I am not sure what post you are referring to, but to say someone's income is "low" in regards to their expenses or debt is different than generalized "low income". I think low income can vary widly depending on where you live.
For you (single in LA) I would say anything below $1800 (take home) is low. I would increase this amount if you lived in Manhattan and decrease it if you lived in a small town in Texas or Oklahoma.
From having lurked here long enough, I feel like I know what you are talking about. But I think you have maybe misinterpreted the meaning of that. That is not usually said with any sort of judgement. Sometimes in a person's budget there is room for spending cuts. But sometimes there are certain expenses that must be made (mortgage, credit card debt, etc). And if a person's income isn't large enough to support that comfortably (meaning also being able to eat, etc) then the suggestion of trying to increase income is made.
There are generally two potential causes to a tight budget, commonly referred to as a spending problem and an income problem. If you have cut spending as much as you are able, sometimes you also need to increase your income. This is not a judgement, just a mathematical fact.
Post by teengirlsquad on Sept 19, 2013 16:57:04 GMT -5
I'm single and live in a mid sized city in the Southeast and I take home roughly $1500 and I'm doing alright. But I have no debt at all...if I had to make SL or a car payment I would be in trouble. I also have to live with roommates - which doesn't bother me.
From having lurked here long enough, I feel like I know what you are talking about. But I think you have maybe misinterpreted the meaning of that. That is not usually said with any sort of judgement. Sometimes in a person's budget there is room for spending cuts. But sometimes there are certain expenses that must be made (mortgage, credit card debt, etc). And if a person's income isn't large enough to support that comfortably (meaning also being able to eat, etc) then the suggestion of trying to increase income is made.
There are generally two potential causes to a tight budget, commonly referred to as a spending problem and an income problem. If you have cut spending as much as you are able, sometimes you also need to increase your income. This is not a judgement, just a mathematical fact.
Yes, I agree. But sometimes if seems to come off as judgment. And other times it's not as easy to increase your income. (I've never had the issue, but know others who do.)
5.5 years ago, I made $32,500/year and my take home was under $1k every two weeks and I withheld very little bc I did so at the married rate. My take home at the single rate probably would have been closer to $900 every two weeks.
If I had to live on that now, I would have a really hard time. I would definitely have roommates and eat a lot of ramen.
I feel like I probably would have gotten some breathing room when I hit 30k. I'd been at 27,500 while single, and it was tough. And that was when I was living with H, so my rent and food expenses were pretty low.
Ftr - I've made over $30k for the last 4 years. And it's just now increasing. Even though I just graduated I'm in the 3-5 years of experience range, which is nice because I'm finally getting an income increase. Not much, but a decent amount. I'm happy with it. mm definitely wouldn't be, but different strokes and all that. :-)
Post by alleinesein on Sept 19, 2013 17:12:09 GMT -5
Do you still have your car? I know that you have mentioned that your monthly car expenses are high and given that I would say that in order to live in LA with a roommate you would need to bring in at least $2400 a month after taxes so that you would not be living paycheck to paycheck. Without a roommate I would say at least $3000 a month after taxes only because rent and utilities will eat up quite a bit of your income if you are living alone.
HCOL for a single person with a roommate I would be comfortable with $40K and at least $50K with no roomate in order to live comfortably instead of paycheck to paycheck.
Do you still have your car? I know that you have mentioned that your monthly car expenses are high and given that I would say that in order to live in LA with a roommate you would need to bring in at least $2400 a month after taxes so that you would not be living paycheck to paycheck. Without a roommate I would say at least $3000 a month after taxes only because rent and utilities will eat up quite a bit of your income if you are living alone.
HCOL for a single person with a roommate I would be comfortable with $40K and at least $50K with no roomate in order to live comfortably instead of paycheck to paycheck.
I'm not asking for my specific income. I was just asking in general what MM thinks.
What I consider comfortably and what you (general MM) think as comfortably is very different.
Even Suze Orman tells people their income is too low for their (fixed) expenses. It's not an attitude-thing, it's a reality thing. Not sure why you try to make something out of nothing...
I'll make it simple:
fixed expenses > income = need to increase income or reduce fixed expenses (which can't always be done)
I made $20-24K/year in grad school (MCOL). It was fine temporarily, but it wasn't sustainable long-term. I wasn't able to save for retirement or anything.
