I don't understand why more people don't put off college until they are independent for financial aid purposes. CC is easily affordable by a working student (at least in CA), and if you are single, low income, and transfer at 24, you will probably (like me) qualify for maximum federal and state grants.
Is graduating 4 years later really too big of a price to pay to not take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt that would otherwise be free money? Not for me, certainly.
Because to a lot of people, college is a lot more than just getting an education.
I don't understand why more parents don't tell their kids that going to a four year college at 18 isn't necessarily the best choice.
My dad barely passed highschool and he's probably one of the most financially irresponsible people I know, and my mom is an immigrant that is illiterate in English...
because up until like, 5 years ago it WAS the best choice? because they don't understand the financial ramifications themselves? because they really fucking want their kid to move out?
Conceded. These are probably people who, like a former professor of mine, could pay for school on their own with a summer job, because shit used to actually be affordable.
Because for most career paths, it still is the best choice.
ETA: It also offers a lot of flexibility. If you want to be a plumber, having a degree won't hinder you; but if you want to be an engineer, you'd better believe you can't get there without a degree.
My point was that whether this happens at 22 or 26 doesn't make enough of a difference for that far greater amount of debt to be worth it.
A few months ago, my dad once asked me why it was taking me so long to pay off my loans. I graduated UG in 2000, grad school (education) in 2006. My parents declared bankruptcy my senior yr in high school so there was no support or quality financial education at all from that end. But I had been told my whole life that college was absolutely required to succeed in life. I went to a state school for both, but there were no scholarships, and they still counted my parents income so I didn't qualify for Pell or other grants; I got a 'scholarship' for 'female sophomore for highest GPA' and it was a whopping $500. And I worked at least 20hrs all through school, but that mainly paied rent. It took me over 6yrs after UG to start making more than 30K, and I'm still earning under 50K. Also this year, between the payroll tax resetting and our union contract agreement increasing insurance contributions and furlough days our take home pay is now down $210 a month. After all these years, my total student loans right now are just under $58K, so annual income is still well under my loan balance (urgh). I work for a state university admin office, and every day I cringe for the students attending now, and do have debates about the morals of working in this system.
So, my dad is prying about why finances are tight, and he says he managed to pay off all my college debt (a la 1972) by the time your brother was born in 1975; what is my problem?!? Turns out his loans totalled $2000--I get that take home income was lower then, but overall income vs expenses was much better than we have today. I explained how much my college costs were and what my current balance is, and he was completely flabbergasted. The Boomer generation definitely pushed the college dream on us, and have absolutely no clue what our reality is like.
I haven't read through all the replies but I had to respond/commiserate to this, especially the bolded. My parents pushed - expected - college, but couldn't pay a dime towards it (my dad also had a bankruptcy). I got a few scholarships, worked through it, and took out student loans that 13 years later I just finished paying. I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do, but I distinctly remember my dad saying I should just get a 4 year general arts degree because "I can apply that degree towards anything! Worry about the money later!". Thankfully I knew a little better than that, but not by much. Education was so important to him (and rightfully so) but there was no conversation about debt, education as an investment, none of it.
I expect my kids to get a higher education as well, but my conversations with them will be much, much different than the conversations (or lack of) that my parents had with me.
ETA: I'm not bitching about the fact my parents didn't contribute any money, just wanted to make that clear. More so that there was this complete denial on their part that student loans eventually come due, and they really suck, lol.
Because for most career paths, it still is the best choice.
ETA: It also offers a lot of flexibility. If you want to be a plumber, having a degree won't hinder you; but if you want to be an engineer, you'd better believe you can't get there without a degree.
My point was that whether this happens at 22 or 26 doesn't make enough of a difference for that far greater amount of debt to be worth it.
That is bullshit if you want to enter some fields and also have a family. Add 4 years of med school and residency and any woman who wants to be a surgeon shouldn't start trying for kids until at least 35. A woman who wants to be a partner at a law firm will be waiting later than that. There are many considerations at play in these decisions.
Suggesting people are wrong for not following your chosen path is naive.
My point was that whether this happens at 22 or 26 doesn't make enough of a difference for that far greater amount of debt to be worth it.
That is bullshit if you want to enter some fields and also have a family. Add 4 years of med school and residency and any woman who wants to be a surgeon shouldn't start trying for kids until at least 35. A woman who wants to be a partner at a law firm will be waiting later than that. There are many considerations at play in these decisions.
Suggesting people are wrong for not following your chosen path is naive.
If your chosen field is lucrative enough that high student loan payments are worth it then obviously that is the better choice.
Wow, mine was I think $32K/yr when I went including room and board, and now it's $48K.
