Dads need more applause, less eye-rolling

[mominatrix]

ttt said:

.... And I totally agree that men in general think they're doing way more than they actually do.

But don't you think that's true of everybody?

I know a lot of men who think they do more than they do... But I also know a lot of women who think they do it all, while their husbands really are engaged, doing stuff as well.

The only thing I got from this article was the sense that EVERYBODY thinks they do a lot of work, ans are unappreciated for it. Is that somehow news?

Sent from my HTC Glacier using ProBoards... So excuse any wonky autocorrect.

[ering1115]

Jun 25, 2012 9:13:53 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:02:48 GMT -5 ering1115 said:

My advice to new moms, play damsel in distress now or you will foever be expected to manage everything on your own. There is such a thing as being too competent when it comes to getting help when you need it, unfortunately.

OFFS. Why does it have to be a fucking game? How about "have a child with a man who is responsible and will pull his weight if you don't want to do everything for your family"? A decent person will help no matter how 'competent' you are at any given time.

This seems so childish.

Not talking about my husband. Talking about my mom, MIL and extended family. I am expected to take care of them, because I always have, no matter what is going on in my life. I realize it is a childish thing to say, but after my weekend I really wish I was more damsel in distress when DS was first born.

[wawa]

Jun 25, 2012 8:58:11 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jun 25, 2012 7:57:25 GMT -5 @246baje said:

It's like Chris Rock said- you shouldn't expect awards for something you're supposed to do. You're supposed to take care of your kids! (paraphrased and slightly out of context)

I think it's: "Those guys that say, 'I take care of my kids.' You are supposed to take care of your kids! What do you want, a fucking cookie?"

So true.

I think a lot of entertainment/movies/tv shows etc only add to this idea. Dads are constantly portrayed as bumbling idiots who put furniture polish in the dishwasher, diaper the baby's head, and send little Jenny to school in her pajamas and a lunch box full of fruit loops and pickles. Dumb people set the bar there. So when the father actually gives the child a peanut butter sandwich and an apple for lunch, dumb people think he should get a Nobel prize.

Yup.

I don't find the portrayal of men as bumbling idiots to be amusing. At all. And it's fucking pervasive.

We have to very close "couple friends." They both have kids around the same age. It's been an illuminating 4 years since they both spawned. One dad does his share because that's just how it works in his head. He is a parent; therefore he parents. Anything mom would do, he also does. they have different styles but when something needs to be done, whoever is closer or less busy just takes care of it. His daughter does tend to cling to mama when she's tired or cranky, but I don't see that as a reflection on him as a dad and more just a personality thing.

The other dad? He thinks he's living in a fucking sitcom. I swear sometimes he sits around waiting for the laughtrack to start while we all stare at him after he pulls some stupid fucking crap. Drives me batshit.

I like to think that Dad1 is more common than Dad2, but I just don't know if it's true. I am comforted by the fact that MH is sometimes more horrified than I am by Dad2's BS.

[emmybean]

Jun 25, 2012 9:18:12 GMT -5 ering1115 said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:13:53 GMT -5 emmybean said:

OFFS. Why does it have to be a fucking game? How about "have a child with a man who is responsible and will pull his weight if you don't want to do everything for your family"? A decent person will help no matter how 'competent' you are at any given time.

This seems so childish.

Not talking about my husband. Talking about my mom, MIL and extended family. I am expected to take care of them, because I always have, no matter what is going on in my life. I realize it is a childish thing to say, but after my weekend I really wish I was more damsel in distress when DS was first born.

Why are you caring for your husbands family in the first place? This isnt about being a damsel in distress, it's about not being a doormat.

[pescalita]

Jun 25, 2012 9:15:02 GMT -5 mominatrix said:

ttt said:

.... And I totally agree that men in general think they're doing way more than they actually do.

But don't you think that's true of everybody?

I know a lot of men who think they do more than they do... But I also know a lot of women who think they do it all, while their husbands really are engaged, doing stuff as well.

The only thing I got from this article was the sense that EVERYBODY thinks they do a lot of work, ans are unappreciated for it. Is that somehow news?

Sent from my HTC Glacier using ProBoards... So excuse any wonky autocorrect.

I noticed this too, people seem to believe the moms that they're doing more, and not the dads.

Women are super guilty of the "my way is the right way" thing. So if he loads the dishwasher differently, and you go back after him and do it your way, is he not pulling his weight?

