I did preface it as random related. Plus, one of these people could have been a mother. Which is related to the thread.
Meaning, life happens, you still need to show up for jury duty.
I am arguing for automatic waivers for some groups of people. If CO has trouble getting people to show up and their enforcement is so lax that people don't feel an external pressure to show up, that doesn't really support the argument that "life happens and you should show up." That high lights other problems with the jury system. Namely enforcement. Secondarily, if they had a waiver process that happened before the "show up" part of jury duty, they could send out additional summonses.
As to THIS story, and I mean THIS one (not questions about some 2 year old who will be traumatized by day care), there are a lot of reasons why leaving that kid at home for a day might not have been an option. The first one that comes to mind is that a child who has been EBF for 5 months might not even take a bottle. So we can argue over whether she should have, could afforded to, had the ability to get child care for ONE day on short notice, or whether she should have, could afford to, had the ability to get a pump and learn to use it for ONE day on short notice, but the most obvious problem with the "life happens" dismissal in THIS story, is that for A LOT of EBF 5 month olds (including PTS, but not K) this would have meant an infant going at least 9+ hours without eating. I'm sorry, but it's fucking unforgivable that that county (and apparently so many others) don't just have an automatic waiver for that situation.
The judge in this story is enforcing the rules.
As to the rest, I wonder what the attitude of the woman was while in court and if that had a major impact on the judge's decision. Especially since it was mentioned in the article that he does usually grant exemptions.
Honestly, the problem here is that all of you lived in counties with fucked up systems.
Alameda County's system is genius. While you get called more often (I get a summons every year, a year to the date of my last service), you can postpone for a year, and choose your new date for whenever you want. And it's one day or one trial. And you don't even have to go to a holding pen. Rather, the night before, you call a number (or look online) and they tell you if you have to come in for 9. If not, they tell you to check back at 11. Then you check at 11, and if they don't need you, they tell you your service is complete. Otherwise, you go in, and if you do, you are guaranteed to make it into a courtroom for voir dire. Child care is provided. If you aren't chosen to serve, your service is complete.
It's a brilliant system, everyone's hardships are taken into account by the fact that you've got a year to postpone and none of this sitting around uncertain for days on end.
We know how to do it right here.
This is how it is in my county as well, with exception that a case can still plead out before voir dire so potential jurors are held in an assembly room with the possibility of not making it into a courtroom.
I am arguing for automatic waivers for some groups of people. If CO has trouble getting people to show up and their enforcement is so lax that people don't feel an external pressure to show up, that doesn't really support the argument that "life happens and you should show up." That high lights other problems with the jury system. Namely enforcement. Secondarily, if they had a waiver process that happened before the "show up" part of jury duty, they could send out additional summonses.
As to THIS story, and I mean THIS one (not questions about some 2 year old who will be traumatized by day care), there are a lot of reasons why leaving that kid at home for a day might not have been an option. The first one that comes to mind is that a child who has been EBF for 5 months might not even take a bottle. So we can argue over whether she should have, could afforded to, had the ability to get child care for ONE day on short notice, or whether she should have, could afford to, had the ability to get a pump and learn to use it for ONE day on short notice, but the most obvious problem with the "life happens" dismissal in THIS story, is that for A LOT of EBF 5 month olds (including PTS, but not K) this would have meant an infant going at least 9+ hours without eating. I'm sorry, but it's fucking unforgivable that that county (and apparently so many others) don't just have an automatic waiver for that situation.
The judge in this story is enforcing the rules.
As to the rest, I wonder what the attitude of the woman was while in court and if that had a major impact on the judge's decision. Especially since it was mentioned in the article that he does usually grant exemptions.
Yes... I really have to wonder about this. In my personal experience, the judge I worked for usually did grant exemptions and waivers for parents w/ child care issues, but he did not appreciate entitled attitudes or people showing up with their kids to try and get out of jury duty (or whatever their reason was). And those people usually did get him talking pretty sternly to them about their behavior and/or not getting an exemption.
She was told she could bring a caregiver with her so she could BF the baby. Whether that's enough of an accommodation or not is up for debate, but it's not a terrible option, either.
Honestly, the problem here is that all of you lived in counties with fucked up systems.
Alameda County's system is genius. While you get called more often (I get a summons every year, a year to the date of my last service), you can postpone for a year, and choose your new date for whenever you want. And it's one day or one trial. And you don't even have to go to a holding pen. Rather, the night before, you call a number (or look online) and they tell you if you have to come in for 9. If not, they tell you to check back at 11. Then you check at 11, and if they don't need you, they tell you your service is complete. Otherwise, you go in, and if you do, you are guaranteed to make it into a courtroom for voir dire. Child care is provided. If you aren't chosen to serve, your service is complete.
It's a brilliant system, everyone's hardships are taken into account by the fact that you've got a year to postpone and none of this sitting around uncertain for days on end.
We know how to do it right here.
This is how it is in my county as well, with exception that a case can still plead out before voir dire so potential jurors are held in an assembly room with the possibility of not making it into a courtroom.
Oh you are probably right that that can happen here too. Still, the no holding pen is glorious.
I don't understand why other counties can't implement something like this. I'd rather be called more often in a more efficient, extremely flexible system then called less often in a poor functioning, rigid one.
Marylander signing in, I've never been called in all my 13 years of being an official resident here. If you are in certain counties are you more/less likely? Marylanders, weigh in!
ETA - DH has never either and he's been a MD resident his whole 36 years of life
HoCo-been here a year, never been called. Balt City----3 years, 3 calls.
Marylander signing in, I've never been called in all my 13 years of being an official resident here. If you are in certain counties are you more/less likely? Marylanders, weigh in!
ETA - DH has never either and he's been a MD resident his whole 36 years of life
How is this possible? We lived in Maryland for 5 years and both DH and I were summoned but never had to show.
Wow, that's crazy! I've never heard of that happening! Around here so many people show up that DH has served a few times and never been anywhere but the "holding pen." After 3 or 4 days of sitting around doing his research waiting to be called he was told he satisfied the requirement, they signed his paper and sent him on his way.
It's made urban legend status around here. I know certain people who will not go near the courthouse on jury days. I think it may have happened once or twice here as well, but not to that extent.
Wow, that's crazy! Is it a less populated area? Or do they give exemptions easily? I'd steer clear of the area too if that happened lol!
This is how it is in my county as well, with exception that a case can still plead out before voir dire so potential jurors are held in an assembly room with the possibility of not making it into a courtroom.
Oh you are probably right that that can happen here too. Still, the no holding pen is glorious.
I don't understand why other counties can't implement something like this. I'd rather be called more often in a more efficient, extremely flexible system then called less often in a poor functioning, rigid one.
So, where do people go? Our counties are large and, often, people work far away. Distance may be th issue?
It's made urban legend status around here. I know certain people who will not go near the courthouse on jury days. I think it may have happened once or twice here as well, but not to that extent.
Wow, that's crazy! Is it a less populated area? Or do they give exemptions easily? I'd steer clear of the area too if that happened lol!
Nope, not less populated. I really don't know what happened, but like sbp speculated it was probably an enforcement issue.
Marylander signing in, I've never been called in all my 13 years of being an official resident here. If you are in certain counties are you more/less likely? Marylanders, weigh in!
ETA - DH has never either and he's been a MD resident his whole 36 years of life
How is this possible? We lived in Maryland for 5 years and both DH and I were summoned but never had to show.
I know!! I feel like I haven't "done my duty" but I've never been asked!! We were Balt city for 5 years, Harford for 7 and now Howard. We both have licenses and are registered to vote so that's where they pool from right? I mean we are legitimate citizens lol!
Marylander signing in, I've never been called in all my 13 years of being an official resident here. If you are in certain counties are you more/less likely? Marylanders, weigh in!
ETA - DH has never either and he's been a MD resident his whole 36 years of life
How is this possible? We lived in Maryland for 5 years and both DH and I were summoned but never had to show.
Is he registered to vote? Otherwise, if he is, I have no idea.
Nope, it's not in the article. People are projecting here.