Let me tell ya, my education was NOT worth 48K and having worked there recently, I know the academic calibre hasn't gone up to the tune of 16K/yr.
I don't know what Jake's was but I know he graduated w $X in loans and he paid it all himself (room, board, tuition, books were what the loans went to, plus he worked usually 2 jobs). Right now his school is $38K with room and board and it includes a new laptop, lol. Granted there are a lot of 5yr programs, which is what he did, but still.
It just seems insane to me that I can go out and buy a house for a lower interest rate than student loans.
I think one of the interesting ways to cope with this crazy debt is to take out a home equity loan at a much lower interest rate, then use the money from that to pay the student loans, etc.
I'm not sure of the validity of this move, since it could have unforeseen consequences, but the concept is weird.
My understanding (not advice, just what I've read) is that student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy, but that home equity loans are. Making this move might help protect you in the future in case the worst happens and you need to hit the reset button. Obviously you need to pay them back if you can, but this could be a help if it's just not possible.
FSU is $215 per credit hour for in state, for tuition and fees (not including materials and housing). I don't know what it was when I was there in 1998-2001. Out of state is $721
When I went to UF (04-08) it was only about $100 an hour in state. I can't believe it has almost doubled since then (I think uf and fsu are the same price). And FL us one of the cheapest states for college.
Anyway, these conversations never fail to piss me off. I went to college when everything was great and shit hit the fan right after I graduated in 2008. I don't know how anyone in my age group was supposed to anticipate the long term effects if the sub prime mortgage crisis on our own employability and earning potential when we were in high school.
My H had a mom who pushed college hard core even though she had dropped out, was an LPN, and had no funds for him. He went to a CC, then graduated from a smaller state college. Then he got into the University of Chicago for grad school.
When we first started dating, my reaction was that he should NEVER have gone to grad school without an offer for a free ride. That means they don't really want you. You're good enough not to embarrass them but really they just want your money. But he had few college graduates in his family, and just didn't know.
So he's 15 years out of grad school and still paying this stupid loan. It's not terrible, but it does affect how much house we can finance, so we're basically eating tomato soup and ramen noodles this year to finally get it all paid off.
I do think having that Chicago degree got him jobs he wouldn't have otherwise without that name recognition and association. But as far as studying ELit, he probably would have been almost as well served at a state school, and could have enjoyed his 20's and 30's more.
So I just checked, because I had once considered schooling abroad. You can do your undergrad, as an international student in Edinburgh, for 12500gbp, or about $20000 per year. Obviously that doesn't include living costs, but it's crazy to me that it would be cheaper in most instances to study abroad than to go to an in state school.
This post is like another world for me. I had no damn idea.
Post by gretchenindisguise on Nov 8, 2013 11:57:40 GMT -5
My parents are both very well educated. Neither they, nor I, honestly fully understood how my grad school financial situation was going to work when I accepted/enrolled. My first day of orientation, I had to walk over to the financial aid office to apply for student loans. I was told I was going to have a 'full' graduate award with a stipend. I thought that was going to get me through the first year, and then after that it'd be renewed - because that's how it worked for both my mom and brother. Turns out 'full' graduate award = 18 credit hours (9/semester) for the first year. My program required 27 the first year (12 for fall, 12 for spring, 3 over the summer). Credit hours were $900/hr. We were not allowed to work during our first year of school.
I had never taken out a student loan. My parents never had student loans. My brother didn't have any. So when I went to the financial aid office - I expected them to help guide me. They failed. I took out private loans that first semester. I learned the ropes after that point and did subsidized/unsubsidized federal loans.
Eh. If I had it to do all over again - I probably would have taken a year off and gone to a different school. But then I wouldn't be where I am today. I have a really kickass education, I got married to H - had a great internship and postdoc, had L and am now in my current position and kind of rocking it. I have a shit ton of student loan debt. Should I have been smarter? Probably. Was I? Obviously not. Was there a vast amount of information out there that I willingly ignored? I honestly don't think so.
Once H has a real job (come on summer...!) we will be way better off and I probably won't resent them as much as I do currently.
My H had a mom who pushed college hard core even though she had dropped out, was an LPN, and had no funds for him. He went to a CC, then graduated from a smaller state college. Then he got into the University of Chicago for grad school.
When we first started dating, my reaction was that he should NEVER have gone to grad school without an offer for a free ride. That means they don't really want you. You're good enough not to embarrass them but really they just want your money. But he had few college graduates in his family, and just didn't know.
So he's 15 years out of grad school and still paying this stupid loan. It's not terrible, but it does affect how much house we can finance, so we're basically eating tomato soup and ramen noodles this year to finally get it all paid off.