[ering1115]

Jun 25, 2012 9:22:33 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:18:12 GMT -5 ering1115 said:

Not talking about my husband. Talking about my mom, MIL and extended family. I am expected to take care of them, because I always have, no matter what is going on in my life. I realize it is a childish thing to say, but after my weekend I really wish I was more damsel in distress when DS was first born.

Why are you caring for your husbands family in the first place? This isnt about being a damsel in distress, it's about not being a doormat.

Not a doormat- there are some situations where family members need help and you help them out. We come from huge extended families and that is just what you do.

[eclaires]

MH has always been really hands on, and my thought process has always been to let him do it his way and figure it out. I think that's really the only thing I've contributed to keeping our childcare duties pretty evenly split, or actively thought has helped. His contribution to our particular situation is that he's the type of person that you do what you are supposed to do - life is very black&white - he's a father, that means he does the parenting the thing to his best ability.

And then, a lot of it is our situation. I'm a less confident person than he is and second guess myself. He reminds me that we've read stuff, and looked into things, and that it's not rocket science. He's had to be there for me at times b/c I am high strung and tend to need his help. And I think that's a good thing in our particular situation b/c he'd never been around kids before we had Jackson and I had. So it would have been easy to defer to me all the time, but b/c I am high strung and easily riled about things, he had to step in and figure things out, or support me, or whatever. Then when Jackson was a year old, I had to finish law school, which meant my hours were not 8-5 but his were. So he had to fend for himself with Jackson about 3-4x per week. Obviously that helped him be more at ease and confident in his parenting abilities.

I also think it's not about things being 50/50, it's about people working to their strengths and figuring out a balancing act that works for both parents. I've always tried to avoid keeping a tally of what I do and what he does, and let us both do what we do best.

[Deleted]

Jun 25, 2012 8:58:11 GMT -5 ESF said:

I think a lot of entertainment/movies/tv shows etc only add to this idea. Dads are constantly portrayed as bumbling idiots who put furniture polish in the dishwasher, diaper the baby's head, and send little Jenny to school in her pajamas and a lunch box full of fruit loops and pickles. Dumb people set the bar there. So when the father actually gives the child a peanut butter sandwich and an apple for lunch, dumb people think he should get a Nobel prize.

H and I were talking about this the other day. He was flipping through the channels and came across Mr. Mom. He was commenting that the movie was funny but so sexist. I said I was willing to forgive Mr. Mom because of the time. It came out in 1983.

It's the fact that this theme STILL crops up throughout entertainment that really chaps my ass. Eddie Murphy did Daddy Day Care only a few years ago. So ridiculous.

[emmybean]

Jun 25, 2012 9:25:46 GMT -5 ering1115 said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:22:33 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Why are you caring for your husbands family in the first place? This isnt about being a damsel in distress, it's about not being a doormat.

Not a doormat- there are some situations where family members need help and you help them out. We come from huge extended families and that is just what you do.

So again, pretending to be helpless is better than saying no, or telling your MIL where to stick it when she starts in on this babysitting bullshit, how exactly?

I honestly don't get what you are saying here. You help your family out of obligation, and now feel at tho they see you as too capable? They aren't willing to help you in return and that makes you mad? That isn't your issue, that's theirs and it's easily solved by standing up for yourself, not pretending to be someone you aren't.

[heightsyankee]

Yet again, I have not thoroughly read all the comments, but feel the need to add my 2cents anyway...

I think the one part of the article that made sense was this:

As one dad told us, “I'd rate myself as a good, but imperfect parent. My spouse would probably see me as an OK parent, and stress the imperfection more.”

We know from this very message board how women can ride the smallest thing right in to the ground (hello, fruit vs veggie!). I do think women are very "Oh, you can't do it. I'll just do it myself" as a general way of dealing with mothering. Many women hold their ability to parent as something holy.

I disagree that a mother should ever play "damsel in distress" but I do think we should just walk away and let the men take part with little to no comment and then, when they do help, not praise but say "Thank you." Of course, I also believe that men should take the time on a very regular basis to say "Thanks for mothering my children." My husband does and it means the world to me, so I am happy to give him some thanks back and I do think that goes a long way. But no, I'm not going to praise him because he can actually step up and be a parent.

[ering1115]

Jun 25, 2012 9:32:08 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:25:46 GMT -5 ering1115 said:

Not a doormat- there are some situations where family members need help and you help them out. We come from huge extended families and that is just what you do.

So again, pretending to be helpless is better than saying no, or telling your MIL where to stick it when she starts in on this babysitting bullshit, how exactly?