Post by Roc A Bee on Sept 19, 2013 18:23:27 GMT -5
I'm getting divorced so I'm going down to one income unexpectedly. I make $44k ish and take home $2450/month. I live in a LCOL area in CA. I probably should post my budget soon.
I think $30K for a single person is low regardless of cost of living.
I'll fess up that I've told people on multiple occasions they need to bring in more income. I'm not saying it to be snotty or because I think I am better than anyone, I'm saying it because sometimes folks have cut pretty much everywhere they cut. If an individual is making 30K and they want to be comfortable in retirement they need to put together a game plan for bringing their income up.
I think $30K for a single person is low regardless of cost of living.
I'll fess up that I've told people on multiple occasions they need to bring in more income. I'm not saying it to be snotty or because I think I am better than anyone, I'm saying it because sometimes folks have cut pretty much everywhere they cut. If an individual is making 30K and they want to be comfortable in retirement they need to put together a game plan for bringing their income up.
If the poster has cut and cut, and the numbers aren't working out, more income is needed.
It's not moral righteousness; it's just truth.
And if that was the case we wouldn't have poverty.
Post by thatgirl2478 on Sept 19, 2013 19:49:45 GMT -5
It depends on a lot of factors. How much are your bills? Do you have any debt? What kind of COL are you in?
I mean, if you're making 25k and your rent is $500 but you have no debt, then it's not THAT low if you're in a low COL area. However, if you're making 25k and rent is $500 with tons of debt and living in Chicago, then your income is probably low.
Of course, it ALSO depends on what the going rate is for your job & your years of experience doing that job in your area.
For example - my DH was working for a private not for profit agency that helped formerly homeless people with mental illnesses & substance abuse issues. He made $27k after getting additional certification (no masters, if he had his MSW while working there he would have made $32k). For that industry & his experience, he was paid fairly (meaning he couldn't go to another agency and get paid better, not that his pay reflected the value of his work). Now, he got a job with the VA as a counselor and he started out at 40k immediately (still no masters, same experience and same certification). Now that he has his masters and his LCSW he makes $65k. The first job was in Chicago, the second is in Central IL. (so HCOL to MCOL).
If you compare his pay in Chicago to mine (30 - 60k during the time we were together up there), then yes, it was low. However for his industry it was on target. If you look at his pay while employed with the VA, no I can't call it low.
I think $30K for a single person is low regardless of cost of living.
I'll fess up that I've told people on multiple occasions they need to bring in more income. I'm not saying it to be snotty or because I think I am better than anyone, I'm saying it because sometimes folks have cut pretty much everywhere they cut. If an individual is making 30K and they want to be comfortable in retirement they need to put together a game plan for bringing their income up.
I hear you on that and I agree. However, it's not always an option to increase their income. Additionally, everyone has different definitions of comfortable. My comfortable is being able to put a roof over my head, food on the table, pay my bills, put a little in savings/retirement and have fun adventures with friends. Now, I do this in non-MM ways, but always consider MM ideals.
So if $30K is too low what should a single person be making? And what career pays this untold amount? I'm not trying to be difficult, but rather understand how MM says it's impossible to live on $30K/year but people raise FAMILIES on this income. Yet, it's WAY too low for a single person.
Bliss, you're taking things completely out of context. These "That income is too low" comments come not in the context of judgment or universal truths, but in the context of budget review. And the point of a budget review is to see if you can get the numbers to work so that you can make ends meet and maybe even get ahead. If everything that can reasonably be cut has been cut and there's still a deficit, the income is objectively too low for that particular budget to work. Similar to what kirkette said, that isn't judgment -- it is math. That's all. If based on your necessary expenses you require $100,000 of income to not go deeper and deeper into debt each month, then $90,000 of income is too low and if you want the budget to work (which is the point of posting a budget), you'll need to find a source of extra funds. If you can pay all your bills and even save a little on $15,000 a year, your income level is fine. Math. That's all.
I completely agree with what @kirkette has said. This is my personal threshold for a single person in the LA area. Obviously it would be different for different COL and other situations.
