Interesting considering the recent Can Women Still Have It All article in The Atlantic hoopla.
And, sorry, I read this and still rolled my eyes. I know some people's husbands are the second coming of Jesus as parents, but mine isn't. He's definitely getting better but he was a hot mess when DD was smaller. He was definitely the second-string/pinch hitter type parent, but always wanted primary parent accolades for the tiniest thing. Sorry, but no. That may be what your male ego needs, but still no. But that's just my life. I know we all have different experiences with this.
Just a little appreciation, it turns out. TODAY Moms teamed up with Parenting.com to survey more than 4,000 parents on the real role of the modern father.
Dads think they're working harder than ever on the home front, sharing half the child-care duties and generally pulling their weight.
Moms beg to differ.
Some key findings from the 1,500 dads and 2,700 moms who took our online survey:
Half of dads think they split child care evenly with their partner; 75 percent of moms say they do most of the child care. (Probably related: Women are about twice as likely to say they wish they could trade roles with their partner.) Nearly all moms – 95 percent – say they’re the default “go-to” parent that the kids come running to. But more than a third of dads say no, that’s their role. Among those dads who acknowledge that mom is the go-to parent, nearly a third say it hurts their feeling to play second fiddle. Dads crave recognition: Nearly two-thirds say what they want most from their partner is just some verbal acknowledgment, a "good job" now and then. Meanwhile, 60 percent of moms say, save the verbal pat on the back: They'd rather their partner do something special for them or give them time off from the kids.
As one dad told us, “I'd rate myself as a good, but imperfect parent. My spouse would probably see me as an OK parent, and stress the imperfection more.”
Related: Newsflash! Dads have feelings, too
Brett Deering for msnbc.com
Dustin Baylor and family: As a doctor and devoted dad, Baylor says, "I often feel overwhelmed trying to do it all."
What moms don't understand, says Dr. Charles Sophy, a child and adult psychiatrist and director of the L.A. Department of Children and Family Services, is that dads need to hear praise for their child-care efforts – even if the notion sets moms' eyes rolling.
"Mothers are more confident in that role; the pat on the back isn't what they're looking for," Sophy said. "Dads need the reassurance. So you say, 'Great job changing that diaper,' and I know moms are like, 'Are you kidding me, what do want, applause?' But if you want him to change four more diapers, you better applaud at some level."
Trying, and failing, to live up to moms' demands can be "deflating," says Brock Griffin, a spokesperson for the National Center for Fathering. Still, those high expectations represent a type of progress.
"Previous generations of dads were expected to do very little," Griffin said. "So it's progress that dads are expected to do more now. The question is, how much is enough?"
Related story: These days, dads struggle to do it all
Indeed, modern families are often forging new ground when it comes to roles and responsibilities. Dads may not be able to look to their own fathers for a model of how to balance work and home life. Three-quarters say they're more involved with the kids than their own fathers were.
Many moms wrote in to say they appreciate all the things their husbands do, but... there's usually a "but."
One mom wrote:
"He does help when it comes to bathtime which is not my favorite thing to do, and helps with the trash and cleaning the toilets. But again, I don't think that a lot of dads realize how much moms do. It took me having surgery and him having to take care of everything to fully grasp what all I do during the concern of 24 hours."
Another told us:
"He has sacrificed work advancement to spend more time with our son, and our son is his priority. He picks up and drops off from daycare. However, once we're all home, I still end up handling all of his meals, clean up and bedtime prep, which is a lot in the evenings."
So, moms feel overworked and underappreciated, dads feel overworked and underappreciated... are we all just doomed to feel stressed and resentful until the kids leave for college?
Resentment is the No. 1 silent marriage killer, said Hal Runkel, author of "Screamfree Parenting" and "Screamfree Marriage." And the expectation gap between dads and moms is a prime opportunity for resentment to build up – but only if we let it. The solution is honest communication, Runkel said, even if the words are difficult to say or hear.
"First of all, recognize the resentment," Runkel said. "I have an uncomfortable conversation with my wife at least once a day. We've been married 19 years, and we are not scared of conflict. We are definitely afraid of resentment."
Better to get it out in the open, Runkel said. Besides, he noted, when his wife confronts him about some resentment, "it's not like she's such a good actress that she's been able to hide it." Talking it out, he said, "is the only path forward."
Of course, dads may have resentment of their own, especially when their child-care efforts are rebuffed because they don't do things "right" - i.e., mom's way. Griffin said mothers should focus on fathers' good-faith effort – even, or especially, when dads do things differently.
"Show appreciation for your spouse, look for the positives," Griffin said. "Moms and dads do things differently, and kids need both sides. As long as the kid isn't actually in danger, give him the space to do it his way."
So even if you think his bedtime stories are way too scary, he uses 20 wipes to change a diaper, or his idea of dressing your daughters involves orange plaid and purple polka dots, give up the mom perfectionism and let dad find his own parenting style.
And we'd all do well to remember what one dad said in our survey – this parenting business is hard on everyone, mom or dad, so we should all give each other (and ourselves) some slack:
"I have struggled and while I love my kids dearly, they have each pushed me beyond any objectively reasonable limit at various points throughout their respective childhoods. Yes, they are growing and testing but I have been pushed to the edge so many times. I mean sometimes I have felt like you need to have the patience of Gandhi to survive the process.
The comments section is pretty interesting. Many of the single dads are rolling their eyes at this article insinuation that they need "a pat on the back".
And it, like every comment section, is mostly just sad commentary on the the state of humanity. That's why I can't quit you all.
My husband stays at home, so he is the one that our daughter goes running to. It actually stings a little bit because she was with me for three straight years and hasn't even been at home with him for a complete year. I get over it, though, because he is really a great dad.
But yeah. He gets really annoyed when he's out in public and people act like it's this amazing feat that he can manage to do 'a woman's job.' He doesn't want a pat on the back for what he does. He wants what any sane person who stays at home 24/7 wants - time to himself. He wants moms to act normal around him at the park.
Men slack off because they are expected to by society and often by their spouses. If I was married to someone who didn't want to pull his weight with our kid, I'd be livid. I certainly wouldn't be praising him for the tiniest little matter.
Is part of the problem that some moms who feel resentful toward dads who don't pull their weight may not actually be telling the dads what they need from them? I feel like sometimes, women expect their husbands to read their minds (yes, I am guilty of this too). So when dads aren't hearing this kind of stuff from moms, they assume they're pulling their weight.
My H has been an amazing dad from the second he met DD and since he now stays home her, he is the primary parent. And they have a wonderful bond. But when I come home, it's 100% me and G time. And keeping the house and laundry in ship shape? Also mostly me. And I do feel resentful that so much burden is on my shoulders. I have no free time as a working mom. I'm always on. It's my number one complaint about this whole situation. Whereas after dinner (he makes it) he pretty much gets the night to do whatever he wants.
I think it's as simple as some men are lazy and some aren't. And there is some level of miscommunication in there possibly as well.
In my case, my H is a workaholic. He started to prioritize work over family around the time I got pregnant. There is no miscommunication between us. He is well aware that he falls short in that area.
But it's not the same for everyone. I just know in my case I'm not going to pat him on the back for doing stuff he should be doing, like not using the blackberry at the table during meals together that we only have on weekends if we're lucky, or for taking DD swimming every Saturday. That is encompassed in the bare expected minimum and I'm not pulling out party hats for that.
My H has been an amazing dad from the second he met DD and since he now stays home her, he is the primary parent. And they have a wonderful bond. But when I come home, it's 100% me and G time. And keeping the house and laundry in ship shape? Also mostly me. And I do feel resentful that so much burden is on my shoulders. I have no free time as a working mom. I'm always on. It's my number one complaint about this whole situation. Whereas after dinner (he makes it) he pretty much gets the night to do whatever he wants.
This is why I've been only doing part-time work or working from home. With his hours one of us has to do all the other stuff and that person is me. I'm super resentful of it.
I just know in my case I'm not going to pat him on the back for doing stuff he should be doing, like not using the blackberry at the table during meals together that we only have on weekends if we're lucky, or for taking DD swimming every Saturday. That is encompassed in the bare expected minimum and I'm not pulling out party hats for that.
