and he did, we stopped going to family functions completely, which his family claimed "devastated them." Thus, where they are getting the whole "she's taking our son away from us" stuff. So they won't recognize it for what it is, their son standing up for his wife from poor treatment from his mother.
2. I suggested a group counseling session because his mother kept whining to DH about he is so cold to her and didn't call her on her birthday, etc. I felt we needed to get our issues out on the table with a third, neutral party to kind of guide the conversation. I was foolish to think they could be adults about this and actually LISTEN to what I had to say and own some of their past behavior.
3. DH is very introverted and hates confrontation and I am disappointed he didn't say more in the session. Very disappointed. His parents said they "didn't even know who he is anymore." (because of how he stood up for me outside the session)
4. karma - I tried that tactic in the past, I told DH that it is unacceptable for him to continue a relationship with people who crap on me. But the more he stays away from them, the more they claim that I am trying to tear apart the family and keep their son away. They even brought up the fact that they heard I was pissed that DH went to their house for dinner (and didn't tell me about it) when I was away on a business trip (they NEVER invite both of us over).
#4 Ok - but how does HE feel about it? Forget how they feel. fuck them. What does your husband think? Does he want to be around them? Does he want you to just get along for the sake of getting along?
Or is he on your side, being a team player and chosing "you two" over "them"?
#3 try not to be to hard on him. He has made a stand on your behalf and he's trying. It all goes against is more typical nature, and that should be appreciated... and given a bit more of a pass when he can't hit it out of the park every single time.
If you start getting critical that he isn't telling them to stfu loud enough for your liking... he might stop altogether. and that isn't what you need right now.
He is not happy about it. I think it is just really hard for him to tear himself away from them, they were all happy, happy joy joy until I came into the picture (or at least according to the in-laws), DH had a wonderful childhood, etc etc etc. He is a "peace maker" and just wants everyone to get along, this is the one thing I can't stand about him. It kills him to know that his dad (mostly) is upset with him. He stands up for me and has been really great a few times in doing so, but I think he still fears them. DH is not a strong man, I will say it. I'm trying not to be too hard on him, I know it can't be a great place to be in, but as his wife I need to come first.
I'm going to set up a session with just he and I, as soon as we can get in...
I'm likely going to be the outlier here, but I'm totally confused as to why you suggested a group therapy session. Your MIL makes passive-agressive comments to you FB (and presumably, sometimes in person?) That sucks and would cause me to think that I'd never want to pursue a "real" relationship with these people. And so I'd prob commit to spending a few hours in their company 2-3 times a year and call it a day. Trying to "work things out" with people who pretty clearly don't like you just seems too forced. And now asking your H to essentially choose between his parents and you - again - it just seems a little dramatic to me.
Wow, I'm really sorry your going through this. Your IL's sound so incredibly toxic. I would stay away from them like you said. Set aside time for you and you H on holidays to celebrate then he can go see his family if he wants. Until they acknowledge that they are apart of the problem, your going to get nowhere.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
I'm likely going to be the outlier here, but I'm totally confused as to why you suggested a group therapy session. Your MIL makes passive-agressive comments to you FB (and presumably, sometimes in person?) That sucks and would cause me to think that I'd never want to pursue a "real" relationship with these people. And so I'd prob commit to spending a few hours in their company 2-3 times a year and call it a day. Trying to "work things out" with people who pretty clearly don't like you just seems too forced. And now asking your H to essentially choose between his parents and you - again - it just seems a little dramatic to me.
I'll sit down here too
It truly isn't a simple as this. It wears you down and causes issues in your marriage. To say it is only about passive aggressive comments is way over simplifying the situation.
I'm glad you are getting a session for just you and your H. It sounds like it is much needed.
I get being stuck in the middle during a bad situation, but there comes a time when you have to choose. It really doesn't seem like he's willing to do that yet.
And honestly? The idea of him going to holidays and such solo is so, so bad. In the end you'll only resent him for it and he'll hear nothing but their thoughts about you. It can only end in more heartbreak.
He needs to step up and choose where he'll plant his flag.
It truly isn't a simple as this. It wears you down and causes issues in your marriage. To say it is only about passive aggressive comments is way over simplifying the situation.
You can't change your ILs. I wouldn't even try, honestly. (I did. It was useless. Lesson learned.)
You have to work on your reactions (if any) to them. You have to set boundaries and enforce them. And you and your H have to be on the same team in this. It's like a toddler. If you say, no you can't have candy, but H is slipping him candy, it doesn't work. You guys need to be on the same page. So, that's where you start. FOrget the IL sessions for now and focus on figuring things out with your H.
