I just think it's funny how often this topic comes up on a website full of women - it would be a lot more informative for me if this was a discussion between people who have penises, just sayin'!
ETA: not saying women can't discuss it, that it's useless etc and I get that lots of people here have sons - just pointing out the irony
This argument is always useless because nobody can be civil about it. Nobody will change their minds.
I feel like I'm completely civil about it. I didn't do it, and I don't care (even a tiny bit) if others do.
The only thing that makes me kind of upset is when grown women are all: 'ew - it's so gross!!' please stfu.
And - I recall that St.Pete's husband changed his mind on the subject.
hell - even I changed my mind.
Ditto to that. I'm pretty sure I've called people fucking idiots on here that said something to that effect. I stand by that.
I am anti-circumcision overall, but I question the need for a law banning it. I feel like education and social awareness would be better methods towards implementing a change. This is just going to create more division and unnecessary hostility from the group of people you are trying to protect.
To some it might be barbaric, but I think to simply say it is done for cosmetic reasons is both being too simple and belittling.
And, like it or not, I have heard a good amount of stories of boy getting this done later in life because of constant infections because they were not cleaning themselves properly.
There seems to be a glaringly obvious solution to this here other than surgery.
I will add that this happens SO MUCH less now b/c the law of the pediatric land is to leave it alone.
Way back when - they had parents start pulling the skin back a few times/day. The skin is actually adheared to the penis, so this caused tears, which got infected.
They have found that in *most* cases - if you just leave it alone, it naturally separates over time - on it's own schedule.
To some it might be barbaric, but I think to simply say it is done for cosmetic reasons is both being too simple and belittling.
And, like it or not, I have heard a good amount of stories of boy getting this done later in life because of constant infections because they were not cleaning themselves properly.
There seems to be a glaringly obvious solution to this here other than surgery.
To some it might be barbaric, but I think to simply say it is done for cosmetic reasons is both being too simple and belittling.
And, like it or not, I have heard a good amount of stories of boy getting this done later in life because of constant infections because they were not cleaning themselves properly.
But what's wrong with that? You know, you have problems, you fix them. No reason to cut them just in case!
To some it might be barbaric, but I think to simply say it is done for cosmetic reasons is both being too simple and belittling.
And, like it or not, I have heard a good amount of stories of boy getting this done later in life because of constant infections because they were not cleaning themselves properly.
There seems to be a glaringly obvious solution to this here other than surgery.
Post by snipsnsnails on Jun 28, 2012 13:35:32 GMT -5
Oh, well there isn't necessarily a midway point between medically necessary and cosmetic in this discussion. There is a point on a total different sphere. People participate in circumcision and have for thousands of years because of the religious significance and importance it holds - major world religions that encompass billions of people.
I'm curious whether people also think we should outlaw piercing a baby's ears? (not saying it's the same thing, but wondering if there is a correlation)
Oh, well there isn't necessarily a midway point between medically necessary and cosmetic in this discussion. There is a point on a total different sphere. People participate in circumcision and have for thousands of years because of the religious significance and importance it holds - major world religions that encompass billions of people.
You could make a similar argument for female excision, which IS illegal.
To some it might be barbaric, but I think to simply say it is done for cosmetic reasons is both being too simple and belittling.
And, like it or not, I have heard a good amount of stories of boy getting this done later in life because of constant infections because they were not cleaning themselves properly.
But what's wrong with that? You know, you have problems, you fix them. No reason to cut them just in case!
Folks, I am not saying it is 100% needed and neither was I sharing my personal opinion. I was simply pointing out to say it is absolutely not is not correct either.
I'm curious whether people also think we should outlaw piercing a baby's ears? (not saying it's the same thing, but wondering if there is a correlation)
Um, no. My girls have pierced ears. But it isn't a major life decision that can't be undone, you know?
I'm curious whether people also think we should outlaw piercing a baby's ears? (not saying it's the same thing, but wondering if there is a correlation)
Um, no. My girls have pierced ears. But it isn't a major life decision that can't be undone, you know?
did you do it for cultural or religious reasons?
if it were banned, would you want a cultural or religious exemption?
Booby, I have seen you in every circumcision thread ever on the nest. ML never forgets!
Honestly, Germany looks like an asshole making laws against a religious practice held central to the belief system of a group of people it murdered by the millions about 70 years ago.
I'm curious whether people also think we should outlaw piercing a baby's ears? (not saying it's the same thing, but wondering if there is a correlation)
There's a correlation. It's not necessary and the baby doesn't give consent, although they're not sexual organs.
Oh, well there isn't necessarily a midway point between medically necessary and cosmetic in this discussion. There is a point on a total different sphere. People participate in circumcision and have for thousands of years because of the religious significance and importance it holds - major world religions that encompass billions of people.