Clearly there are a million stories/variations of the issue, but to this... I'd almost bet you that it's the dads who do the bare minimum are the ones saying "thank me!!!!". Where as the dads who really do step up and who really do take on their fair share and would do more - they are the ones who do it because thats, well, what you do as a father. And they don't expect/"need" anything past that.
Or, if you thank them, they are just as quick to thank you for what you do too.
I DO see a lot of the "oh, daddy is 'helping'" BS on the interwebz.
I mean, if I come home, see what my kid has been doing w/ the Mr. all day, and swoop in to change it to 'my' parenting style, that undermines his. And I see that constantly. As often as there are "it's called parenting, not 'babysitting'" posts, there are "*tee hee hee*, silly man, he can't do anything parenting right" posts.
I'm not saying that well or right, but...I don't need to tell the Mr. how awesome he is at parenting 24-7, but I also don't need to mock him for the outfits he puts Buffy in or because he doesn't like using cloth diapers. And I"m still not articulating it well. I'll try after I shake out the caffine today.
My H has been an amazing dad from the second he met DD and since he now stays home her, he is the primary parent. And they have a wonderful bond. But when I come home, it's 100% me and G time. And keeping the house and laundry in ship shape? Also mostly me. And I do feel resentful that so much burden is on my shoulders. I have no free time as a working mom. I'm always on. It's my number one complaint about this whole situation. Whereas after dinner (he makes it) he pretty much gets the night to do whatever he wants.
This is why I've been only doing part-time work or working from home. With his hours one of us has to do all the other stuff and that person is me. I'm super resentful of it.
That's also me. I'm working part time, yet I'm probably respsonsiblw for 80% of childcare and 80% of household stuff. Yesterday Dh was hungover and got pissy when I gave him a list of cleaning to do and then handed him the baby when he sat down. I was like, that is exactly what I have to Do, idiot!
I also resent him for taking a day off work last week to golf instead of hanging with us.
gbck - I get what you're saying. Men shouldn't expect to be applauded for doing the basic stuff that ANY PARENT should be able to do for their own child. But at the same time, the mom's need to step back and LET the dad be the dad w/o correcting him and, as you said, undermine him.
Post by decemberwedding07 on Jun 25, 2012 8:00:31 GMT -5
"So you say, 'Great job changing that diaper,' and I know moms are like, 'Are you kidding me, what do want, applause?' But if you want him to change four more diapers, you better applaud at some level."
But see, this is bullshit. And I'm sorry, but I think that part of the reason that so many dads want over the top levels of praise for doing so much less than their wives is that it makes them feel better about the amount of work they're doing. Wouldn't you be much more likely to think, "Hey, I guess I AM doing my fair share. I mean, look at how much she's praising me!" This is my sister's husband to a t. He says that she does nothing all day as the stay at home mother of a 19 month old, but if she leaves him alone with the 19 month old for longer than 2 hours, he flips out. He says that it's easy for her because she knows what to do. ::Major eye roll:: He totally wants praise for every little thing, and I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.
Now, if a dad praises his wife in the way that this article suggests a woman praise a dad, that's a different story entirely.
Honestly, the fact that so many of the dads surveyed think that they're doing 50% of the child rearing pisses me off, because I absolutely know that it isn't true. IME the dads who actually do 50% of the work are the exception, rather than a the rule, and the dads who are the primary care givers (like SAH dads) are extremely rare. No, changing a diaper, or even changing all the diapers isn't 50% of the work involved in raising a child. Not even close.
It's like Chris Rock said- you shouldn't expect awards for something you're supposed to do. You're supposed to take care of your kids! (paraphrased and slightly out of context)
My DH has quoted that quote a million times! Oh, when K-fed was being applauded for being a "great dad" fo rmaking his kid a PB&J, DH quoted that and then said "now, if you hire Tiger Woods (pre-scandal) to teach your kid to play golf, THAT might make you a great dad!". LOL.
gbck - I get what you're saying. Men shouldn't expect to be applauded for doing the basic stuff that ANY PARENT should be able to do for their own child. But at the same time, the mom's need to step back and LET the dad be the dad w/o correcting him and, as you said, undermine him.
Yes. And there is the fact that, the Mr. is home w/ buffy today. If he goes to Meijer for groceries and she throws a fit (which she's likely to do--we're at that stage) he'll get lots of "oooh, poor guy. Here, here's a cookie for the kid and, why don't you go to the front of the line". While I will get "mom who can't do her job" attitude.
