Post by wrathofkuus on Jul 10, 2012 10:32:03 GMT -5
A response from the sleeprape thread:
"FWIW, I've discovered that many men, especially when younger, don't think that it's rape. They think that once you've begun a consensual sexual relationship, it means they can have sex with you while you're asleep. They think you'd do it while awake, so why not when asleep? They often don't get why us women get mad about it. I've discussed this many of my girl friends over the years and it's happened to almost all of us. And almost all of the guys really didn't understand what we were saying. They really thought it was okay and no big deal."
Let's talk about how apparently it's common for men to think they pretty much own the bodies of the women they're involved with, and can use them whenever they want without the woman ever needing to be conscious, let alone actively consent. What do all of you think of this? Is this the logical outcome of the "no means no" definition of consent and rape, rather than a "yes means yes" definition? What can we do to change society in a way that makes people not think of women's bodies as semi-public property to be used as long as no one is actively saying no?
Oh HELL NO! That's a terrible, dangerous mindset to have. I think we have to stop saying things like no means no or yes means yes and really focus on CONSENT. You have to give it and at any point you can revoke it -- it's not a contract.
Oh HELL NO! That's a terrible, dangerous mindset to have. I think we have to stop saying things like no means no or yes means yes and really focus on CONSENT. You have to give it and at any point you can revoke it -- it's not a contract.
That thread was horrifying to me on many levels.
Well, the yes means yes movement is about consent. The gist of it is that the only consent that ever counts, ethically, is an active, enthusiastic, participatory yes. No "baby, it's cold outside" business allowed.
i cannot fathom why any man could ever think this ever. on earth. ever. i went to the dentist last week; he doesn't have my tacit permission to manhandle my jaw whenever he wants.
i do not think that it's the logical outcome of "no means no," because even my toddler understands that no and yes are immediate responses to immediate questions, not blanket responses to states of being.
i think that to the extent that men think this, they're not really thinking it, they're excusing themselves with mental backpeddling for behavior that they know is wrong.
I am blown away that this is a common thing. I have never experienced this or heard from anyone I know IRL that they have. I do have a friend who tries to have sex when he is asleep and it causes some serious issues for him. He doesn't do it on purpose and has tried many ways to stop himself from doing it.
See, to me "yes means yes" says you can't revoke the consent at some point. You already said yes! I haven't looked into the movement, though. I do know some people see "no means no" as "well, you didn't SAY no!" sort of thing -- and I wonder if that mindset could be shifted to "you already said yes!" If that makes sense.
I agree with Cville that it's all mental backpedaling instead of manning up or THINKING IN THE MOMENT.
i cannot fathom why any man could ever think this ever. on earth. ever. i went to the dentist last week; he doesn't have my tacit permission to manhandle my jaw whenever he wants.
i do not think that it's the logical outcome of "no means no," because even my toddler understands that no and yes are immediate responses to immediate questions, not blanket responses to states of being.
i think that to the extent that men think this, they're not really thinking it, they're excusing themselves with mental backpeddling for behavior that they know is wrong.
All of this.
A one time yes is never a blanket statement. That is just complete bullshit
me too. the more i think about it, the angrier i get. it's utter bullshit. NO man i know and respect thinks that. not a one.
and i really think that "baby it's cold outside" is a magnificent piece of songwriting with the overlapping lyrics and sort of snazzy background brass portions, which really pisses me off because the content is such nonsense.
Post by kellbell191 on Jul 10, 2012 10:43:38 GMT -5
I would imagine the men who think they can do it, do it because women like the OP stay with them. Other than her being kinda pissed, what's the punishment or downside?
So we can keep a knife by the bed and chop their balls off they try it. And teach our daughters to like themselves enough not to keep fucking men who act like that.
Also, can I just say that anyone who suggests she go to counseling with that jackwagon to "move past this" is pretty much agreeing with her husband that she should just get over being raped by her husband multiple times.
I cannot fathom that sleep rape is not only a common thing, but that there are bunches of men out there who think "she said yes once so that means YES ALWAYS". Disgusting.
Post by notmyrealusername on Jul 10, 2012 10:46:21 GMT -5
Honestly, what that poster described really echoes what my H told me he was thinking regarding the sleep sex. He had done it before and I was ok with it, so why should it be a big deal the next time? And when I reminded him that I had told him no (before going to bed), he said that he didn't think I would still not want it several hours later. He was honestly atounded and confused that i felt so betrayed and hurt.
i mean, for FUCK'S SAKE, legislatures full of ridiculous old male fossils changed laws to make marital rape a crime. granted, not beginning until FAR too late (1970s; ending 1990s), but damn. seriously.
men don't think this. men who claim to think this are lying. women who think that men who think this really do think this are deluded and need to get on the goddamned ball learning about their rights.
Post by wrathofkuus on Jul 10, 2012 10:49:44 GMT -5
He really thinks your body is his stuff, and he owns you. And apparently if you don't fall in line and act like a good piece of property, he gets to find someone else. What a complete sociopath.
Honestly, what that poster described really echoes what my H told me he was thinking regarding the sleep sex. He had done it before and I was ok with it, so why should it be a big deal the next time? And when I reminded him that I had told him no (before going to bed), he said that he didn't think I would still not want it several hours later. He was honestly atounded and confused that i felt so betrayed and hurt.
Seee, I don't believe this. I'd say "lying liar who lies" to that.
Of course he's going to CLAIM that, because that makes him a dude that screwed up instead of a rapist. The fact that it happened more than once just doubly/triply proves that he DOESN"T LISTEN when women say no.
Post by speckledfrog on Jul 10, 2012 10:50:50 GMT -5
I read that and thought, "Well, that's not something I thought I would have to explicitly teach my son." I wonder why it's so common in that poster's area to the point where most of her friends have been date raped. Maybe they all slept with the same guy?
AE, it's not just about the sleep rape either. Didn't you also say that he coerces you into performing sex acts that you aren't comfortable with?
This is unacceptable and isn't healthy at all. In fact, I would go so far as to say that what he did in the past, even if he suddenly magically changes his ways, has permanently put you two on unequal footing here. He will always be your abuser and what he has done will always mean you have less power in this relationship.
And the waking up, the fear in the middle of the night, I wonder if that's PTSD.
If you aren't ready to leave now, I understand. But I think you should find a domestic abuse shelter and talk to someone there. You don't have to leave your house and stay there if you don't want to right now but they will be able to help you find the resources you need to sort this out. They will also be able to help you find a therapist and help secure childcare so you can attend.
Please consider doing that. Do it for your child. Do it for yourself. Even if you leave him, you still need therapy. It's the best step you can take.
He really thinks your body is his stuff, and he owns you. And apparently if you don't fall in line and act like a good piece of property, he gets to find someone else. What a complete sociopath.
He may have at one point, but he really has changed. It has been several years since the last incident occurred. The reason I am still upset about it is because he wants me to forget about it so we can have a clean slate-- it bothers him that I still have trust/intimacy issues.
He really thinks your body is his stuff, and he owns you. And apparently if you don't fall in line and act like a good piece of property, he gets to find someone else. What a complete sociopath.
He may have at one point, but he really has changed. It has been several years since the last incident occurred. The reason I am still upset about it is because he wants me to forget about it so we can have a clean slate-- it bothers him that I still have trust/intimacy issues.
This attitude tells me he hasn't really changed all that much.
He really thinks your body is his stuff, and he owns you. And apparently if you don't fall in line and act like a good piece of property, he gets to find someone else. What a complete sociopath.
He may have at one point, but he really has changed. It has been several years since the last incident occurred. The reason I am still upset about it is because he wants me to forget about it so we can have a clean slate-- it bothers him that I still have trust/intimacy issues.
That he feels entitled to a clean slate is alarming.
I don't stay with rapists. No matter how sorry they are.
AE, it's not just about the sleep rape either. Didn't you also say that he coerces you into performing sex acts that you aren't comfortable with?
This is unacceptable and isn't healthy at all. In fact, I would go so far as to say that what he did in the past, even if he suddenly magically changes his ways, has permanently put you two on unequal footing here. He will always be your abuser and what he has done will always mean you have less power in this relationship.
And the waking up, the fear in the middle of the night, I wonder if that's PTSD.
If you aren't ready to leave now, I understand. But I think you should find a domestic abuse shelter and talk to someone there. You don't have to leave your house and stay there if you don't want to right now but they will be able to help you find the resources you need to sort this out. They will also be able to help you find a therapist and help secure childcare so you can attend.
Please consider doing that. Do it for your child. Do it for yourself. Even if you leave him, you still need therapy. It's the best step you can take.
He did, when we first got married. He hasn't done that in a very long time, either.
He really thinks your body is his stuff, and he owns you. And apparently if you don't fall in line and act like a good piece of property, he gets to find someone else. What a complete sociopath.
He may have at one point, but he really has changed. It has been several years since the last incident occurred. The reason I am still upset about it is because he wants me to forget about it so we can have a clean slate-- it bothers him that I still have trust/intimacy issues.
the last sleep incident. you said he fake-humped you and refused to stop when you told him to a couple days ago.
i understand that you said in your other post that you're not ready to leave. i understand that he hasn't raped you in your sleep in a couple years. but the things he STILL does and the things he says to you indicate that his thinking about sex is seriously disordered.
Honestly, what that poster described really echoes what my H told me he was thinking regarding the sleep sex. He had done it before and I was ok with it, so why should it be a big deal the next time? And when I reminded him that I had told him no (before going to bed), he said that he didn't think I would still not want it several hours later. He was honestly atounded and confused that i felt so betrayed and hurt.
I don't believe this at all. He is either delusional or completely full of shit to say "he didn't think you would still not want it in a few hours". Your H is an abuser and a rapist and he is trying to keep you in a cycle of abuse by telling you that you need to try harder to get over it ... this is not a man you can stay married to. How could you ever get over this? I'm so sorry that you are in this situation and I truly hope you find a way out of it. Individual counseling is a good place to start.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente