A Rape Too Far

[iammalcolmx]

Jun 21, 2012 11:37:17 GMT -5 @bunnybean said:

Jun 21, 2012 11:32:53 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

So we are assholes if we don't agree with you? Good to know.

No, you're an asshole if you're rude. And you bringing up the implied consent thing from two years ago DEFINITELY qualifies.

Oh please and stop acting like you are brand new. You know good and well the nest never forgets and that implied consent shit was epic phuckery at its finest....just admit being a snatch for that ridiculous theory and a bigger one for calling the board stupid and then back tracking by saying you were only directing that comment towards Emmy.

[pedanticwench]

I get what BB is saying and I think those that disagree might just be misunderstanding her.

I think we all understand that the reason why gay male sex makes some people uncomfortable is because it makes one of the men play the part of the "woman;" ie. penetrated.

I've seen prison documentaries (H is big on that stuff) where male prisoners claim that they are not gay because they sleep with other male prisoners (or rape them) and that is because they don't look at the dude they're fucking/raping as a dude but as a dude in place of a woman, for the time being at least.

And that is definitely a feminist issue, imo, as is the topic of prison rape.

Feminisim doesn't only = women and/or patriarchy.

[ttt]

So if it were women raping women and society ignoring or dismissing it, it would *not* be a feminist issue because no one is being "feminized"?

[2vermont]

Jun 21, 2012 11:31:44 GMT -5 arborgold said:

And male on male prison rape (not talking about consensual sex here) is largely a performance of power and masculinity by the rapist, and of a forceful feminization of the victim.

I'm really not getting the bolded jump. How does male on male rape feminize the victim? Why is it necessary to even say that?

[arborgold]

Jun 21, 2012 11:49:41 GMT -5 ttt said:

So if it were women raping women and society ignoring or dismissing it, it would *not* be a feminist issue because no one is being "feminized"?

I think this is a misunderstanding of the issue, ttt.

Female on female rape is still a feminist issue, because there are still issues of power, of sexuality, and of femininity (weakness) and masculinity (power) at play.

ETA: Those parentheticals are societal constructs, not what I personally believe.

[iammalcolmx]

Besides the point of the original article to shed light on the fact that so many men get raped because it's traditionally thought of someone that mostly happens to women, I don't understand why gender was even brought up. Rape awful violent crime period.

[heyjude]

I've always been uncomfortable with giving feminism a broader meaning. I think that just waters down feminism. Prison rape is a problem. But it's not feminism's problem.

[dylanite]

'rape awful violent crime period' lol.

[iammalcolmx]

Jun 21, 2012 11:54:25 GMT -5 @bunnybean said:

I know the nest never forgets, but you'd really hope it grows the fuck up and gets over shit. I guess not?

The irony.......

[ttt]

You could really make *anything* into a feminist issue. I just think this is a stretch. People don't care about prison rape primarily because they think if you're in prison, you're a bad person who deserves anything that happens to you. So with all the things to care about in the world, why are they going to spend time worrying about rapists getting raped?

[ttt]

Jun 21, 2012 11:57:52 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I've always been uncomfortable with giving feminism a broader meaning. I think that just waters down feminism. Prison rape is a problem. But it's not feminism's problem.

Agreed.

[pedanticwench]

I'm laughing at the idea that "feminism" can only handle so many of the world's problems. It's a term that can encompass a variety of issues. There is no arbitrary number of issues that, at a certain point, feminism can't "handle."

[iammalcolmx]

Jun 21, 2012 12:00:28 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jun 21, 2012 11:57:52 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I've always been uncomfortable with giving feminism a broader meaning. I think that just waters down feminism. Prison rape is a problem. But it's not feminism's problem.

Agreed.

Thank you......

[heyjude]

Traffic could be a feminist issue because women drive to work. But if feminists make traffic congestion their swan song they do so at the expense of other issues that are inherently women's issues. A movement cannot w/stand so many divergent issues. It won't work.

[pedanticwench]

An absolutely stupid comparison and you know it. Come on.

[cookiemdough]

Jun 21, 2012 11:48:24 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

I get what BB is saying and I think those that disagree might just be misunderstanding her.

I think we all understand that the reason why gay male sex makes some people uncomfortable is because it makes one of the men play the part of the "woman;" ie. penetrated.

I've seen prison documentaries (H is big on that stuff) where male prisoners claim that they are not gay because they sleep with other male prisoners (or rape them) and that is because they don't look at the dude they're fucking/raping as a dude but as a dude in place of a woman, for the time being at least.And that is definitely a feminist issue, imo, as is the topic of prison rape.

Feminisim doesn't only = women and/or patriarchy.

I don't get this at all. This asserts that the intention of a rapist is a sexual act and imo it is an act of violence. To me once you have raped someone regardless of their gender, you can't casually say the lack of having a female alternative made you do it and that be an accepted answer in our society.

And I don't agree that this is a feminist issue.

[heyjude]

Jun 21, 2012 12:08:33 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

An absolutely stupid comparison and you know it. Come on.

Nope.

[pedanticwench]

Jun 21, 2012 12:08:58 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

I don't get this at all. This asserts that the intention of a rapist is a sexual act and imo it is an act of violence. To me once you have raped someone regardless of their gender, you can't casually say the lack of having a female alternative made you do it and that be an accepted answer in our society.

And I don't agree that this is a feminist issue.

Of course it's not an acceptable answer.

But, that type of reasoning is made by someone who clearly defines women in a weaker or subservient role.

[ttt]

Jun 21, 2012 12:12:16 GMT -5 @bunnybean said:

Jun 21, 2012 12:11:09 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Nope.