I do think having that Chicago degree got him jobs he wouldn't have otherwise without that name recognition and association. But as far as studying ELit, he probably would have been almost as well served at a state school, and could have enjoyed his 20's and 30's more.
I know of almost no one who got a free ride to graduate school in a Liberal Arts field. I'm sure it happens, but it didn't happen at my (private) graduate school, or at the state school that most of my current co-workers went to.
I had a scholarship for 1/2 tuition and a part-time TA job, which covered 1/2 of one class. I took out the maximum loans possible, because I needed to pay rent and live off of that money. It may seem dumb - and I am still paying those loans at 40, I'll admit. But the experience was worth it to me.
My H had a mom who pushed college hard core even though she had dropped out, was an LPN, and had no funds for him. He went to a CC, then graduated from a smaller state college. Then he got into the University of Chicago for grad school.
When we first started dating, my reaction was that he should NEVER have gone to grad school without an offer for a free ride. That means they don't really want you. You're good enough not to embarrass them but really they just want your money. But he had few college graduates in his family, and just didn't know.
So he's 15 years out of grad school and still paying this stupid loan. It's not terrible, but it does affect how much house we can finance, so we're basically eating tomato soup and ramen noodles this year to finally get it all paid off.
I do think having that Chicago degree got him jobs he wouldn't have otherwise without that name recognition and association. But as far as studying ELit, he probably would have been almost as well served at a state school, and could have enjoyed his 20's and 30's more.
That is just absolutely false in a soft science grad school.
We had 2/8 in my year that had full rides (honestly odd for my program - most years only have 1). The rest of us did not. We beat out around 200 other people to get those other 6 spots. We were wanted.
FSU is $215 per credit hour for in state, for tuition and fees (not including materials and housing). I don't know what it was when I was there in 1998-2001. Out of state is $721
I graduated FSU with under $20k in loans because I bankrolled community college first and lived in a scholarship house for my time there. I thought I was drowning in debt.
Despite everything, including hating my job/career, I think I would do my education the same all over again. The only thing I would do differently is participate more in the campus/student life during undergrad. Since I went to school locally, I didn't really get as involved in the social aspects as much as I wish I had. I had friends outside of school and hung out with them more, except freshman year when I lived on campus. I didn't have any UG loans, but I have debt from law school. I could have had a free ride at a different school, but I loved the experience I got at the school I went to, and I'm proud of my degree, even though I'd prefer to not be using it. Sometimes when I'm depressed and mopey, I say I regret it, but I really don't.
I think I did college well all things considered. I took the credit limit every semester (19 credit hours for my ug), got good grades and joined a lot of social groups. I think knowing it had a hefty price tag made me get everything I possibly could out of it.
I don't understand why more people don't put off college until they are independent for financial aid purposes. CC is easily affordable by a working student (at least in CA), and if you are single, low income, and transfer at 24, you will probably (like me) qualify for maximum federal and state grants.
Is graduating 4 years later really too big of a price to pay to not take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt that would otherwise be free money? Not for me, certainly.
Well, I'll be the asshole and say that there are a lot of people for whom CC isn't appropriate. Sorry, but as someone who was applying to Ivies and other top schools, I wasn't going to go to CC to save money and graduate 4 years late.
Well I guess I'll be the asshole and say I worked very close to full time, went to CC full time, and transferred to a top school. But whatever. I didn't say it was for everyone. I said I didn't understand why more people don't do it.
My kids are being very, very strongly encouraged to attend a local community college and live at home for the first two years.
I was poor growing up and (although I did very well in high school and was encouraged to go to a 4 year university right away) I chose to do my general ed at our local community college. It saved me a ton of money in the long run and I still managed to graduate with my BA in four years. I strongly encourage people to start at a community college to get their general ed done (or mostly done) then transfer to a more expensive 4 year school. You definitely need to be on top of which courses transfer and which don't though and a good relationship with the financial aid and student advisement centers is beneficial.
My kids are being very, very strongly encouraged to attend a local community college and live at home for the first two years.
I was poor growing up and (although I did very well in high school and was encouraged to go to a 4 year university right away) I chose to do my general ed at our local community college. It saved me a ton of money in the long run and I still managed to graduate with my BA in four years. I strongly encourage people to start at a community college to get their general ed done (or mostly done) then transfer to a more expensive 4 year school. You definitely need to be on top of which courses transfer and which don't though and a good relationship with the financial aid and student advisement centers is beneficial.
I do think this is good advice. However I know a lot of programs (such as engineering or even fashion design at my ug) that plan out the classes the whole 4 years, so CC classes wouldn't transfer to the requirements necessary either for the student's particular school or the major.
I don't understand why more people don't put off college until they are independent for financial aid purposes. CC is easily affordable by a working student (at least in CA), and if you are single, low income, and transfer at 24, you will probably (like me) qualify for maximum federal and state grants.
