So, Snowden. traitor or whistler blower or both.

[cleo29]

He is starting to annoy me. And, I feel particular annoyance with him hiding out rather than facing what he did. If you feel that strongly about what the government was doing and are willing to expose everything, I think you should have the balls to face the aftermath.

[rex]

I don't think traitor, but I'm not all "yay hero!"

And I would hide out too (out of fear lol).

I don't see his hiding as him being scared I think it seems like he's all "fuck you America you can't touch me." Which makes me see him as an asshole.

[calledout]

Not a traitor, but also not a hero b/c although I guess he performed a sort of public service (eh??), I think he did it b/c he's a bit of an AW with a martyr complex. I def don't blame him for hiding out.

I wonder what he's doing for $$$. Do you think he has benefactors or anything like that?

[VillainV]

Traitor. I see where he's coming from, and I get why people think he's a hero, but he's still a traitor in my eyes.

[pantsparty]

He's not doing a very good job of hiding out.

[janiejones]

I say whistle blower.

I don't blame the hiding out. It shows how aggressive the other side is by how much they are villanizing him, and chasing him.

Also, I'm on team Bolivia. Grounding the Bolivian President's plan for this was totally assy and should not have happened.

[Bonita]

Traitor...I think he did a major disservice to the USA

[ECB]

With what he initially came out with, I may have been on the whistle blower side, but as he kept going and kept leaking stuff that was, to me, obvious (we spy on other countries!!!!) - he started losing whistle blower status.

I don't know that I can say traitor. But I question his motives.

[vallarta]

Both. He lost me when he starting spilling secrets to other countries.

[luckyval]

I do think his motives are an important factor here and I applauded his seemingly altruistic actions, but he's losing my respect as this goes on.

I do not, however, blame him for staying as far away from the US for as long as possible in the meantime

[azurely]

I think he's a traitor. Spilling secrets to another country is no bueno. I also think he's an ass for hiding out instead of facing the music. It seems to me that he was expecting to be heralded a national hero, other countries and citizens would applaud him, etc. but that hasn't happened. He is like a kid who stole mommy and daddy's bank account info, like, "Look what I've got!"

[CurlyQ284]

Jul 12, 2013 9:25:07 GMT -5 vallarta said:

Both. He lost me when he starting spilling secrets to other countries.

Exactly.

[thebamker]

I feel like history will decide what he is/was... but for now - we have to get that guy under control and put him on trial.

[CrazyLucky]

Whistle-blower. The system of checks and balances is clearly not working if the federal govt is spying on its own people to this degree.
I don't blame him for hiding out. I am sure he feels his chances of a fair trial are zero. And I wouldn't be surprised if he "hung himself" or some other terrible calamity happened to him if he was incarcerated.

[Deleted]

neither.

i think that he was motivated from a place of purity (i.e., not for money, etc.), and believed that the information he disclosed was essential to preserving liberty.

he also clearly violated our laws in treasonous fashion. this isn't mere civil disobedience given the potential to put our country (not to mention those who defend it) in harm's way, so he's not a hero like rosa parks was a hero.

i don't have a label for him. "not all-bad treasonous guy."

[lemon]

Frankly, he seems like a douchey AW to me. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that he took the job purely to collect and leak info.

[CurlyQ284]

Jul 12, 2013 10:02:09 GMT -5 lemon said:

Frankly, he seems like a douchey AW to me. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that he took the job purely to collect and leak info.

I read that too. That disgusts me, no way he is a hero.

[azurely]

Jul 12, 2013 10:06:52 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

Jul 12, 2013 10:02:09 GMT -5 lemon said:

Frankly, he seems like a douchey AW to me. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that he took the job purely to collect and leak info.

I read that too. That disgusts me, no way he is a hero.

I saw this too. He is definitely an AW.

