I don't like this idea that anyone who doesn't ascribe to a certain feminist theory is obtuse. We are having a very interesting discussion no matter your side. You can leave name calling at the door.
The purposeful obtuseness in this thread is hurting my head.
Rape is indeed about power, not about sex. It's also about a performance of masculinity (the societal equivalent of power) and femininity (the societal equivalent of lack of power).
Male on male rape, female on female rape, male on female rape, and female on male rape: ALL of these involve issues of power, and the performance of masculinity and femininity.
This isn't about turning the victim into a woman - this about the victim being feminized in the sense that the victim takes on the attributes (or is forced to take them on, rather) of the societal idealized version of femininity - being weak, powerless, etc, etc.
I can't really explain it any simpler than that, folks. I just can't.
Perhaps we (b/c I'm on Team Emmy) are disagreeing b/c we don't agree that being weak and powerless is society's idealized version of femininity. Therefore we can't agree that a weak, powerless man is feminized.
I don't get this at all. This asserts that the intention of a rapist is a sexual act and imo it is an act of violence. To me once you have raped someone regardless of their gender, you can't casually say the lack of having a female alternative made you do it and that be an accepted answer in our society.
And I don't agree that this is a feminist issue.
I've never taken the time to ask a rapist, but I wonder how often one might perceive it to be an act of violence vs. a sexual act. It is absolutely an act of violence and control, but it seems quite possible that someone could believe they were doing it for the sex. Not that it makes a shitbit of difference, just a passing curiosity.
Re: feminist issue, I understand the argument of feminizing etc, but IMO calling it a feminist issue diminishes the issue of prison rape as well as dilutes the message of feminism.
So....if there were a whole lot of women in prison and they raped each other, would that then be a masculine issue (rather than a feminist issue) because one woman would be masculinizing another?
No, not being obtuse, trying to see how this would work if these weren't men, but women.
There's an interesting book called "Prison Masculinities" by Don Sabo that discusses prison rape quite a bit. I think most sociologists would argue that prison rape IS a feminist issue, but might differ on why.
At the bare minimum, the power the insertive partner gains by penetrating the other man (because there are SOOOO few cases of men raping other men by being the penetrated partner, such as forcing a BJ on someone) as well as calling him common terms like "bitch" or "cvnt" as a way of shaming him and making him "less than" definitely provides evidence that women have a long way to go in terms of how we are viewed by some in society. Many of these men are further feminized. They're forced to perform domestic chores for their rapists, continue having sex on demand, and many even must adopt more feminine appearances or mannerisms. After all, you don't hear of many rapists who call their victims "dude" or "bro" or "dick" as derogatory terms or force them to play sports or drink a beer (I'm not being facetious.)
Those who want to be more involved in the issue, though, could argue that concepts of subordination and domination and marginalization extend beyond the categories of man and woman. The same man could be subordinated within prison walls, but dominant outside, for example. I get the concept of "bigger fish to fry" but I'm not sure how to separate out the lack of respect for women's (or feminine) bodies from a lack of equal pay or lack of respect for women's views from a cultural standpoint. All of these things are tied together.
As a completely separate side note, I went on a tour of a maximum security prison recently. The assistant warden was "joking" about prison rape. Thankfully most of my class gave him the side eye and he shut up quickly.
So....if there were a whole lot of women in prison and they raped each other, would that then be a masculine issue (rather than a feminist issue) because one woman would be masculinizing another?
No, not being obtuse, trying to see how this would work if these weren't men, but women.
No. Because of the lack of more accurate terminology, it's still a feminist issue. It's about gender politics and power.
Not putting you down bunny at all...hope you know that.....but I seriously do not get this.
At the bare minimum, the power the insertive partner gains by penetrating the other man (because there are SOOOO few cases of men raping other men by being the penetrated partner, such as forcing a BJ on someone) as well as calling him common terms like "bitch" or "cvnt" as a way of shaming him and making him "less than" definitely provides evidence that women have a long way to go in terms of how we are viewed by some in society.
So you are assigning what society thinks of women based on what these disgusting rapists think/do call their victims??? WTH?
There's an interesting book called "Prison Masculinities" by Don Sabo that discusses prison rape quite a bit. I think most sociologists would argue that prison rape IS a feminist issue, but might differ on why.
At the bare minimum, the power the insertive partner gains by penetrating the other man (because there are SOOOO few cases of men raping other men by being the penetrated partner, such as forcing a BJ on someone) as well as calling him common terms like "bitch" or "cvnt" as a way of shaming him and making him "less than" definitely provides evidence that women have a long way to go in terms of how we are viewed by some in society. Many of these men are further feminized. They're forced to perform domestic chores for their rapists, continue having sex on demand, and many even must adopt more feminine appearances or mannerisms. After all, you don't hear of many rapists who call their victims "dude" or "bro" or "dick" as derogatory terms or force them to play sports or drink a beer (I'm not being facetious.)