I'm going to be honest here. Forget ever going to counseling again with the in-laws. It's fruitless.
Get into marital counseling with your husband. You've got a lot of issues to work out between you if you want your marriage to survive. Don't underestimate the effect the in-laws have on your marriage.
You might even eventually have to decide if it's worth staying in the marriage given this set of circumstances. Good luck to you.
Oh my word - I can't even imagine. I'm so sorry, blackcat. It sounds like you are in a horrible position, and I applaud you for doing what you can to make it better. You are walking a rough road, but you are being brave. Best wishes. I hope that things start to improve eventually.
Oh, Blackcat, I am so sorry. A lot of what you say resonates with me. I am from the north, married a deep-south man w/ a "southern" family who to this day refer to me as his "Yankee wife". I've also heard that I am taking him away, "trying to change him", separating him from his family (or, as they say, "tearing the family asunder!"), and so much more.
I get why you scheduled the counseling - because not matter how supportive your H is (and sounds like yours could maybe be better?), it's a huge strain on your marriage to watch your H lose his relationship with his family and know that his relationship with you drives that loss. Even if they're awful, even if he is ok with the distance, it's hard to know you're causing that.
Your H needs to decide what he's willing to put up with here. I feel like he should be WILLING to walk away from his parents. At least to be able to say, "Blackcat will not be attending any functions that you are at. She needs her space from you, after the way you have treated her. I'll plan to see you on occasion, but the first time you say anything negative about my wife, I will no longer communicate with you. It is up to YOU what kind of relationship you have with me from this point forward."
Perhaps, if he understands how you feel about his lack of communication at last night's session, he could write down NOW the things he wishes he would have said there. Then, have lunch or dinner with his parents (on his own, or with you, whatever you're comfortable with) and tell them the things that are on the list. At least have a chance to say those things.
Also, yes, the Toxic In Laws book referenced in here is AMAZING, I highly recommend. ((Hugs))
2) You guys are a package deal, if they don't want you, he doesn't go. If you let him go you will only come to resent HIM for letting the situation go on. You will become bitter and it will not put your marriage in a good place. My mom went thru literally the exact same thing with her late husband and his family. She eventually stopped going to all of their functions and he went without her until the day he died. She is still bitter and hurt and it affected her and her self esteem greatly. Work this out with DH and move on with your lives, you do not need this negativity in your marriage.
I think your H is having a very hard time being in the middle (stating the obvious). But you being mad at him about not defending you well enough is not going to help. What is your goal here? If it's to have everyone in the family get along, that's not happening in the near future. Whatever your H says about his lovely childhood, it's really clear that his mom has some control issues, and these were probably practiced on your H for an entire childhood/young adulthood. It takes time to get past that and assert yourself as an independent adult. Support him in this, but don't expect it to happen overnight. It may never happen.
Personally, I would minimize my involvement with my MIL, but be irreproachably nice whenever we did have contact. I would be so super sweet that nobody could ever claim I was the bitchy one, and it would give me great satisfaction to know that my behavior was driving her crazy. She wants to get under your skin, but if you never show that you're upset, you win. If she starts doing crazier, more insulting stuff to get a rise out of you? You also win, because she will be revealed as the controlling crazy that it sounds like she is.
Sucky inlaws suck. The best thing you can do is not let yourself get sucked into the suck. Don't EVER give your MIL the satisfaction of rising to her drama, and she'll probably find some other target eventually.
Post by cheeseandcrackers on May 7, 2013 12:08:48 GMT -5
You know.. i get that your husband is in the middle.. but he can't be on both sides. He needs to pick one. He seems a tad bit wishy washy. Obviously, if they keep talking shit about you, especially to him, they think it's appropriate and he must not discourage this behavior. It's just a terrible feeling to be disapproved by in laws.. I dated a guy for 2 years.. and his parents HATED me, his mother in particular, all because I wasn't their religion. So I totally understand. I think a big reason (among other things of course) we broke up because it caused so much tension. This is a tad bit different though.. he married you, so they either need to accept it or go away.
It sounds like they won't accept it, so it's time to cut them out. What's the point of even trying to convince these people to like you?
Post by sunshineray on May 7, 2013 12:15:17 GMT -5
This is a shitty situation no matter how you look at it, but I think your heart is in the right place. It doesn't seem to me that your H is really taking anyone's side, even though he's saying to you that he's "disappointed" in his parents behavior. He's known them his whole life, so none of this should really come as a surprise to him. I think it's telling that he didn't speak up much during the session, probably because he already knows it's pointless to argue with them. I definitely agree with PP that cutting them out of your life and encouraging your H to continue contact with them is going to be counterproductive. You will eventually resent the time he spends with them, and even if he doesn't tell you all the shitty things they say about you behind your back, that's just going to create distance between the two of you.