[open24hours]

I don't know. But I'm really not all that unsurprised that the government spies on people to the extent that it does and I'm normally the first to side-eye conspiracy theories. I'm also not surprised he's having so much trouble finding asylum. Would any country want to take him in knowing he's famous for exposing secrets? Every country has its own dirty little secrets. Venezuela's offer of asylum baffles me. I'm sure they have tons of stuff to hide. Snowden's going to be heavily spied on wherever he winds up.

[starlily]

Jul 12, 2013 10:02:09 GMT -5 lemon said:

Frankly, he seems like a douchey AW to me. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that he took the job purely to collect and leak info.

I also think he's a douchey AW. To me there is a difference between stumbling upon information and then disclosing it (a real whistleblower) & actively searching for information to leak (douchey AW).

[10nille]

Went from Hero to Zero. Although, who knows if we will ever get the truth from either side. He has to be a fool to think there would be no consequences. The countries he has aligned himself with make me wonder if he really thought this out.

[elleblue]

Jul 12, 2013 9:24:07 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

I don't care what his motives are. I'm just glad he came out with this info. He's risked everything to do this. Guy has balls.

Info we already had - see Patriot Act. Can't quite fit as a whistleblower imho when you're "outing" info already known. I also have reservations about the whole thing given that he's admitted he sought the job to find out secrets/info just so he could reveal them to the public. Won't go so far as to call him a traitor, though I suppose that remains to be seen depending on what future info he releases (if he does).

As for the surveillance being unconstitutional, absolutely. But I thought that when the PA was first passed. I'm hoping this whole cluster will lead to it's repeal or at least an overhaul. So people should absolutely be up in arms and mad that this is happening, but they should be up in arms and mad that this is happening legally. That's the truly frightening aspect of it all. No one paid any attention and our freedoms and rights were infringed on. Not okay.

[Deleted]

I am surprised that in this day in age, where our own citizens have been comitting mass shootings, bombings, etc. and working WITH other contries and terriorist groups, that anyone would think he is a whistleblower. The way I see it, "spying" on citizens only matters if you are doing something wrong (ie. planning malicious acts against other Americans). You aren't doing anything, no one actually reviews data on you. I am fine giving up some freedom so additional security for the general population of America.

full disclosure: BF is a counter-intel officer in an the military and a DOD contractor working on classified items (ie. I don't know what - but this is why Snowden pisses me off)

[underwaterrhymes]

I think he is a narcissist who (however inadvertently) put our country and its citizens in jeopardy. I find it highly ironic that he has lied about so many things in his own background with regard to his education and experience, but felt that truth telling was so important here.

All that said, I do think that his concerns are legitimate and I think it's information we, as a public, have a right to know about.

Also, I think Edward Norton should play him in the movie.

[elleblue]

Jul 12, 2013 13:17:55 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

I think he is a narcissist who (however inadvertently) put our country and its citizens in jeopardy. I find it highly ironic that he has lied about so many things in his own background with regard to his education and experience, but felt that truth telling was so important here.

All that said, I do think that his concerns are legitimate and I think it's information we, as a public, have a right to know about.

Also, I think Edward Norton should play him in the movie.

Sorry but this is what has me bashing my head against my desk. We did know about it. People weren't aware, but that info was out there. Perhaps no one expected it to be taken to the extent it was, that's a whole different conversation, and one we should have, but the gov't was given permission to do this legally by the Patriot Act.

Sorry underwaterrhymes, I promise I'm not picking on you, I was just quoting you because I actually agree with everything else you said in your post. Well except for Edward Norton because I think he's getting too old (blasphemy, I know, sorry). Plus, you know I love me some underwaterhymens.

[elleblue]

Jul 12, 2013 13:23:33 GMT -5 11d said:

If we already should have known this through the Patriot Act, what did he whistleblow? Did he actually spill the contents or just the fact that the government has access?

That's just it, he didn't whistleblow. More or less he just drew attention to the fact that the gov't was doing things we all should be appalled at, and rightly so imho, nevermind that it was all legal.