Those who want to be more involved in the issue, though, could argue that concepts of subordination and domination and marginalization extend beyond the categories of man and woman. The same man could be subordinated within prison walls, but dominant outside, for example. I get the concept of "bigger fish to fry" but I'm not sure how to separate out the lack of respect for women's (or feminine) bodies from a lack of equal pay or lack of respect for women's views from a cultural standpoint. All of these things are tied together.
As a completely separate side note, I went on a tour of a maximum security prison recently. The assistant warden was "joking" about prison rape. Thankfully most of my class gave him the side eye and he shut up quickly.
And that's fine. What is your basis for that? What do you think is society's version of femininity?
After reading through all of this, I think this is where the issue is. There isn't ONE definition in society of what femininity is. There are elements that many of us may agree on, but as one broad overall definition that we all do? I don't think it exists. Therefore, we're going to have a fundamental disagreement over this issue.
I like Arbor's explanation of this. It makes sense. For me, I don't necessarily 100% agree with it, but I can see where the viewpoint comes from.
Post by pedanticwench on Jun 21, 2012 13:23:44 GMT -5
I do think that, overall, our culture/society has a way of defining what femininity is and isn't. To say that there isn't a general idea amongst all of us as to what being feminine means is silliness.
Just google the word feminine or femininity. And vice versa masculine or masculinity.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
I do think that, overall, our culture/society has a way of defining what femininity is and isn't. To say that there isn't a general idea amongst all of us as to what being feminine means is silliness.
Just google the word feminine or femininity. And vice versa masculine or masculinity.
Overall, yes. There is a simplistic definition that exists. But in this specific example here, I think we've gone beyond simplistic.
Arbor put in her example that the societal idealized version of femininity includes being weak, powerless, etc. Caden came back and said she (and others) are disagreeing because they don't think weak/powerless are society's idealized version of femininity. When you get into the idea of society's 'ideal version', you've gone beyond simple definition and into nuances. Which society? Society overall? Liberal society? Conservative society? Society in the northeast vs. southeast? East coast v. west coast? All very different.
So no. I'm not saying there isn't a general idea of femininity amongst us. I'm saying we're not going to agree once we get down into debating the subtleties of what it individually means to each of us, and the nuances/subtleties is what keep it from having one defining definition that everyone will agree on.
The purposeful obtuseness in this thread is hurting my head.
Rape is indeed about power, not about sex. It's also about a performance of masculinity (the societal equivalent of power) and femininity (the societal equivalent of lack of power).
Male on male rape, female on female rape, male on female rape, and female on male rape: ALL of these involve issues of power, and the performance of masculinity and femininity.
This isn't about turning the victim into a woman - this about the victim being feminized in the sense that the victim takes on the attributes (or is forced to take them on, rather) of the societal idealized version of femininity - being weak, powerless, etc, etc.
I can't really explain it any simpler than that, folks. I just can't.
Thank you! You are so eloquent on this issue. I don't see how male-on-male rape can't be seen as emasculating.
As for gay issues being feminist issues - sometimes. I know a lot of people don't like the "isms" to be compared, since different movements struggle with unique problems, but racism, sexism, heterosexism, etc. do have a lot of interlocking issues.
I will give 2 examples (I hope - this may be a stretch) in society which demonstrate how the negative aspects of feminization (powerlessness) are routinely reinforced.
1) Let's say you have a college-aged guy who picks up a banana in his dining hall. He eats the banana by breaking it apart and eating small pieces, rather than inserting a phallic-looking fruit into his mouth, either because his friends will tell him he looks gay, or he is uncomfortable with something that mimics penetration.
2) People ignorant of gay couples will wonder (or even ask) "who's the 'woman'?" in a gay male relationship. Oftentimes, they will assume it's the more feminine partner. Because a female is the one who IS penetrated (passive) vs. doing the penetration (aggressive). In addition, more effeminate gay men seem to be characterized and mocked more than those who can "pass." Same with feminine-looking lesbians vs. "butch" lesbians. I have a close friend who is always told how she's a "lipstick lesbian" and invited to join in sexual exploits because she's "hot." Conversely, people think she must be attracted to more "masculine" types of women (she's not).
Both of those things implicitly state that penetration = female = weak. And I'd be surprised if most people here have never heard of or scene similar scenarios.
So any and all rape is a feminist issue? And where do you draw the line if it is not?
I think equality between the sexes would go a long way to decreasing ALL rape, not just male-on-female rape, because if you don't view male and female roles as strong v. weak and/or a power issue, then you take away the element of power when it comes to making someone into a victim.
I think you could argue that any act which is meant to emasculate a man has a feminist dimension, whether that act is motivated by sex or violence. Male on female rape is about asserting male power through sexual violence. Isn't male on male rape about the same thing (asserting that you're more masculine than your victim because you can force him to be penetrated)? Emasculation is effective precisely because of the assumption that women are inferior.