I honestly don't get what you are saying here. You help your family out of obligation, and now feel at tho they see you as too capable? They aren't willing to help you in return and that makes you mad? That isn't your issue, that's theirs and it's easily solved by standing up for yourself, not pretending to be someone you aren't.

I appreciate the advice. The situation is difficult to explain in less than 50 pages. I do stand up for myself, but I choose not to tell DH's gmom where to stick it at a family party. There is a level of deference to her being his gmom and decorum expected at family functions that this would violate. DH and I are on the same page so I don't worry about it.

It is tough to be the ones people rely on and then ask for help. They don't understand how you could possibly need it when you can seemingly do it all for yourself and them on a regular basis. I had a rough weekend and that is where a lot of this is coming from.

[eclaires]

Jun 25, 2012 9:33:29 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Yet again, I have not thoroughly read all the comments, but feel the need to add my 2cents anyway...

I think the one part of the article that made sense was this:

As one dad told us, “I'd rate myself as a good, but imperfect parent. My spouse would probably see me as an OK parent, and stress the imperfection more.”

We know from this very message board how women can ride the smallest thing right in to the ground (hello, fruit vs veggie!). I do think women are very "Oh, you can't do it. I'll just do it myself" as a general way of dealing with mothering. Many women hold their ability to parent as something holy.

I disagree that a mother should ever play "damsel in distress" but I do think we should just walk away and let the men take part with little to no comment and then, when they do help, not praise but say "Thank you." Of course, I also believe that men should take the time on a very regular basis to say "Thanks for mothering my children." My husband does and it means the world to me, so I am happy to give him some thanks back and I do think that goes a long way. But no, I'm not going to praise him because he can actually step up and be a parent.

YES.

MH and I both feel appreciated by the other and appreciate the other's strengths as a parent and it makes all.the.difference.

And sometimes, when he notices something that I think would never be on is radar and he comments and appreciates it, OMG...it makes my life. Earlier this year, he thanked me and said something about how he loves that I do cheesy, fun stuff for holidays for the kids b/c it's so the opposite of how he is and how he was raised. I cried. And it's stupid, b/c I expect him to appreciate the day to day stuff I do b/c that's how he is. He's logical, rational, unemotional...but when he told me he appreciated that and took the time to comment on it... well, I obviously haven't forgotten.

[pescalita]

That's right, eclaires, I forgot I married your husband.

It's interesting I think to have such an equal marriage that still does follow traditional gender roles. He drives the car and kills the spiders, but he also takes A to more dr appts than I do.

I saw someone say recently that the difference between a new mom and a new dad is the mom doesn't have someone over her shoulder judging every move.

[mabillon]

This is interesting and very timely. Generally, my husband has been a great dad and an excellent partner in child-rearing. However, in the last two weeks we've switched over to using the cloth diapers that he was TOTALLY ON BOARD WITH while I was pregnant but is now skeevish about changing. He made some comment over the weekend (after I reminded him for the millionth time to pull the insert out before dropping it into the wet bag cause I didn't want to reach in and do it later) about how "there are lots of dads who never even change diapers".

I give him one hard look and he just turned around and took out the insert. However, he's ex-military and keeps the house far neater than I do so he does get plenty else done!

Those who've mentioned that their H's are SAHDs, do you find they pull the full weight (in terms of baby development) you would if you were a SAHM? My H wants to SAH and I love the idea (if I get promoted and we could afford it) but I'm mostly worried that he would've leave the house for enough socialization with the baby. All of the baby stuff I go to these days are definitely mommy-geared.

[summer]

Jun 25, 2012 9:32:08 GMT -5 emmybean said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:25:46 GMT -5 ering1115 said:

Not a doormat- there are some situations where family members need help and you help them out. We come from huge extended families and that is just what you do.

So again, pretending to be helpless is better than saying no, or telling your MIL where to stick it when she starts in on this babysitting bullshit, how exactly?

I honestly don't get what you are saying here. You help your family out of obligation, and now feel at tho they see you as too capable? They aren't willing to help you in return and that makes you mad? That isn't your issue, that's theirs and it's easily solved by standing up for yourself, not pretending to be someone you aren't.

Harsh, no? Things aren't always so easily solved in everyone else's families. I'm sure we don't have her whole life story in 3 posts.

[emmybean]

Jun 25, 2012 9:36:59 GMT -5 ering1115 said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:32:08 GMT -5 emmybean said:

So again, pretending to be helpless is better than saying no, or telling your MIL where to stick it when she starts in on this babysitting bullshit, how exactly?

