i think that to the extent that men think this, they're not really thinking it, they're excusing themselves with mental backpeddling for behavior that they know is wrong.
Agree.
It angers me greatly that a women would, in a sense, excuse this behavior with a blanket statement that most men think this way.
He really thinks your body is his stuff, and he owns you. And apparently if you don't fall in line and act like a good piece of property, he gets to find someone else. What a complete sociopath.
He may have at one point, but he really has changed. It has been several years since the last incident occurred. The reason I am still upset about it is because he wants me to forget about it so we can have a clean slate-- it bothers him that I still have trust/intimacy issues.
This is not the reason why you're still upset about this, or at least it's far from the only reason. Once again you're throwing your own feelings under the bus because HE feels bad. There are no clean slates, that is bullshit. There are only degrees of acceptance and forgiveness. You have not forgiven him and what he did is unforgivable.
He may have at one point, but he really has changed. It has been several years since the last incident occurred. The reason I am still upset about it is because he wants me to forget about it so we can have a clean slate-- it bothers him that I still have trust/intimacy issues.
That he feels entitled to a clean slate is alarming.
I don't stay with rapists. No matter how sorry they are.
I know, that's what I think, too. But I feel like if his attitude on this has already come so far, I want to find out if we can clear this part up, too. Which is why I posted last night. I just needed to find out if I am being overly sensitive for holding onto it for this long.
He may have at one point, but he really has changed. It has been several years since the last incident occurred. The reason I am still upset about it is because he wants me to forget about it so we can have a clean slate-- it bothers him that I still have trust/intimacy issues.
This is not the reason why you're still upset about this, or at least it's far from the only reason. Once again you're throwing your own feelings under the bus because HE feels bad. There are no clean slates, that is bullshit. There are only degrees of acceptance and forgiveness. You have not forgiven him and what he did is unforgivable.
Exactly. I don't think there is "move past this," I think there is only "I ignore my instincts and feelings," which isn't healthy or functional. As a person -- forget the relationship side of things.
What's the statute of limitations on rape? Because I'm pretty sure the criminal justice system doesn't think you should "get over it" just because it's been a while since it happened.
That he feels entitled to a clean slate is alarming.
I don't stay with rapists. No matter how sorry they are.
I know, that's what I think, too. But I feel like if his attitude on this has already come so far, I want to find out if we can clear this part up, too. Which is why I posted last night. I just needed to find out if I am being overly sensitive for holding onto it for this long.
That you had to ask that shows how much you have been abused by this guy. I bet he's controlled you in other ways, tried to minimize what you feel by calling you things like "irrational" or "crazy."
This guy raped you, repeatedly, and now wants you to get over it already. You need to understand just now NOT OK that is.
Honestly, what that poster described really echoes what my H told me he was thinking regarding the sleep sex. He had done it before and I was ok with it, so why should it be a big deal the next time? And when I reminded him that I had told him no (before going to bed), he said that he didn't think I would still not want it several hours later. He was honestly atounded and confused that i felt so betrayed and hurt.
He's a fucking liar.
Lets say your child came to you, asked for pudding. You said no. Two hours later, child comes back and instead of asking you for pudding, he takes it. His reasoning is that you let him have pudding yesterday and just because you said no two hours ago didn't make him think you would say no now.
Doesn't make sense, does it? This man knows what he did wrong and the more information you give us the more pissed off I get for you.
He really thinks your body is his stuff, and he owns you. And apparently if you don't fall in line and act like a good piece of property, he gets to find someone else. What a complete sociopath.
He may have at one point, but he really has changed. It has been several years since the last incident occurred. The reason I am still upset about it is because he wants me to forget about it so we can have a clean slate-- it bothers him that I still have trust/intimacy issues.
He hasn't changed at all if he still doesn't think this is rape, and does think you should just get over it. And really, he has "come so far" in that you finally after long last got him to stop repeatedly raping you? Just read that aloud to yourself for a moment, and see how ridiculous that sounds.
Pedantic brings up a good point. I can't tell you how many times in my almost-decade on The Nest/Knot where this topic has come up and the majority of the women believe there is implied consent once there is a marriage license involved. I've had women tell me I'm fucking nuts for NOT thinking it's okay that my husband use my body as his own personal playground once I no longer have the capacity to say "no" (i.e. while I"m sleeping). Absolutely revolting.
Post by ThirdandLong on Jul 10, 2012 11:16:04 GMT -5
Somewhat related question: If it's the other way around - you wake up or otherwise feel amorous and start foreplay with your sleeping H, was it assault if he wakes up and says no and you stop? Is it just a misunderstanding? Should you always first wake up your spouse before initiating foreplay, just to make sure they are consenting? Or maybe does it just depend on your particular relationship?
Somewhat related question: If it's the other way around - you wake up or otherwise feel amorous and start foreplay with your sleeping H, was it assault if he wakes up and says no and you stop? Is it just a misunderstanding? Should you always first wake up your spouse before initiating foreplay, just to make sure they are consenting? Or maybe does it just depend on your particular relationship?
Your thoughts...
Please think this through for thirty seconds and answer the question yourself. Good lord.
Somewhat related question: If it's the other way around - you wake up or otherwise feel amorous and start foreplay with your sleeping H, was it assault if he wakes up and says no and you stop? Is it just a misunderstanding? Should you always first wake up your spouse before initiating foreplay, just to make sure they are consenting? Or maybe does it just depend on your particular relationship?
Your thoughts...
Please think this through for thirty seconds and answer the question yourself. Good lord.
I know my personal answer. My H is always happy with a little wake up foreplay. But that's our relationship - it's quite clear and not misunderstood. I just wondered how others felt about it.
