I hear you on that and I agree. However, it's not always an option to increase their income. Additionally, everyone has different definitions of comfortable. My comfortable is being able to put a roof over my head, food on the table, pay my bills, put a little in savings/retirement and have fun adventures with friends. Now, I do this in non-MM ways, but always consider MM ideals.
It may not be an option this year or next but if someone is posting on MM I think they have the ability to grow their income in the long term. If someone is living paycheck to paycheck they need to see a path to a brighter future, be it education, an apprenticeship, or just finding someone to believe in them and help them out. Even you have mentioned that your next move is a stepping stones for bigger things.
I'm not talking about me here. I'm not concerned about my income, my budget, etc.
I'm talking about the people who don't necessarily have means to education, apprenticeship, or someone to believe in them. If it was that easy to "find a light at the end of the tunnel" there would be no poverty level.
Also, plenty of people live paycheck to paycheck and are able to save, contribute to retirement and enjoy their lives.
Keeping in mind your single woman living in LA example: 1. 40k as said earlier is tight, but still getting by. 2. A few that come to mind - Admin Assistant, Service Cashier at an Auto Dealership, Retail Manager
Yes, people raise families on lower incomes. It's completely possible. Would I want to do it? No. I personally think it is too low.
I wouldn't necessarily call those careers.....
And I personally think that a single person on less than $40K is doable.
Sometimes this board is so skewed from reality it is disgusting. I get great money advice here, yes and share it with family/friends, but it's not always realistic for the non-MM world.
Uh, they are for some people. Last year MH and I made 40K combined in MCOL. Our budget is tight but doable. I suspect we would be told we need more income. I wouldn't find it judgy, it's the truth. But we also have high SL payments due to some expen$ive mistakes. Low income or needing to bring in more income is all relative. If you feel comfortable, are paying all your bills and aren't adding to debt every month then you probably don't need more income.
ETA: and since you seem to be taking "you" personally, I don't mean you, I mean any person in general.
It may not be an option this year or next but if someone is posting on MM I think they have the ability to grow their income in the long term. If someone is living paycheck to paycheck they need to see a path to a brighter future, be it education, an apprenticeship, or just finding someone to believe in them and help them out. Even you have mentioned that your next move is a stepping stones for bigger things.
I'm not talking about me here. I'm not concerned about my income, my budget, etc.
I'm talking about the people who don't necessarily have means to education, apprenticeship, or someone to believe in them. If it was that easy to "find a light at the end of the tunnel" there would be no poverty level.
Also, plenty of people live paycheck to paycheck and are able to save, contribute to retirement and enjoy their lives.
But that's not living paycheck to paycheck. Living paycheck to paycheck means you can't save. If you don't get you're next check something goes unpaid and your SOL.
And I personally think that a single person on less than $40K is doable.
Sometimes this board is so skewed from reality it is disgusting. I get great money advice here, yes and share it with family/friends, but it's not always realistic for the non-MM world.
And who's not being realistic? (rhetorical)
They most certainly are careers. They may not be ones you would want to pursue, but many people do.
I, infact, make 45k with the title "Administrative Assistant." I, infact, made 40k easily as a Service Cashier. It is MY choice for a profession.
I also want to point out that those are a few careers. There are plenty more out there. Even though they may not be something you choose.
LOL. I, infact, was an Administrative Assistant at 20-22 and easily made $35K BEFORE bonuses which pushed me into $40-45K.
But this thread is about to blow up and I'm not in the mood for it. It is getting off topic and I'm walking away before shit goes cray. I'm going to sit on my hands and watch what happens.
It may not be an option this year or next but if someone is posting on MM I think they have the ability to grow their income in the long term. If someone is living paycheck to paycheck they need to see a path to a brighter future, be it education, an apprenticeship, or just finding someone to believe in them and help them out. Even you have mentioned that your next move is a stepping stones for bigger things.
I'm not talking about me here. I'm not concerned about my income, my budget, etc.
I'm talking about the people who don't necessarily have means to education, apprenticeship, or someone to believe in them. If it was that easy to "find a light at the end of the tunnel" there would be no poverty level.
Also, plenty of people live paycheck to paycheck and are able to save, contribute to retirement and enjoy their lives.
It sounds like you don't know what "paycheck to paycheck" means.
Aren't "paycheck to paycheck" and "able to save" mutually exclusive? If you have savings, by definition, you aren't living paycheck to paycheck. (you might be budgeting to a monthly net zero, but that isn't necessarily living paycheck to paycheck)
It may not be an option this year or next but if someone is posting on MM I think they have the ability to grow their income in the long term. If someone is living paycheck to paycheck they need to see a path to a brighter future, be it education, an apprenticeship, or just finding someone to believe in them and help them out. Even you have mentioned that your next move is a stepping stones for bigger things.