Which sucks and is stupid and misogynistic and bad stereotyping...but it's not his fault. So there's no point in yelling at him for it.
I'll get home today and the cloth diapers *I* used this weekend will be done being washed (but not put away because that's my job) and the house will be as clean or cleaner than it was this morning. He and Buffy will have had fun and she'll be wearing an eye-hurting outfit and stupid shoes...and none of that is 'wrong', it's just not what I would have done w/ her all day.
So I'm not going to go home and tell him how awesome he is for being home with her today, any more than he came home from work and told me how awesome I was with her yesterday. But I'm also not going to go home and roll my eyes at him for not being me. (and Buffy is better off having 2 different parents, not 2 me's)
gbck - I get what you're saying. Men shouldn't expect to be applauded for doing the basic stuff that ANY PARENT should be able to do for their own child. But at the same time, the mom's need to step back and LET the dad be the dad w/o correcting him and, as you said, undermine him.
I think these are two different kinds of people. My H is great with DD when he's there with her and present, but his mind is running a million miles a second on what the next deal he's developing at work most of the time. It is clear when I come home from somewhere that my H is relieved because now he can go onto whatever other thing he wanted to be doing and just "check in" now and then while I do the other stuff.
Or on the weekends when he lets me sleep in, it is really just putting DD in front of the TV and him continuing to sleep on the couch next to her. By the time I get up she hasn't been dressed, hasn't eaten, hasn't had a drink of water, a comb run through her hair, nothing...... and in those cases, yeah, I feel like swooping in because what he has been doing up until then was babysitting, not parenting.
But I'm also not going to go home and roll my eyes at him for not being me. (and Buffy is better off having 2 different parents, not 2 me's)
To add another layer - I have friends where the dad is an easy going guy, and WANTS to be an involved dad.
But his wife.... if he hasn't read a book about "XYZ", then he can't really know how to do XYZ and she gets pissy at him for doing things differently than her and the amount of eye rolling I see come from HER.... it's painful.
He WANTS to be involved and really enjoy his kid, but she seriously won't let him. Then gets pissed when he isn't more involved....
Um, well, when you yell at him everytime he tries to do anything w/ his DD - it's a bit of a deterant.
I agree with marie above in the aspect that women, even those of us who roll our eyes at this concept, want and hope our man to be able to telepathically sense our rising frustration at doing too much sometimes.
As far as the pat on the back for the dads... I find my DH seems to appreciate breaks out with his dudes, or just himself, more than "Hey there, buckaroo, bang up job on that bathtime!" Which is what he got for Father's Day this year, and he has yet to stop talking about it.
::shrugs:: I don't think can possibly break down to be as formulaic as the article would attempt to make it.
DH and I don't have kids, but with household duties, I definitely have realized some things--mainly It's best to thank for everything-this is true with employees and husbands and I would assume children. Sometimes it's unnecessary, but it never makes people as mad as not recognizing things they felt were out of the way. Admittedly I am a perfectionist and tend to find the vast majority of the world lazy. Since people don't have my standards, it's good to be liberal with complements. It also tends to make me less cranky and resentful when I give complements which is of course good.
But I'm also not going to go home and roll my eyes at him for not being me. (and Buffy is better off having 2 different parents, not 2 me's)
To add another layer - I have friends where the dad is an easy going guy, and WANTS to be an involved dad.
But his wife.... if he hasn't read a book about "XYZ", then he can't really know how to do XYZ and she gets pissy at him for doing things differently than her and the amount of eye rolling I see come from HER.... it's painful.
He WANTS to be involved and really enjoy his kid, but she seriously won't let him. Then gets pissed when he isn't more involved....
Um, well, when you yell at him everytime he tries to do anything w/ his DD - it's a bit of a deterant.
Not that this is a shock to you but... I am the easygoing parent who gets crap done while parenting. Which colors this a lot for us
(that and the Mr. works weekends and has Mon and Tues off w/ Buffy--he spends almost many waking hours per week with her as I do)
It's best to thank for everything-this is true with employees and husbands and I would assume children. Sometimes it's unnecessary, but it never makes people as mad as not recognizing things they felt were out of the way.