So if $30K is too low what should a single person be making? And what career pays this untold amount? I'm not trying to be difficult, but rather understand how MM says it's impossible to live on $30K/year but people raise FAMILIES on this income. Yet, it's WAY too low for a single person.
Keeping in mind your single woman living in LA example: 1. 40k as said earlier is tight, but still getting by. 2. A few that come to mind - Admin Assistant, Service Cashier at an Auto Dealership, Retail Manager
Yes, people raise families on lower incomes. It's completely possible. Would I want to do it? No. I personally think it is too low.
Bliss, you're taking things completely out of context. These "That income is too low" comments come not in the context of judgment or universal truths, but in the context of budget review. And the point of a budget review is to see if you can get the numbers to work so that you can make ends meet and maybe even get ahead. If everything that can reasonably be cut has been cut and there's still a deficit, the income is objectively too low for that particular budget to work. Similar to what kirkette said, that isn't judgment -- it is math. That's all. If based on your necessary expenses you require $100,000 of income to not go deeper and deeper into debt each month, then $90,000 of income is too low and if you want the budget to work (which is the point of posting a budget), you'll need to find a source of extra funds. If you can pay all your bills and even save a little on $15,000 a year, your income level is fine. Math. That's all.
I'm aware the context of them. I'm aware of the math and such. However, I think that the responses here in other budget posts prevent others from posting their budgets for fear of "increase your income" or "your income is too low." When for a majority of the non-MM world is not always as easy said as is done.
Hell, even @ruralrabbit said she was told her income was too low. MM is a special place where many people don't live paycheck to paycheck but there are plenty of people (and I'll bet lurkers) who do. And that likely even includes contributing a little to savings.
So if $30K is too low what should a single person be making? And what career pays this untold amount? I'm not trying to be difficult, but rather understand how MM says it's impossible to live on $30K/year but people raise FAMILIES on this income. Yet, it's WAY too low for a single person.
Keeping in mind your single woman living in LA example: 1. 40k as said earlier is tight, but still getting by. 2. A few that come to mind - Admin Assistant, Service Cashier at an Auto Dealership, Retail Manager
Yes, people raise families on lower incomes. It's completely possible. Would I want to do it? No. I personally think it is too low.
I wouldn't necessarily call those careers.....
And I personally think that a single person on less than $40K is doable.
Sometimes this board is so skewed from reality it is disgusting. I get great money advice here, yes and share it with family/friends, but it's not always realistic for the non-MM world.
I think $30K for a single person is low regardless of cost of living.
I'll fess up that I've told people on multiple occasions they need to bring in more income. I'm not saying it to be snotty or because I think I am better than anyone, I'm saying it because sometimes folks have cut pretty much everywhere they cut. If an individual is making 30K and they want to be comfortable in retirement they need to put together a game plan for bringing their income up.
I hear you on that and I agree. However, it's not always an option to increase their income. Additionally, everyone has different definitions of comfortable. My comfortable is being able to put a roof over my head, food on the table, pay my bills, put a little in savings/retirement and have fun adventures with friends. Now, I do this in non-MM ways, but always consider MM ideals.
It may not be an option this year or next but if someone is posting on MM I think they have the ability to grow their income in the long term. If someone is living paycheck to paycheck they need to see a path to a brighter future, be it education, an apprenticeship, or just finding someone to believe in them and help them out. Even you have mentioned that your next move is a stepping stones for bigger things.
Keeping in mind your single woman living in LA example: 1. 40k as said earlier is tight, but still getting by. 2. A few that come to mind - Admin Assistant, Service Cashier at an Auto Dealership, Retail Manager
Yes, people raise families on lower incomes. It's completely possible. Would I want to do it? No. I personally think it is too low.
I wouldn't necessarily call those careers.....
And I personally think that a single person on less than $40K is doable.
Sometimes this board is so skewed from reality it is disgusting. I get great money advice here, yes and share it with family/friends, but it's not always realistic for the non-MM world.
And who's not being realistic? (rhetorical)
They most certainly are careers. They may not be ones you would want to pursue, but many people do.
I, infact, make 45k with the title "Administrative Assistant." I, infact, made 40k easily as a Service Cashier. It is MY choice for a profession.
I also want to point out that those are a few careers. There are plenty more out there. Even though they may not be something you choose.