I'm not talking about me here. I'm not concerned about my income, my budget, etc.
I'm talking about the people who don't necessarily have means to education, apprenticeship, or someone to believe in them. If it was that easy to "find a light at the end of the tunnel" there would be no poverty level.
Also, plenty of people live paycheck to paycheck and are able to save, contribute to retirement and enjoy their lives.
If you are saving you aren't living paycheck to paycheck.
I'm not talking about me here. I'm not concerned about my income, my budget, etc.
I'm talking about the people who don't necessarily have means to education, apprenticeship, or someone to believe in them. If it was that easy to "find a light at the end of the tunnel" there would be no poverty level.
Also, plenty of people live paycheck to paycheck and are able to save, contribute to retirement and enjoy their lives.
If you are saving you aren't living paycheck to paycheck.
Okay and what about the people who save and then have to deplete their savings when something goes wrong. So while saving $10/month may not be paycheck to paycheck, but when something happens and they have to deplete their couple hundred savings does that not count? Or the people who withdrawal from retirement when something happens.
Just because people may be able to save a tiny, tiny (by MM standards) bit doesn't mean they aren't living paycheck to paycheck. If that savings/retirement is depleted every 3,6,9 months and isn't the standard 3 months worth of expenses, well, then yes, I consider them living paycheck to paycheck.
Keeping in mind your single woman living in LA example: 1. 40k as said earlier is tight, but still getting by. 2. A few that come to mind - Admin Assistant, Service Cashier at an Auto Dealership, Retail Manager
Yes, people raise families on lower incomes. It's completely possible. Would I want to do it? No. I personally think it is too low.
I wouldn't necessarily call those careers.....
And I personally think that a single person on less than $40K is doable.
Sometimes this board is so skewed from reality it is disgusting. I get great money advice here, yes and share it with family/friends, but it's not always realistic for the non-MM world.
Those are careers for many people. But my Admin Assistant in NYC would probably kill people to earn 40k....she earns 28k and has an associate's degree*. Granted, we're a social work office, but we pay people with master's degrees and several years of experience 40k. AAs, not so much.
*And she told me today that she's been off of her meds for several days this week because she can't pay the copays until pay day. That makes me sick.
I'm just here to say that retail manager, admin assistant, etc are most certainly careers.
And you say MM posters are judgmental.
Isn't Bliss the same person who had issues with the infamous "just a waitress" comment? Apparently it's OK to knock admins, et. al, but not waitresses? Got it.
Post by hypersion on Sept 19, 2013 22:49:49 GMT -5
Adjusting for inflation I didn't feel financially secure until I made $43K a year in HCOL area (OC, CA.) I could live in a decent apartment, drive a nice car, save for retirement and have some fun money.
I made around $40k in a MCOL living at home with parents (but with high SL) & I felt that was low 12yrs ago. I also think it depends on expectations...I spent 7yrs & 6 figures getting my degrees so to come out of that make so little felt low. I think under $50 is still low especially over a decade later & in a HCOL. People do it fine on less but a lot of factors come into play, including assistance as people raising a family (2+ kids) on $30k likely qualify for "help" (WIC, school lunch, possibly food stamps, chip or Medicaid, etc).
Post by awkwardpenguin on Sept 19, 2013 23:32:32 GMT -5
For several years, my exH and I lived on $32k in income, paid student loans and a car loan, and saved for retirement. Things were tight, but we were not "low income" by any real measure - didn't qualify for food stamps or reduced bus fare, nor should we have. We lived in a safe neighborhood in a LCOL area, took modest vacations, and lived what I would consider a middle class lifestyle.
Oh wow, this is referencing me. I was the one who said their incomes were low and asked if there was any way they could make more. OK, so. I wasn't being pretentious or critical when I said their income was low. And the next thing I said after "can you earn more" was "I know that's easier said than done." I'm very aware that it's not often an easy thing to do. But I don't know their situations. Maybe one of them isn't working full time. Maybe one of them has been thinking about looking for higher paying jobs for a while but has been dragging their feet. Maybe they weren't aware that their salaries are relatively low. Who knows. When I respond to a budget post, I make all the suggestions I can think of, in case something will work.