This is specifically sexual, and in sexual politics, feminism very often comes into play.

I thought rape wasn't about sex.

[cookiemdough]

Jun 21, 2012 12:12:00 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

Of course it's not an acceptable answer.

But, that type of reasoning is made by someone who clearly defines women in a weaker or subservient role.

I am sorry you are going to have to point me to some kind of scientific evidence that men rape other men because they view them as women. The delusions of a man who believes he did not essentially rape someone and instead he was just making a "substitution" is delusional and only trying to justify his actions. That is like saying a priest would not molest a little boy if only they could get married.

[pedanticwench]

Jun 21, 2012 12:14:43 GMT -5 nuggetbrain said:

Question. Isn't the entire point of rape not sexual, but pretty much a power play? I mean sure they get off, but isn't the entire mindset behind a rape having power over the victim? So I'm still not fully sure how "having power over the victim" = "making the victim feminized in their minds".

You don't get how having power over someone can also (in the rapist's mind, at least) mean feminizing them? Really? Because it's as plain as day for me.

nuggetbrain said:

Also, if having gay sex (forced or not) means one person is feminized then that means ALL gay sex is a feminist issue.

You're being obtuse.

[pedanticwench]

cookiemdough said:

I am sorry you are going to have to point me to some kind of scientific evidence that men rape other men because they view them as women. The delusions of a man who believes he did not essentially rape someone and instead he was just making a "substitution" is delusional and only trying to justify his actions. That is like saying a priest would not molest a little boy if only they could get married.

I'm speaking in the context of PRISON rape.

[heyjude]

Jun 21, 2012 12:14:43 GMT -5 nuggetbrain said:

Question. Isn't the entire point of rape not sexual, but pretty much a power play? I mean sure they get off, but isn't the entire mindset behind a rape having power over the victim? So I'm still not fully sure how "having power over the victim" = "making the victim feminized in their minds". They look at them as prey, or as a victim, not as a woman.

Also, if having gay sex (forced or not) means one person is feminized then that means ALL gay sex is a feminist issue.

Exactly.

Are gay issues feminist ones? (non snarky q).

[dylanite]

Sex has to play a large part at least most of the time, I'd imagine. If it were solely about power, I'd think a simple ass whooping would suffice. Or judgment on the victim's parenting skills.

[arborgold]

The purposeful obtuseness in this thread is hurting my head.

Rape is indeed about power, not about sex. It's also about a performance of masculinity (the societal equivalent of power) and femininity (the societal equivalent of lack of power).

Male on male rape, female on female rape, male on female rape, and female on male rape: ALL of these involve issues of power, and the performance of masculinity and femininity.

This isn't about turning the victim into a woman - this about the victim being feminized in the sense that the victim takes on the attributes (or is forced to take them on, rather) of the societal idealized version of femininity - being weak, powerless, etc, etc.

I can't really explain it any simpler than that, folks. I just can't.

[arborgold]

Jun 21, 2012 12:18:36 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Jun 21, 2012 12:14:43 GMT -5 nuggetbrain said:

Question. Isn't the entire point of rape not sexual, but pretty much a power play? I mean sure they get off, but isn't the entire mindset behind a rape having power over the victim? So I'm still not fully sure how "having power over the victim" = "making the victim feminized in their minds". They look at them as prey, or as a victim, not as a woman.

Also, if having gay sex (forced or not) means one person is feminized then that means ALL gay sex is a feminist issue.

Exactly.

Are gay issues feminist ones? (non snarky q).

Yes.

[cookiemdough]

Jun 21, 2012 12:17:55 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

cookiemdough said:

I am sorry you are going to have to point me to some kind of scientific evidence that men rape other men because they view them as women. The delusions of a man who believes he did not essentially rape someone and instead he was just making a "substitution" is delusional and only trying to justify his actions. That is like saying a priest would not molest a little boy if only they could get married.

I'm speaking in the context of PRISON rape.

And? I personally don't believe the circumstances of prison drives someone to rape who ordinarily would not do so. Which is why I asked is there something other than jailhouse interviews that supports that men are actually resorting to this type of action solely due to a lack of a female alternative.

[arborgold]

Jun 21, 2012 12:19:23 GMT -5 dylanite said:

Sex has to play a large part at least most of the time, I'd imagine. If it were solely about power, I'd think a simple ass whooping would suffice. Or judgment on the victim's parenting skills.

The ultimate display of power is to violate someone's bodily integrity. And the ultimate way to violate someone's bodily integrity is to penetrate them sexually.

Sex is about sex. Rape is about power.

There is prison sex, and there is prison rape.

Prison sex is about sex (though there are still some incredibly intriguing issues of masculinity and femininity at play there). Prison rape is about power.

[pedanticwench]

I don't claim to have a vast amount of knowledge when it comes to feminism. In fact, there are probably other posters here who have a better understanding of it than I do.

I know enough, though, to consider the issue of prison rape at least a peripheral feminist issue.

I'm sorry if I sounded pretentious.

[smock]

This reminds me of a book I read a while back called "In the Land of God and Man," by Silviana Paternostro. It's about gender expectations in Catholic Latin America, and claims that married monogamous women are at a greater risk of being HIV-positive than female prostitutes, because prostitutes can insist on using condoms with their clients. One part of the book talks about the definition of masculinity in Paternostro's native Colombia, and what really stood out to me was the discussion of men having sex with other men to prove their manliness. She relates through interviews how having sex with another man is the ultimate way to prove you're a real manly guy (as long as you're the "active" partner). Of course, the penetrated partner is seen as weak and feminine and loses machismo from the encounter.

So yes, men having sex with men can bring up all sorts of issues about gender roles and gendered behavior.