Yeahno. This woman said she didn't have any other options. People are looking for logical (and pretty obvious) explanations for why that might be the case. That's not projecting. That's critical reading.
My critical reading was this: She didn't try to find an option, just brought the kid along because who is going to deny her? Whoops, the judge did, now time to cry about it on national tv because boo hoo, sahm's with breastfeeding kids are being picked on.
Marylander signing in, I've never been called in all my 13 years of being an official resident here. If you are in certain counties are you more/less likely? Marylanders, weigh in!
ETA - DH has never either and he's been a MD resident his whole 36 years of life
HoCo-been here a year, never been called. Balt City----3 years, 3 calls.
Nope, it's not in the article. People are projecting here.
Yeahno. This woman said she didn't have any other options. People are looking for logical (and pretty obvious) explanations for why that might be the case. That's not projecting. That's critical reading.
Not necessarily. It could be she EBF so she didn't want to do a bottle of BM due to nipple confusion. That could be an obvious one as well.
Oh you are probably right that that can happen here too. Still, the no holding pen is glorious.
I don't understand why other counties can't implement something like this. I'd rather be called more often in a more efficient, extremely flexible system then called less often in a poor functioning, rigid one.
So, where do people go? Our counties are large and, often, people work far away. Distance may be th issue?
There are two courthouses in the county, which is quite large and as we all learned from the Bart thread last week, commutes here are insane. But they give you 2 or 3 hours to get to the courthouse. I think when you check in at 11, and you are called in, you have to be at the courthouse by 1:30 or 2.
Question: mom in OP is called. Court has daycare, which she takes advantage of. Baby is so young that it needs to nurse every hour or two.
Do they call a recess every time the baby needs to nurse? Do they just let it scream all day if it won't take a bottle? At any point is the court's care considered neglectful, since the food source the baby wants is being withheld at the court's order?
IME a trial day usually looks like this:
10am - start trial 12pm - lunch recess 1:30pm - resume trial 3pm - afternoon recess 3:15-3:30pm - resume trial 4-4:30pm - conclude trial for the day
Some judges even take a morning recess before lunch. So under this type of schedule, yes, there would already be built-in breaks every 1-2 hours.
Most judges & bailiffs bend over backwards to accommodate jurors because they realize it can be an onerous task. There have been times trial was postponed in order to accommodate stuff like medical appointments or half-days at school. The whole incident in the OP seems like such an anomaly to me. I feel like part of the story is missing, and that part may very well be that this judge is a known asshole.
Yeahno. This woman said she didn't have any other options. People are looking for logical (and pretty obvious) explanations for why that might be the case. That's not projecting. That's critical reading.
My critical reading was this: She didn't try to find an option, just brought the kid along because who is going to deny her? Whoops, the judge did, now time to cry about it on national tv because boo hoo, sahm's with breastfeeding kids are being picked on.
The article also didn't state that she got her denial and didn't research other care options before deciding to bring a kid.
How is this possible? We lived in Maryland for 5 years and both DH and I were summoned but never had to show.
I know!! I feel like I haven't "done my duty" but I've never been asked!! We were Balt city for 5 years, Harford for 7 and now Howard. We both have licenses and are registered to vote so that's where they pool from right? I mean we are legitimate citizens lol!
We lived in PG when we were summoned and then in Howard that last few years. DH has never been called since and that was over 10 years and three different states.
So, where do people go? Our counties are large and, often, people work far away. Distance may be th issue?
There are two courthouses in the county, which is quite large and as we all learned from the Bart thread last week, commutes here are insane. But they give you 2 or 3 hours to get to the courthouse. I think when you check in at 11, and you are called in, you have to be at the courthouse by 1:30 or 2.
I can't even imagine that happening in Balt City (of the 3 trials, all 3 were murder) so I'd imagine 2-3 hours to get in would slow it down tremendously. But, for counties? Probably.
She didn't even have to reply to the summons. Until they start sending jury summons in person or by certified mail, then it never arrived at your house.
How is this possible? We lived in Maryland for 5 years and both DH and I were summoned but never had to show.