The income in that post was $3200, for two people. They're trying to pay a off CC debt, a car loan, another loan, I believe a medical bill, and build up savings. That's just not quite enough income to accomplish all of those things. The OP in that post asked "what are we doing wrong?" Well, nothing. It's just that they don't make a huge amount of money, so after average basic living expenses, they're not going to have a ton to work with to cover all of their goals. Maybe that realization will make them think "Oh, ok then, maybe we just have to be patient and get to things as we can," and if that helps their outlook a bit, then great. Maybe it would have come across less high-horsey to you if I had said "that's probably not enough income to handle all of these expenses as quickly as you might like." But (and I might have misjudged this, it's certainly possible) I didn't think the OP needed me to be that specific, and that's who I had in mind when I was responding.
And anyway, that OP's expenses notwithstanding, $3200 *is* a bit low for two people. It's $1600 per person, which works out to what, around $28k or so gross? That's relatively low on the salary scale. I didn't say it was "WAY too low," which is how you describe it in a followup comment. I said it was kind of low, and it is. Again, that's not criticism, it's just a numeric observation.
If you were to look at my posting history in budget posts (and I'm not suggesting you do so, unless you're having trouble sleeping, lol), I think you would see that I'm not one to be pretentious or snooty to someone who's having budget issues. I've been in shitty financial situations, and I know how much it sucks. In our case there was not much we could do except wait it out and pay things off little by little, which is exactly what we did. And even though the OP of that other post is trying her to use her income as wisely as possible, which is smart, she might have to wait it out to some extent too. I would guess that that's how most people manage it, actually - you're broke in your 20s, then once you get into your 30s, your debts decrease and your income increases, and things start to get easier.
Bliss you sound really jealous that you are struggling while others "by MM standards" (what does that even mean?) are not.
Not all of us our dreamers like you who are willing to pick up and move to Hollywood. Some of us started working for a corporation after college and work their way up. So while you may think certain jobs aren't careers, they can be, of they can be your foot in the door to a stable job.
We were just complaining about how slow/boring the MM board has been.....
:-)
You people act like I don't know how to rile you up. Cracks me up.
Your welcome. Lmao.
ETA - signed former administrative assistant, retail manager, executive assistant, and coordinator. I started as a customer service rep at 17 and worked my way up. Now, 10 years later I'm getting opportunities I didn't think were possible but I worked my ass off to get. I'm a dreamer, but I'm also a fighter. And am moving to LA to chase a dream I never thought would come true. So sure, call me bitter. But I'm damn happy and proud of myself.
ETA 2 - I am not struggling. But I know plenty of people are and sometimes budget responses are so over the top.
I'll continue to play this game, cause I am bored.
So Bliss what do you suggest we say when someone has a budget where the math doesn't work? "Well your just poor, go get some skittles before the House takes them away."
It's also about owning the income or expenses issue.
If someone brings home less than their expenses for whatever reason, and they're drowning in debt, it does the person a disservice to not address it. We're largely supportive and understanding, but get real.
Justifying certain expenses is ok at a certain income level. For us, it probably came when our HHI was $5k/mo and included membership to a rock climbing gym for DH, more $$ for eating out, etc.
But if you're taking home $3k/mo as a family and have, just as an example, a high rent/mortgage for your income, a car payment, student loans, a high CC balance and want to keep your smartphone and cable (clearly luxuries), are unwilling to look for a second job, sell some stuff, or make any sort of changes I'm sorry, I can't justify that.
Post by phunluvin82 on Sept 20, 2013 11:16:50 GMT -5
Ok, so I'm going to use a net of $3k a month just as an example because it seems to be in the range that is up for debate here...
Scenario #1: Rent, utilities, and necessities like food and gas take up a lot of that $3k. Debt obligations like loans, CC payments, car payments take up all of what little remains and there is little or nothing leftover for small luxuries, for fluff, frills, retirement saving, or even a decent efund.
Scenario #2: Rent, utilities, and necessities take up a fair amount of that $3k, but other expenses are very low...no CC debt, car is paid off so no car payment, etc. There is some money leftover to contribute a little bit to retirement and a little bit to savings. Nobody is swimming through money piles like Scrooge McDuck, but there is a bit of money left for some fun here and there.
By MM standards (otherwise known as basic math), the person in scenario #1 has an income that is "too low", while the person in scenario #2 does not. Yet, both incomes are EXACTLY the same. Weird how that works...I conclude that it must be a sign of typical MM judgmental uppity-ness.
We were just complaining about how slow/boring the MM board has been.....
:-)
You people act like I don't know how to rile you up. Cracks me up.
Your welcome. Lmao.
So you're saying this was all a big joke after I put some thought and time into writing out a lengthy, earnest response? That was unnecessarily shitty, even for you. I usually avoid your posts, and the few times I do participate in them, I usually end up regretting it. And this is no exception. Thanks for the reminder.