[PinkSquirrel]

Jul 12, 2013 12:48:45 GMT -5 @lovespugs said:

I am surprised that in this day in age, where our own citizens have been comitting mass shootings, bombings, etc. and working WITH other contries and terriorist groups, that anyone would think he is a whistleblower. The way I see it, "spying" on citizens only matters if you are doing something wrong (ie. planning malicious acts against other Americans). You aren't doing anything, no one actually reviews data on you. I am fine giving up some freedom so additional security for the general population of America.

full disclosure: BF is a counter-intel officer in an the military and a DOD contractor working on classified items (ie. I don't know what - but this is why Snowden pisses me off)

Yeah ... no.  It does matter.  If you're doing something clearly wrong, then the powers that be can get a warrant, until then it's a violation of 4th amendment rights.  If we're just going to blatantly start axing amendments are you ok with me crossing off the 2nd?  Probably not

[elleblue]

Jul 12, 2013 13:29:40 GMT -5 11d said:

Jul 12, 2013 13:26:39 GMT -5 elleblue said:

That's just it, he didn't whistleblow. More or less he just drew attention to the fact that the gov't was doing things we all should be appalled at, and rightly so imho, nevermind that it was all legal.

So what exactly is the issue? I'm a bit lost.

I think the issue the gov't has is that he had access to a whole crap ton of gov't secrets. He had several computers linked into various systems that held top secret information. Even as a private contractor he is still supposed to be held to the standards of handling top secret info (one of which being it can be considered treasonous to even let people know you have access to top secret information). I don't know all the ins and outs, but it seems they're more nervous about what he may release in future rather than what he did. Though obviously it was also damned inconvenient in that misinformation (what? the gov't is doing this illegally!!eleventy11) has been rife throughout this scandal.

[underwaterrhymes]

Jul 12, 2013 13:26:39 GMT -5 elleblue said:

Jul 12, 2013 13:23:33 GMT -5 11d said:

If we already should have known this through the Patriot Act, what did he whistleblow? Did he actually spill the contents or just the fact that the government has access?

That's just it, he didn't whistleblow. More or less he just drew attention to the fact that the gov't was doing things we all should be appalled at, and rightly so imho, nevermind that it was all legal.

I totally agree. But it was not easily or readily available and most Americans didn't know about it.

11d - Sorry, I use jeopardy less as a description of physical harm, but rather as a statement of the long-lasting and damaging effect his actions will have with regard to international relations (and not just as a country, but with smaller organizations and individuals who do their work internationally). Increasing numbers of countries are questioning whether or not the US has spied on them too (which, of course, we have and this is not news.) It threatens the relationships we have with these countries and has undeniable implications for the free trade agreement.

I don't think the average citizen is in danger or anything. And again, I do think we have a right to know this, but that doesn't mean there aren't implications.

ETA - I forgot to mention that it absolutely affects the security of individuals serving overseas, as well.

[elleblue]

Jul 12, 2013 13:54:41 GMT -5 11d said:

Jul 12, 2013 13:38:01 GMT -5 elleblue said:

I think the issue the gov't has is that he had access to a whole crap ton of gov't secrets. He had several computers linked into various systems that held top secret information. Even as a private contractor he is still supposed to be held to the standards of handling top secret info (one of which being it can be considered treasonous to even let people know you have access to top secret information). I don't know all the ins and outs, but it seems they're more nervous about what he may release in future rather than what he did. Though obviously it was also damned inconvenient in that misinformation (what? the gov't is doing this illegally!!eleventy11) has been rife throughout this scandal.

Gotcha. This is such an infuriating topic because you can bet if they get him back on US soil, he will be treated to the finest treatment at Guantanamo for something the public already had a right to know and possibly because one day he MIGHT say things the public shouldn't know. Oh the land of the free....

I'd actually be surprised if the gov't "disappeared" him at this point considering how high profile he is, to be perfectly honest. I could be naive though. However I do know I'm not as naive as all the people waving their arms in the air with the "omg, the US is spying on their allies?!!!". Um yeah, our allies are spying on us too. It's kind of just how things work. Maybe I watch/read too much spy stuff. lol