I know!! I feel like I haven't "done my duty" but I've never been asked!! We were Balt city for 5 years, Harford for 7 and now Howard. We both have licenses and are registered to vote so that's where they pool from right? I mean we are legitimate citizens lol!
Same situation here. Though I've only lived here for 7 years. 2 in AA 5 in HoCo. My H also has never been called.
Nope, it's not in the article. People are projecting here.
Yeahno. This woman said she didn't have any other options. People are looking for logical (and pretty obvious) explanations for why that might be the case. That's not projecting. That's critical reading.
Well, since we are critically reading and not projecting, I would like to bring this full-CEP-circle and raise the point that I think breast pumps are now covered by most insurance policies, and Medicaid in many states, so that could eliminate the cost of pump issue right off the bat. Thanks, Obama!
She didn't even have to reply to the summons. Until they start sending jury summons in person or by certified mail, then it never arrived at your house.
I've been called 3 times, made it to the jury holding pen once, and was dismissed because the case was dropped day of. The judge felt badly that we had all been called in and then released.
Honestly, the problem here is that all of you lived in counties with fucked up systems.
Alameda County's system is genius. While you get called more often (I get a summons every year, a year to the date of my last service), you can postpone for a year, and choose your new date for whenever you want. And it's one day or one trial. And you don't even have to go to a holding pen. Rather, the night before, you call a number (or look online) and they tell you if you have to come in for 9. If not, they tell you to check back at 11. Then you check at 11, and if they don't need you, they tell you your service is complete. Otherwise, you go in, and if you do, you are guaranteed to make it into a courtroom for voir dire. Child care is provided. If you aren't chosen to serve, your service is complete.
It's a brilliant system, everyone's hardships are taken into account by the fact that you've got a year to postpone and none of this sitting around uncertain for days on end.
We know how to do it right here.
CoCo is the same, though I don't know about childcare. Since CoCo is freaking huge, they do offer an exemption for people who would need to travel more than 2hrs to the court house, but you have to show proof. I wanna say Alameda had something similar, but it's been years since I lived in Berkeley.
She didn't even have to reply to the summons. Until they start sending jury summons in person or by certified mail, then it never arrived at your house.
Oh totally. She should just throw away parking tickets too.
but is a mom who knows her baby isn't eating in the right head space to decide the fate of someone's life? I know my friend who did this to try to get her baby to take a bottle was a mess and I wouldn't want her sitting on a jury she was way too upset and distracted.
You must not have spent a lot of time in the jury holding pen! I don't want 90% of those people on my jury. I have never had jury duty when I wasn't distracted, anxious and stressed about something. Because jury duty is an interruption to my rather hectic daily life. Last time I served it was the day before I had 20 people including some in-laws I'd never met arriving to my house for Thanksgiving dinner. Distracted is putting it mildly!
That's why I want the pool to be as broad as possible--which is why postponements like ESF described seem ideal. Your baby is EBF, fine, wait until she is on solid foods. That's your postponement. Pick a day when you know someone will be around if you're freaked out by courtroom daycare, there's your postponement. Pick a day when you know you won't be hungover after too much Monday Night Football beer pong. The possibilities are endless.
Really there are a lot of easy solutions to this that many court systems are already implementing. And it is FAR superior to basically telling certain women (and yes, a small group of men) that they aren't needed for a decade or more (thinking of women in my family, my mom had kids under 5 for 12 years and her younger sister for more than 20). If we believe that excluding a sizable proportion of women 20-45 from the jury pool is no big deal, then it says a lot about what we think about those women and what they bring to the table IMO. Either that or it says we have no respect for the court system and think it's a joke so it doesn't matter who shows up! Especially when the costs of implementing a postponement system are likely minimal and may even save money since you don't need such enormous jury lounges in your courthouses and so many security stations to screen your daily horde or potential jurors.
I think we definitely need to make it easier to postpone. The second time DH served while we were in NY he was called when he had to be out of town on a business trip. They allowed him to choose the date he was postponed to, which made it so much easier. He chose a time where he had no looming deadlines so he wouldn't be up all night working on those while serving all day. He still worked at night so he wasn't as far behind but it was great being able to pick a time it was convenient in his work cycle.