I agree w/ this, but it needs to be a 2 way street. The article is saying women "don't want" praise, but I think if it's a natural part of your marriage and it goes both ways, yes, women do want it too.
DH and I have been together over 20 years and we still thank one another for doing the dishes, mowing the grass, or getting up early w/ DS so that the other one can stay in bed.
I thank DH all the time, but he thanks me too. We both feel appreciated.
I dunno. I see an awful lot of bumpies who do everything with the kids, yell at DH when he does help because he's "doing it wrong," and then get all martyr-like when DH doesn't help. In those cases I don't blame DH for staying on the sidelines.
I got lucky. I also don't yell at DH for feeding the kids fruit instead of veggies. If they ate at all, I'm happy.
Post by EloiseWeenie on Jun 25, 2012 8:18:54 GMT -5
My husband is a very hands on dad. At nights and on weekends, our 3 year old wants nothing to do with me, my husband has to help him with everything. He's a really kind and thoughtful guy, that went into parenthood knowing (and wanting) that he'll have to sacrifice some of his own wants and needs. I honestly do appreciate all of his help (he does a lot) and I thank him for what he does. I have never said "good job" on a diaper change, but I do thank him for doing those little things. He also thanks me when I do them. It makes me feel appreciated for being the SAHM when he thanks me, just like it makes him feel appreciated as a dad when I thank him. We are also in the habit of saying please/thank you, because we're teaching our son how important manners are. I affirm him because I truly do appreciate him and all he does.
gbck - I get what you're saying. Men shouldn't expect to be applauded for doing the basic stuff that ANY PARENT should be able to do for their own child. But at the same time, the mom's need to step back and LET the dad be the dad w/o correcting him and, as you said, undermine him.
I think these are two different kinds of people. My H is great with DD when he's there with her and present, but his mind is running a million miles a second on what the next deal he's developing at work most of the time. It is clear when I come home from somewhere that my H is relieved because now he can go onto whatever other thing he wanted to be doing and just "check in" now and then while I do the other stuff.
Or on the weekends when he lets me sleep in, it is really just putting DD in front of the TV and him continuing to sleep on the couch next to her. By the time I get up she hasn't been dressed, hasn't eaten, hasn't had a drink of water, a comb run through her hair, nothing...... and in those cases, yeah, I feel like swooping in because what he has been doing up until then was babysitting, not parenting.
I think summer and I married the same man. I get frustrated and we had a CTJ this weekend about how I need time to myself and how that time for me needs to be free of worry about what I will walk in to when I get home. It might have resonated this time, we shall see.
I dunno. I see an awful lot of bumpies who do everything with the kids, yell at DH when he does help because he's "doing it wrong," and then get all martyr-like when DH doesn't help. In those cases I don't blame DH for staying on the sidelines.
I got lucky. I also don't yell at DH for feeding the kids fruit instead of veggies. If they ate at all, I'm happy.
I agree with this and I am sure that in the early days, I have been guilty of being over critical at times, possibly fueled by sleep deprivation and PPD. But, I will be damned if I am going to kiss my husband's ass just for basic parenting and my husband would think I was a nut if I thanked him for merely caring for our son.
Honestly, the fact that so many of the dads surveyed think that they're doing 50% of the child rearing pisses me off, because I absolutely know that it isn't true. IME the dads who actually do 50% of the work are the exception, rather than a the rule, and the dads who are the primary care givers (like SAH dads) are extremely rare. No, changing a diaper, or even changing all the diapers isn't 50% of the work involved in raising a child. Not even close.
I totally see how this happens though.
My H was on paternity leave for 3 months after DD was born. If I didn't have the work emails and work log to prove otherwise he would swear on a stack of bibles that he spent 90% of that time with us, when in actuality it was more like 20%.
But he wasn't meaning to lie, he REALLY thought that was the case until I had to show hard evidence to the contrary lest I think myself to be delusional.
"So you say, 'Great job changing that diaper,' and I know moms are like, 'Are you kidding me, what do want, applause?' But if you want him to change four more diapers, you better applaud at some level."