You could make a similar argument for female excision, which IS illegal.
Well, no, the arguments would not be similarly formed. Adherents to the practice of cliteridectomy are most often stemming from cultural histories and practices and not being viewed as a formative practice in a major world religion.
I understand your passion is the same for both, but I think there is real danger in banning significant religious practices in a society.
if it were banned, would you want a cultural or religious exemption?
I did it for cultural reasons. If it were banned, I woudln't do it. It isn't a huge deal to me or anything.
perhaps that will be the reaction of some in germany. my guess is that it will not be the reaction of the (likely small) group of jewish and muslim believers will not, and that it's going to look (to them) a lot like a bunch of other laws from the 1930s.
i think if you want circumcision not to happen, busting out a law isn't the best way to go about it. if i had a son, i'm guessing i probably wouldn't circumcise. then again, i wouldn't call it "mutilation" or "barbaric" either.
yeah, I realize it's something that you can undo unlike circumcision - but you're still doing something that causes pain to a baby and could be considered arbitrary by some people. at what point does the government stop? kwim? (my focus was more about the gov't than how serious or not serious the procedure is)
also, I think we should all ask our H's how they feel about their penises and report back tomorrow
yeah, I realize it's something that you can undo unlike circumcision - but you're still doing something that causes pain to a baby and could be considered arbitrary by some people. at what point does the government stop? kwim? (my focus was more about the gov't than how serious or not serious the procedure is)
also, I think we should all ask our H's how they feel about their penises and report back tomorrow
Yes, but to speak to this case, the bodily integrity itself would not be permanently and irreparably changed.
also, I think we should all ask our H's how they feel about their penises and report back tomorrow
This sounds like a great way to get an unbiased perspective on the topic.
lol why because they'll all just say "I freaking LOVE my penis" regardless of it's circumcision status? in which case, I have no idea where that leaves us.
I feel strongly about circumcision. I don't feel strongly about outlawing it, but my bias is "great". But I get the whole "where does it stop" argument.
Perhaps education is the better way. The rates in Canada have dropped dramatically now that doctors don't recommend it and basically tell parents that it is useless.
On the other hand, my problem with religious exceptions is that babies don't choose to be born in a certain religion. Couldn't grown men get circomcized once they decide it is best for them and it is important for their beliefs?
This sounds like a great way to get an unbiased perspective on the topic.
lol why because they'll all just say "I freaking LOVE my penis" regardless of it's circumcision status? in which case, I have no idea where that leaves us.
Considering the majority of 30 something north american men is circumsized, it will bias the debate quite a bit. No?
lol why because they'll all just say "I freaking LOVE my penis" regardless of it's circumcision status? in which case, I have no idea where that leaves us.
Considering the majority of 30 something north american men is circumsized, it will bias the debate quite a bit. No?
oh, well I assume there are some uncircumcised men in the crowd - it wasn't about numbers and whoever has more wins etc. I'm just honestly curious what guys think about it. what would they choose for their son? if they are, would they have it done or not to their son? I was more interested in opinions/thoughts than getting more people on one side or the other. granted, maybe guys don't think about it as much as we do, lol
Couldn't grown men get circumcized once they decide it is best for them and it is important for their beliefs?
That is what Germany is saying is an acceptable alternative. The problem being that in Judaism it is a vital part of acceptance into the religion at the start, signifying your entrance into not just a community of believers, but acceptance into a chosen people of their God. You would be hard-pressed to wait on this. In Islam, it has also been historically seen as a divine commandment, given from the beginning for the child to enter into this religion.
Couldn't grown men get circumcized once they decide it is best for them and it is important for their beliefs?
That is what Germany is saying is an acceptable alternative. The problem being that in Judaism it is a vital part of acceptance into the religion at the start, signifying your entrance into not just a community of believers, but acceptance into a chosen people of their God. You would be hard-pressed to wait on this. In Islam, it has also been historically seen as a divine commandment, given from the beginning for the child to enter into this religion.
And there is a much higher rate of complications if it's done as an adult
yeah, I realize it's something that you can undo unlike circumcision - but you're still doing something that causes pain to a baby and could be considered arbitrary by some people. at what point does the government stop? kwim? (my focus was more about the gov't than how serious or not serious the procedure is)
also, I think we should all ask our H's how they feel about their penises and report back tomorrow
Well if you're going to compare it to ear piercing and say at what point does the government stop, I think it's easy to decide when the government stops - when you're not physically altering your child's body unless it's for medical reasons. I think the bigger question is at what age do you consider them old enough to make these kinds of decisions? Would the age be different for something like circumcision versus ear piercing due to the severity of it?
FTR, I went back and forth on piercing the girls ears and decided not to but I have no problem with people who do. I wouldn't circumcise if we had boys.