I don't know if you've already addressed this, but are you two in counseling together? If not, I think this is something you really need to do. I understand the difference in the way "northerners" and "southerners" are raised. (DH's family is from MS and I grew up in Northern VA.) That doesn't excuse the negative behavior. So sorry if your MIL doesn't like you. She doesn't have to. Your H loves you and married you for a reason. Don't give in to this bullshit. You and your H need to get on the same page as to how you're going to handle them going forward. This is obviously unacceptable and you both need to be consistent.
Again, I can't imagine how badly this must suck, so lots and lots of hugs.
Post by mariafromnj on May 7, 2013 12:16:26 GMT -5
It is such a tough situation when the in-laws don't support a couple. My SIL is hated by her new DH's parents. She has chosen for now to stay out of their way. Her DH goes to visit once every few weeks for lunch or something. She hopes as they fix the relationship with their son that they will be better towards her.
You mentioned how they brought up you being mad that your DH went over to visit his parents while you were away. Does that mean you are not open to him having a relationship with them at all. Maybe I read that wrong but if not, why the need for therapy?
Your husband needs to make a decision here. Honestly, I can't imagine why he's subjecting you to this kind of thing -- obviously the counseling is going to be unproductive and result in a lot of finger-pointing, and a lot of insults from your in-laws. So why even bother with another session? Their intentions are not to fix things, but to drive a wedge between you and your husband -- between you and their collective "them."
Really, your husband needs to figure out where his priorities are. It's all fine and dandy that he's telling you he's disappointed in them, but where the fuck was he during the counseling session? Why didn't he stand up for you there? Tell them he's disappointed in them there? His silence only encourages them; and if he's so nonconfrontational as to be unable to stand against this kind of treatment, he needs to decide that right now and let you go your own way.
I'm so sorry.
I completely agree with Lucy here. Your H might be the passive, quiet type, but he's teaching your ILs, by his actions, that their behavior is acceptable. If their goal is to drive a wedge between the two of you, imagine what the conversation was like in their car on the way home post-therapy last night.
Him: "Well, Son didn't say much..." Her: "I think maybe we're getting through to him, getting him to see what a horrible mistake marrying that wench was." Him: "I think you're right. I think he was watching her behavior and seeing what he'll be married to in five years if he stays with her." Her: "Good. Maybe he'll leave her if we keep showing him what a witch she is." etc etc etc.
You know that's not what he was thinking, but I can totally imagine them interpreting his quiet, passive demeanor that way, based on what you've said. To that end, they'll continue to try to "light your fire" and watch his reactions to your reactions, interpreting his behavior as they go. At least that's how I'm reading it.
My point is, it seems to me that most of the power here rests in your H's hands. If he doesn't start speaking up and making his stand clear, it'll just continue to be a mess. He has to make clear to them that they can choose - him and you, or neither of you. You're a package deal. If he can't clarify that to them, clear as day, he's a part of the problem. I'm sorry.
Post by daisybuchannan on May 7, 2013 12:34:30 GMT -5
Wow, they seem like horrible people.
I honestly don't know how you would cut ties though and encourage him to maintain a relationship. Emotionally AND logistically, I don't think it would end well.
I am in a similar situation- just add a deep spiral of depression, alcoholism, and enabling. MIL (and her mother) have hated me since about a month before the wedding because one sentence I said was misinterpreted. I apologized, or tried to, but that was the beginning of the end. Things came to a head when MIL flipped out and left one morning because I let SIL hold DS while I was brushing my teeth. DH and I had committments during the day and MIL was supposed to be watching DS. I made sure SIL was cool with babysitting and went to the function I needed to attend. Fast forward to the evening- MIL apologized, I told her I appreciated her apology but I didn't like her instability and I was uncomfortable with DS around it. Well, she lost it and DH and I packed up DS and left while I was trying to feed him dinner. After the way she yelled at me, in front of DS, DH finally got it.
Here are our rules because we don't want DS to not have a relationship with DH's family. 1- we do not talk to her when she is drinking 2- she doesn not have DS alone, EVER 3- if she as much as raises her voice or says anything inflammatory we leave. Period. I don't care if it is the middle of the night or the middle of dinner, we leave.
It doesn't stop me from feeling uncomfortable and it took DH a LONG time to see how anxious being near MIL made me but this is where we have a happy medium. I still get anxious but we are rarely one-on-one with her. You can lay out ground rules and see how it goes but you need to be prepared to act on them, i.e. leave or discontinue contact.