Is graduating 4 years later really too big of a price to pay to not take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt that would otherwise be free money? Not for me, certainly.
Well, I'll be the asshole and say that there are a lot of people for whom CC isn't appropriate. Sorry, but as someone who was applying to Ivies and other top schools, I wasn't going to go to CC to save money and graduate 4 years late.
In what kind of instance is CC not appropriate? I'm a proponent for CC first then transition to a 4-year school. Most degrees require 60 credits of gen ed. Why pay a larger tuition for the same credits? Also how would you be graduating 4 years late?
PS- I went to a CC, then an online Bachelors program and then went Ivy (and was #1 ranked school for my program so you can sense the competition). That's saying I had also attributes they were looking for than just scholastics.
I don't understand why more people don't put off college until they are independent for financial aid purposes. CC is easily affordable by a working student (at least in CA), and if you are single, low income, and transfer at 24, you will probably (like me) qualify for maximum federal and state grants.
Is graduating 4 years later really too big of a price to pay to not take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt that would otherwise be free money? Not for me, certainly.
Well, I'll be the asshole and say that there are a lot of people for whom CC isn't appropriate. Sorry, but as someone who was applying to Ivies and other top schools, I wasn't going to go to CC to save money and graduate 4 years late.
Plus, when you factor in the opportunity costs of the hypothtically higher-paying job after degree completion, putting it off for 6 years (18 to 24) is not always a good financial move in the long run.
Well, I'll be the asshole and say that there are a lot of people for whom CC isn't appropriate. Sorry, but as someone who was applying to Ivies and other top schools, I wasn't going to go to CC to save money and graduate 4 years late.
In what kind of instance is CC not appropriate? I'm a proponent for CC first then transition to a 4-year school. Most degrees require 60 credits of gen ed. Why pay a larger tuition for the same credits? Also how would you be graduating 4 years late?
PS- I went to a CC, then an online Bachelors program and then went Ivy (and was #1 ranked school for my program so you can sense the competition). That's saying I had also attributes they were looking for than just scholastics.
True, but another thing to factor in is that most universities don't offer the large merit scholarships to transfer students. They're recruiting awards to attract the best and brightest first-term students.
Well, I'll be the asshole and say that there are a lot of people for whom CC isn't appropriate. Sorry, but as someone who was applying to Ivies and other top schools, I wasn't going to go to CC to save money and graduate 4 years late.
In what kind of instance is CC not appropriate? I'm a proponent for CC first then transition to a 4-year school. Most degrees require 60 credits of gen ed. Why pay a larger tuition for the same credits? Also how would you be graduating 4 years late?
PS- I went to a CC, then an online Bachelors program and then went Ivy (and was #1 ranked school for my program so you can sense the competition). That's saying I had also attributes they were looking for than just scholastics.
I came in to college with over two semester's worth of AP credits. The only general ed class I was required to take was English. Everything else (that I didn't place out of) was specific to my engineering/architecture major. CC would have done me no good.
I don't know; I get squicked out when earning potential enters the mix. My theology degree was never going to make sense in the context of earning potential, even if I had used it after graduation. If you think that way, then all liberal-arts degrees are pretty unworthy of expensive schools.
Some people take those liberal arts degrees and earn a lot. I know a msw who makes 7 figures. But if the discussion is about being overwhelmed with debt then the ability to pay it off should absolutely be considered.
Hindsight is always 20/20, so while I can spend time looking at the less than ideal misinformed choices that I made and lament over them, FI and I are being flexible by what we're choosing to invest our time in now.
If anything, FI is really taking one for the team because its been most important in life for him to be in a career that he absolutely loves and is passionate about (hence, music). But he's quitting the opera company he's currently in after their next production so he can do appraisals full time so we'll be in a financially better place.
I enjoyed the dabbling aspect of CC. At that age, it's nice to have a cheaper environment to branch out a bit and figure out what interests you. I know a lot of people who spent their time taking fluff classes and bare bones general ed courses but I really pushed myself. I would absolutely not have figured out what my "thing" was without CC, I am too practical and would have locked myself into one major the moment I stepped foot in a four year and that would have been that because I would have never been brave enough to change majors and waste money. It wasn't until close to my last quarter at CC that I finally had my lightbulb moment and that's only because I decided to take a course in human osteology because why the hell not? I wouldn't have felt comfortable playing and feeling things out like that at a much more expensive four year.
I don't know. I'm rambling. I really like community college, but I also live in close proximity to Seattle and most of our community colleges work with even the private liberal art schools to make sure credits are appropriate and will transfer so maybe the caliber of education is different?