ETA: I just realized who you remind me of. I have a family member who pokes and prods and annoys relentlessly, then when someone finally snaps and tells them to knock it off, they get all "Why are you getting all riled up? Jeeeeeez, touchyyyy." It's a ploy for attention in the way that only the truly fucked up can execute. It makes sense now.
Post by msmerymac on Sept 20, 2013 11:30:54 GMT -5
I lived for several years in LA on about $30k, once in a studio alone (no car payment) and the rest of the time with roommates. This was in the Hollywood/West Hollywood/Mid-Wilshire area. You can do it. Housing costs suck, but you can do it. I did most of my shopping at Trader Joes, which I think is cheap and healthy. Also, I find public transit to be really easy in the Hollywood area and know many people who don't have cars.
LOL that this is your definition of riled up, when people are so calm and logical in this thread. MM is pretty much on Prozac here. The board is barely registering a pulse. Dr. G needs to come in with the paddles.
I’ll break it down like this. Remember when you were a kid (this may not apply to you directly, but it’s a typical kid thing, so siblings, kids you babysat, whatever, it’s like the floor being lava.)...okay, back to the story, when you were a kid (using you as a pronoun because it’s easier for me) you would pretend you had superpowers?
For example, you would pretend that by putting some “cloak” (read: bed sheet or towel) around your head/shoulders would make you invisible? And then you would go about poking and pinching your parent(s) and moving their stuff and getting up in their space, making weird noises and faces at them? You would also loudly say, in case they weren’t sure, “I’m not here!”, “I’m invisible!”, “You can’t see me” -- and they would, half paying attention, would play along, as you ran around like some kind of diseased squirrel. “Who said that?” “I don’t see anyone.” “Where is little Bliss?”
And you thought you were The Shit because you were really fooling you parents and messing with their minds, man! Like psychological warfare. After you feel that you have completely fooled them, you throw off the invisibility cloak and announce that, it was you all along! You tricked them! Booya! You giggle and giggle, because, well, you’re a genius.
Your parents, not lifting their heads from what they are doing, go “Wow, little Bliss, I had no idea you were there, the whole time.”, and continue to read 50 Shades of Grey.
The point is (tm Jenny), we can see you, Bliss, we can see you.
You people act like I don't know how to rile you up. Cracks me up.
Your welcome. Lmao.
So you're saying this was all a big joke after I put some thought and time into writing out a lengthy, earnest response? That was unnecessarily shitty, even for you. I usually avoid your posts, and the few times I do participate in them, I usually end up regretting it. And this is no exception. Thanks for the reminder.
I was going to quote your other reply but I'll do this one instead.
Hun, in no way do you need to justify your answer to Bliss.
So you're saying this was all a big joke after I put some thought and time into writing out a lengthy, earnest response? That was unnecessarily shitty, even for you. I usually avoid your posts, and the few times I do participate in them, I usually end up regretting it. And this is no exception. Thanks for the reminder.
I was going to quote your other reply but I'll do this one instead.
Hun, in no way do you need to justify your answer to Bliss.
Oh, I know. I wasn't really justifying so much as elaborating - it would have been a valid topic if it were posted by anyone else. But I should have known even that was pointless. I blame it on the late hour - I was waiting up to buy an iPhone and was tired. lol.
LOL that this is your definition of riled up, when people are so calm and logical in this thread. MM is pretty much on Prozac here. The board is barely registering a pulse. Dr. G needs to come in with the paddles.
I’ll break it down like this. Remember when you were a kid (this may not apply to you directly, but it’s a typical kid thing, so siblings, kids you babysat, whatever, it’s like the floor being lava.)...okay, back to the story, when you were a kid (using you as a pronoun because it’s easier for me) you would pretend you had superpowers?
For example, you would pretend that by putting some “cloak” (read: bed sheet or towel) around your head/shoulders would make you invisible? And then you would go about poking and pinching your parent(s) and moving their stuff and getting up in their space, making weird noises and faces at them? You would also loudly say, in case they weren’t sure, “I’m not here!”, “I’m invisible!”, “You can’t see me” -- and they would, half paying attention, would play along, as you ran around like some kind of diseased squirrel. “Who said that?” “I don’t see anyone.” “Where is little Bliss?”
And you thought you were The Shit because you were really fooling you parents and messing with their minds, man! Like psychological warfare. After you feel that you have completely fooled them, you throw off the invisibility cloak and announce that, it was you all along! You tricked them! Booya! You giggle and giggle, because, well, you’re a genius.
Your parents, not lifting their heads from what they are doing, go “Wow, little Bliss, I had no idea you were there, the whole time.”, and continue to read 50 Shades of Grey.
The point is (tm Jenny), we can see you, Bliss, we can see you.