I honestly don't get what you are saying here. You help your family out of obligation, and now feel at tho they see you as too capable? They aren't willing to help you in return and that makes you mad? That isn't your issue, that's theirs and it's easily solved by standing up for yourself, not pretending to be someone you aren't.

I appreciate the advice. The situation is difficult to explain in less than 50 pages. I do stand up for myself, but I choose not to tell DH's gmom where to stick it at a family party. There is a level of deference to her being his gmom and decorum expected at family functions that this would violate. DH and I are on the same page so I don't worry about it.

It is tough to be the ones people rely on and then ask for help. They don't understand how you could possibly need it when you can seemingly do it all for yourself and them on a regular basis. I had a rough weekend and that is where a lot of this is coming from.

So yeah. I'm still not understanding where this translates to suggesting women should play games with their husbands immediately pp.

I am sorry your h's family takes advantage of you. And the babysitting comments always piss me off. But that doesn't translate well to giving such sweepingly horrible advice.

[eclaires]

Jun 25, 2012 10:21:02 GMT -5 pescalita said:

That's right, eclaires, I forgot I married your husband.

It's interesting I think to have such an equal marriage that still does follow traditional gender roles. He drives the car and kills the spiders, but he also takes A to more dr appts than I do.

I saw someone say recently that the difference between a new mom and a new dad is the mom doesn't have someone over her shoulder judging every move.

And what good husbands they are.

We also have a really equal marriage that tends to follow traditional gender roles for the most part, but MH does do a lot of the cooking - b/c he's better at it. Plus, we just got a smoker, and who doesn't enjoy delicious smoked meats?

[2curlydogs]

Jun 25, 2012 9:41:42 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Jun 25, 2012 9:33:29 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Of course, I also believe that men should take the time on a very regular basis to say "Thanks for mothering my children." My husband does and it means the world to me, so I am happy to give him some thanks back and I do think that goes a long way. But no, I'm not going to praise him because he can actually step up and be a parent.

YES.

MH and I both feel appreciated by the other and appreciate the other's strengths as a parent and it makes all.the.difference.

I'm going to go sit over in this corner.

[2curlydogs]

Also, gbck! How in the damn hell are you? How's Buffy? And Le Doof Kitton?

[starlily]

Jun 25, 2012 7:56:09 GMT -5 ECB said:

gbck - I get what you're saying. Men shouldn't expect to be applauded for doing the basic stuff that ANY PARENT should be able to do for their own child. But at the same time, the mom's need to step back and LET the dad be the dad w/o correcting him and, as you said, undermine him.

I agree with this. Let's recall the crazy bumpie who was furious her husband fed their baby all veggies, them fruit rather than her half-and-half method.

[gbck]

Jun 25, 2012 11:00:28 GMT -5 2curlydogs said:

Also, gbck! How in the damn hell are you? How's Buffy? And Le Doof Kitton?

We are excellent!

Buffy is almost 2, holy toledo!.
And LDK slept on my pillow most of last night, being his normal PITA self

[KateAggie]

I've never understood why people are so stingy with thank yous. I thank my DH for all sorts of shit I don't have to, and he does the same. We also don't ridicule each other when we do things differently. Lack of balance in duties as parents rarely comes from people being too giving of praise and appreciation.

[mexicali]

I'll admit, when I see a dad doing a good job it makes me smile. But I gew up in world where broken homes are common. So it makes me feel all warm inside when I see a man standing up to his fatherly duties.

As for my H, he is an amazing father and is equal to me on every level he could possibly be. We work the same hours and even carpool. Even then Z picks me over him for everything. If he disciplines him, he gets so mad at H. If I discipline him he is better. We stick to the same methods. If he hurts himself he comes to me to kiss it. H could be holding him and he insists on his mother. H has told me it stings a lot when he does that. I couldn't imagine giving my 100% to a child, what H does, and only get 75% in return. I know one day the tables will turn and Z will need his dad more than his mom. For now I know it's hard for H.

Oh and I hate the term babysitting when referring to a parent. Parents don't babysit their kids. My husband is just a good as a parent as I am. I would have no issues picking up and leaving for weeks, except for the missing them part, knowing my H could handle it.

[Deleted]

""Mothers are more confident in that role; the pat on the back isn't what they're looking for," Sophy said. "Dads need the reassurance. So you say, 'Great job changing that diaper,' and I know moms are like, 'Are you kidding me, what do want, applause?' But if you want him to change four more diapers, you better applaud at some level.""