But see, this is bullshit. And I'm sorry, but I think that part of the reason that so many dads want over the top levels of praise for doing so much less than their wives is that it makes them feel better about the amount of work they're doing. Wouldn't you be much more likely to think, "Hey, I guess I AM doing my fair share. I mean, look at how much she's praising me!" This is my sister's husband to a t. He says that she does nothing all day as the stay at home mother of a 19 month old, but if she leaves him alone with the 19 month old for longer than 2 hours, he flips out. He says that it's easy for her because she knows what to do. ::Major eye roll:: He totally wants praise for every little thing, and I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.
Now, if a dad praises his wife in the way that this article suggests a woman praise a dad, that's a different story entirely.
Honestly, the fact that so many of the dads surveyed think that they're doing 50% of the child rearing pisses me off, because I absolutely know that it isn't true. IME the dads who actually do 50% of the work are the exception, rather than a the rule, and the dads who are the primary care givers (like SAH dads) are extremely rare. No, changing a diaper, or even changing all the diapers isn't 50% of the work involved in raising a child. Not even close.
I totally agree with this. I'm SO over the "OMG he changed a diaper, he's SUCH an amazing dad!" crap. And I totally agree that men in general think they're doing way more than they actually do.
It's like Chris Rock said- you shouldn't expect awards for something you're supposed to do. You're supposed to take care of your kids! (paraphrased and slightly out of context)
I think it's: "Those guys that say, 'I take care of my kids.' You are supposed to take care of your kids! What do you want, a fucking cookie?"
So true.
I think a lot of entertainment/movies/tv shows etc only add to this idea. Dads are constantly portrayed as bumbling idiots who put furniture polish in the dishwasher, diaper the baby's head, and send little Jenny to school in her pajamas and a lunch box full of fruit loops and pickles. Dumb people set the bar there. So when the father actually gives the child a peanut butter sandwich and an apple for lunch, dumb people think he should get a Nobel prize.
To add my biggest personal pet peeve to this discussion....
I am going to Eastern Europe for a week in August without the boys. It is a working vacation for a volunteer group I am heavily involved in, benefits me personally too. DH tells his gmom who says "Well, who will watch DS? Nevermind, he's in (rude tone of voice here) daycare". Then the woman says "That is going to be rough on you babysitting for the week".
Mind you I was less than 7 feet away and she refuses to look at or speak to me and I seriously almost lost my poop. Dear goodness! Babysitting! Gone for a week! Woman, he leaves me for days at a time on the regular and no one is there to pat my back or lend a freaking hand.
My advice to new moms, play damsel in distress now or you will foever be expected to manage everything on your own. There is such a thing as being too competent when it comes to getting help when you need it, unfortunately.
I just know in my case I'm not going to pat him on the back for doing stuff he should be doing, like not using the blackberry at the table during meals together that we only have on weekends if we're lucky, or for taking DD swimming every Saturday. That is encompassed in the bare expected minimum and I'm not pulling out party hats for that.
Clearly there are a million stories/variations of the issue, but to this... I'd almost bet you that it's the dads who do the bare minimum are the ones saying "thank me!!!!". Where as the dads who really do step up and who really do take on their fair share and would do more - they are the ones who do it because thats, well, what you do as a father. And they don't expect/"need" anything past that.
Or, if you thank them, they are just as quick to thank you for what you do too.
Yup, the latter is MrP. When I thank him for handling A (usually out of a feeling of inferiority because mommy guilt has me thinking I should tend to his every peep myself), he looks at me like I have three heads and says "for being a parent?" I kind of don't have an opinion on this article as it relates to my own life because my husband is a fully equal parent and isn't craving praise (we're generally big thank you people).
We were just talking about this the other day, in conjunction with the "can't have it all" article and another we read about a dad who had a hard time with a response-less newborn. Women want men to do more, but when they do, they criticize, or roll their eyes at them for "minor" improvements. It's a bit of a chicken and an egg.
My advice to new moms, play damsel in distress now or you will foever be expected to manage everything on your own. There is such a thing as being too competent when it comes to getting help when you need it, unfortunately.
OFFS. Why does it have to be a fucking game? How about "have a child with a man who is responsible and will pull his weight if you don't want to do everything for your family"? A decent person will help no matter how 'competent' you are at any given time.