Team bunny and arbor.
And am I the only one who's loving the curious juxtaposition of bunny's comments and her siggy?
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
At the bare minimum, the power the insertive partner gains by penetrating the other man (because there are SOOOO few cases of men raping other men by being the penetrated partner, such as forcing a BJ on someone) as well as calling him common terms like "bitch" or "cvnt" as a way of shaming him and making him "less than" definitely provides evidence that women have a long way to go in terms of how we are viewed by some in society.
So you are assigning what society thinks of women based on what these disgusting rapists think/do call their victims??? WTH?
No. Not at all. I'm just assuming that most of us are well versed enough in feminism and feminist theory that I can skip over the, "Well, not ALL men think this about ALL women..." parts of the conversation. I assumed that saying "how we are viewed by SOME in society" was good enough.
I think you could argue that any act which is meant to emasculate a man has a feminist dimension, whether that act is motivated by sex or violence. Male on female rape is about asserting male power through sexual violence. Isn't male on male rape about the same thing (asserting that you're more masculine than your victim because you can force him to be penetrated)? Emasculation is effective precisely because of the assumption that women are inferior.
So the answer is yes? All rape is a feminist issue? And this would include the example I gave earlier regarding molestation of kids? I am just trying to understand because when other scenarios were thrown out there it was steered back to us discussing PRISON RAPE as if this dynamic alone is what makes it a feminist issue and other forms would not exist outside of that context.
I don't see how male-on-male sex can't be seen as emasculating.
Really??
Perhaps you meant to write "male-on-male rape with a heterosexual victim." Otherwise we've got some talking to do.
Whoa! Sorry, changed to rape, which is most definitely what I meant to say.
And no, not just with a heterosexual victim. You're sexual orientation doesn't come into play when being raped. Otherwise, most male-on-female rape wouldn't be a problem, would it? Gay men can most certainly be raped.
A mere technicality but I'm compelled to mention - I don't think emasculation works because of an 'assumption' that women are inferior, but rather the perception...
However, maybe that's not the reason either. Isn't it often derogatory for a member of either gender to be accused of acting like the opposite gender? If so, inferiority might have nothing to do with why emasculation works.
So the answer is yes? All rape is a feminist issue?
Not all rape is intended to emasculate nor is it all targeted against women. Gay man on gay man rape is not intended to emasculate. Nor is child rape (in most instances). Rape intended to emasculate becomes something that can be discussed in terms of feminism *because of that emasculizing intent*. That doesn't mean feminism is the only lens through which you can discuss it.
(emasculizing is either a fake word or misspelled but I'm typing quick and dirty here).
See, I'd argue that some gay male on gay male rape would be about emasculation becuase there's a hierarchy of masculinity that occurs within subgroups as well. For example, among low income, white Southern males, following NASCAR culture may be seen as more masculine than, say, reading the WSJ. However, the opposite might be true (on average) among high income, Northern Hispanic men.
Whoa! Sorry, changed to rape, which is most definitely what I meant to say.
And no, not just with a heterosexual victim. You're sexual orientation doesn't come into play when being raped. Otherwise, most male-on-female rape wouldn't be a problem, would it? Gay men can most certainly be raped.
But gay on gay rape is not intended to emasculate the victim. Humiliate, yes, emasculate, no (unless there are specific identity crisis issues going on with the perpetrator independent of the rape).
Indeed, but if the perpetrator is not gay (even if the victim is), I don't know if you can say what his intentions are. He might not even know the sexual orientation of his victim, depending on the circumstances of the rape.
Indeed, but if the perpetrator is not gay (even if the victim is), I don't know if you can say what his intentions are. He might not even know the sexual orientation of his victim, depending on the circumstances of the rape.
But if the perpetrator isn't gay, then it isn't gay on gay rape...
ETA: I think I'm arguing in circle with you (because I am possibly misreading) so I should drop it :-)
Yeah, I thought you said my phrasing should be "male on male rape with a heterosexual victim." If you started talking about gay rape, my bad.
But this is overly specific and not really relevant anymore.
How? I seriously don't understand what you're talking about.
My guess is it might tie to your past comment of people don't grow after a certain age (McDonnell, I believe and his thesis paper..not positive I have the exact details, but that is the gist).
So you are assigning what society thinks of women based on what these disgusting rapists think/do call their victims??? WTH?
No. Not at all. I'm just assuming that most of us are well versed enough in feminism and feminist theory that I can skip over the, "Well, not ALL men think this about ALL women..." parts of the conversation. I assumed that saying "how we are viewed by SOME in society" was good enough.
But you see it doesn't matter that you focus on "some" because you are taking what "some" (a very small percentage actually) guys do and generalizing it by making what they do a feminist, female issue. I just am not buying into this. Does everything always come back to women being victims? And it may cause others to flame me, but I'm beginning to think that some folks can't help but see things that way.