The fact that the AE is having nightmares long afterwards shows that she has PTSD. Girl, you need therapy big time. You have needed it for a long time. You've been traumatized.
"Why would you ruin perfectly good peanuts by adding candy corn? That's like saying hey, I have these awesome nachos, guess I better add some dryer lint." - Nonny
Post by eightangryreindeer on Jul 10, 2012 11:24:14 GMT -5
Wake up foreplay is not the same as having sex with a sleeping person.
Obviously if you like to grind your ass into your husband's dick in the morning in hopes of a little alarm clock canoodle, it's not the same as just jumping on his morning wood and having at it before he's gotten the sleep out of his eyes.
The fact that you're even relating these two situations is bizarre. One is an intimate, affectionate moment in which consent is confirmed by response and the other IS NOT.
There is a huge difference between half-awake consensual foreplay that may or may not turn into something and full on rape of a sleeping person who is non-responsive. Mr. Bang and I have certainly done the former and sometimes it leads to something, sometimes we both fall back asleep. But that's not what OP's H did.
Wake up foreplay is not the same as having sex with a sleeping person.
Obviously if you like to grind your ass into your husband's dick in the morning in hopes of a little alarm clock canoodle, it's not the same as just jumping on his morning wood and having at it before he's gotten the sleep out of his eyes.
The fact that you're even relating these two situations is bizarre. One is an intimate, affectionate moment in which consent is confirmed by response and the other IS NOT.
no no, you're wrong. either everything is rape or nothing is, and everyone here is a hyporcrite or no one is.
Post by EmilieMadison on Jul 10, 2012 11:27:44 GMT -5
This is disgusting. It's part of the "boys will be boys" thing that makes me absolutely sick. Normal, healthy men (or even teens!) absolutely know that it's not ok to have sex with someone who is unconscious, or who says no.
Somewhat related question: If it's the other way around - you wake up or otherwise feel amorous and start foreplay with your sleeping H, was it assault if he wakes up and says no and you stop? Is it just a misunderstanding? Should you always first wake up your spouse before initiating foreplay, just to make sure they are consenting? Or maybe does it just depend on your particular relationship?
Your thoughts...
My situation is a little fucked up because of my parasomnias, but the deal with H and I is that if one of us suspects the other may be asleep, an attempt to awaken the sleeping party must be made unless explicit consent to sleep-bang was previously given. It is seriously sometimes hard to tell with me, though. I will act like I am awake in my sleep sometimes. I mean, I have held entire conversations. If he starts while I am actually asleep, I am generally ok with it, but if I wake up and tell him to cut that shit out, he listens.
I have also grabbed H's junk through his boxers in my sleep and started talking dirty, and generally he is ok with it, but if it bugs him he wakes me up and tells me to cut that shit out, and I listen.
I dated somebody once who tried to use the "I thought you were awake" excuse on me, but his attitude about it convinced me that even if he did think that, my being asleep would not have stopped him either way, and I dumped his ass. Even with funky sleep issues, it looks pretty cut and dried to me. Prickish sense of entitlement = asshole, not worth my time.
The fact that you're even relating these two situations is bizarre. One is an intimate, affectionate moment in which consent is confirmed by response and the other IS NOT.
It's not bizarre. The one made me ponder the other. Of course, the situations are different. It seems normal for a H to begin sleeping foreplay with his spouse. He should have stopped after a few minutes when she didn't wake. He didn't stop - the line was crossed.
I wrote that original comment. Almost every single friend of mine has said that it has happened to her. And, when she told the guy to get the fuck off of her, most of the guys seemed genuinely confused. They didn't get why it was such a big deal. It has happened to me as well. It took some explaining to make the guy realize that it's NOT okay, and that having a consensual sexual relationship does NOT mean they can just do you whenever they want. Thankfully, this attitude seems to be going away as more men hear the "no means no" message. That message wasn't as prevalent in the past.
What's more surprising to me is how some women think that it's okay, as other posters have mentioned. It was discussed more than once on TN, and some posters said since they were married, they felt they should allow it.
Keep in mind, I NEVER said it was okay. But, I thought it important to put it out there that some men really don't see it the way most of us women see it.
Post by wrathofkuus on Jul 10, 2012 12:27:59 GMT -5
"some men really don't see it the way most of us women see it."
Mary, I didn't attach your name to it because it wasn't clear to me whether or not you're condoning it. But really, the way this is said alarms and upsets me, as though it's only a matter of perspective whether a woman's body is hers, or whether it's up for grabs inside a relationship.
Marynjoe really? All of your friends have had this happen? I find that incredibly disturbing. I realize you aren't saying it's okay. I don't think I could ever trust my husband again if he did that to me. I'd honestly rather he cheat on me than sleep rape me. I could maybe most past cheating but sleep raping me? And then acting like it's okay because we're married? Deal breaker.
The funny thing is, this topic has come up before and when I asked my DH about it, while he said he'd never dream of doing that to me, he said waking up to me having sex with him would be a fantasy come true. I told him not to plan on that ever happening.
"some men really don't see it the way most of us women see it."
Mary, I didn't attach your name to it because it wasn't clear to me whether or not you're condoning it. But really, the way this is said alarms and upsets me, as though it's only a matter of perspective whether a woman's body is hers, or whether it's up for grabs inside a relationship.
I don't want to speak for her but I think it's along the lines of what my husband said to me. Waking up to a woman blowing him or having sex is a guy fantasy. To a (normal) woman, it's a nightmare. So maybe some of these guys are thinking they'd love to be ravaged in their sleep so the woman will like it too. A very stupid way of reasoning but who knows.