FUCK.THAT.NOISE.

my husband does at least half of the parenting and half of the house mangement stuff. he'd be INSULTED if i pulled nonsense like that. there's a vast ocean of difference between "honey, i really appreciate how you took care of the kid most of the day saturday because i unexpectedly had to work" and "yay! husband! you fed our kid a balanced meal! yippee skippee!"

verdict: any man who needs praise like that to function as a parent probably can't find his own asshole.

[ttt]

I also really resent the whole "if you don't praise your husband enough, he'll just stop taking care of your kids and then you'll have to do it ALL yourself!"

[cookiemdough]

Jun 25, 2012 12:13:00 GMT -5 KateAggie said:

I've never understood why people are so stingy with thank yous. I thank my DH for all sorts of shit I don't have to, and he does the same. We also don't ridicule each other when we do things differently. Lack of balance in duties as parents rarely comes from people being too giving of praise and appreciation.

I guess I kind of look at it the same as the "everyone is a winner" phenomenon we have with kids now where we praise 15th place. At some point how does one know to strive for more, when they are getting the praise as if they were already doing that stuff?

In general I think it is a fine line. I definitely thank my husband or praise him for more than I get in return. He is actually very involved though and I do think he is a great dad so I don't resent it. However, I know there is part of him who thinks he is the exception rather than the norm because he sees many of the men in his family who aren't contributing as much and mentions it. Now that part I do find annoying. Usually when he does that I just remind him that part of the reason the relationship he has with our son is so great is because he is so involved.

[Deleted]

Jun 25, 2012 12:13:00 GMT -5 KateAggie said:

I've never understood why people are so stingy with thank yous. I thank my DH for all sorts of shit I don't have to, and he does the same. We also don't ridicule each other when we do things differently. Lack of balance in duties as parents rarely comes from people being too giving of praise and appreciation.

I agree, but at least from what I've observed on the boards and IRL, it seems that for a lot of people, the unnecessary thank-yous only run one way.

H and I thank each other for little shit all the time. I've also told him that I actually need to hear it. If he doesn't tell me that what I cooked was good, I start to freak out that he hates it. I make breakfast almost every morning, and almost every morning, he tells me that breakfast is delicious and he thanks me for making it. When I come home, I thank him for doing the dishes and cooking dinner.

I think the issue isn't too much thanking or praise. The problem arises when there's an imbalance - when dad expects a cookie for changing one diaper but doesn't understand why mom maybe needs a break after spending all day with the kid.

[heightsyankee]

Jun 25, 2012 10:21:02 GMT -5 pescalita said:

I saw someone say recently that the difference between a new mom and a new dad is the mom doesn't have someone over her shoulder judging every move.

That was me. This was advice given to me when I was bitching about the way DH was giving the baby a bath. My friend, a mother of 3 who were MS or older at that point, basically looked me in the eye and said that and it immediately sunk deeeeep down. It was the best advice I was ever given and is the reason why when I go on my annual girls' trip, I am the only one who doesn;t have to leave my husband as much as a note about what to do for the boys. I should really send that friend some flowers...

[pescalita]

Jun 25, 2012 12:33:17 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Jun 25, 2012 12:13:00 GMT -5 KateAggie said:

I've never understood why people are so stingy with thank yous. I thank my DH for all sorts of shit I don't have to, and he does the same. We also don't ridicule each other when we do things differently. Lack of balance in duties as parents rarely comes from people being too giving of praise and appreciation.

I guess I kind of look at it the same as the "everyone is a winner" phenomenon we have with kids now where we praise 15th place. At some point how does one know to strive for more, when they are getting the praise as if they were already doing that stuff?

I get this, but I also think adults can make the distinction better than developing kids.

I'm better at quickly cleaning up the kitchen than MrP, so he'll often say "thanks for being a rock star" when I do it. I know that filling up the dishwasher doesn't actually make me Mick Jagger, but it's nice to know that he noticed.

[heightsyankee]

Jun 25, 2012 13:09:19 GMT -5 pescalita said:

Jun 25, 2012 12:33:17 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

I guess I kind of look at it the same as the "everyone is a winner" phenomenon we have with kids now where we praise 15th place. At some point how does one know to strive for more, when they are getting the praise as if they were already doing that stuff?

I get this, but I also think adults can make the distinction better than developing kids.

I'm better at quickly cleaning up the kitchen than MrP, so he'll often say "thanks for being a rock star" when I do it. I know that filling up the dishwasher doesn't actually make me Mick Jagger, but it's nice to know that he noticed.

:Y: :Y: