Post by Ruby Gloom on Jul 10, 2012 12:47:54 GMT -5
First, I do not believe that the Rapist ever told his therapist what he did. That is my personal opinion. I do not believe that he believes that what he did is wrong.
IMO, he is dominating his wife, using her body as his property, and the emotional affair, as well as telling her basically to "get over it" or whatever words he used to discount her feelings about the incidents is yet another sign that her feelings do not matter to him, not one iota.
Dry humping her or performing whatever other jerk-off acts he does to her are yet ANOTHER sign of his domineering behavior, and all that it reminds me of is a dog that runs around humping other dogs to prove that he is, indeed the top dog.
IMO, which means basically nothing, I see a predator who feels as if he has his own little plaything making a nice home for him with whom he can do whatever he pleases, while he just trots off and fishes for a possible side piece. I don't think you can change that personality. And I seriously doubt he shared that he raped his wife with any counselor.
I weep for women who think that this kind of behavior is okay or acceptable.
It has happened to me. And not all, but almost all of my friends. **I 100% ABSOLUTELY DO NOT CONDONE IT! I NEVER SAID I DID!** I just put it out there as something to think about. When it happened to me or any of my friends, it turned into the longest talk/lecture that guy ever heard in his life. And the talk continued until he understood. Truly understood. If he never got to that point, he was gone.
And why does it seem like whenever I present a view on here that opposes the majority, it turns into 'I can't believe you agree with that!!!" When I NEVER said I agreed. If I agree with something, I’ll say so.
Interesting point. My gay friend and I have talked pretty openly about sex. When he jokingly said he wanted to rape a hot guy, I went off. I told him he can say the word rape all he wants, but most us women don't find that word funny at all and we don't tend to use it casually. So, we ended up talking about this sleep/sex/rape issue. He said it's happened to him, he's done it, and to him, it was no big deal. He'd tell the guy to get the fuck off, argue, then go back to sleep. It's not a big deal to him. Or vice-versa. *disclaimer: I'm NOT saying all gay men feel this way* I just thought was an interesting perspective on the issue.
One more thing that is important to add here: The OP of this thread left out what I said in the same post that was quoted here:
If he won't go to counselling, you need to go alone. You were raped. It affected you and still affects you to this day. Yet he minimizes it and thinks you should get over it. How are you supposed to work through this when you look at him every day and he shows no remorse or understanding of how it affects you?
Post by wrathofkuus on Jul 10, 2012 16:28:22 GMT -5
See, that's why people think you agree. You're talking about whether or not something is rape as though it's a matter of perspective, as though we'd welcome the perspective of a rapist as the other half of the picture or something. Really, wtf is up with that?!
Mary it shouldn't just be a woman thing. To really change the mindset we ALL need to get outraged when people use it that way - we need to get rid of the boys will be boys bull - etc. yes, it holds a different history for women but if we isolate it, not much will change.
Rape is rape is rape. However, what the poster defined as rape obviously isn't rape in her husband's eyes. I thought it might be worth of addressing how he may see what happened. Does that make it okay? NO Does it help a woman who is trying to work through it? Maybe.
Understanding the motivation behind deviant behavior does not ever make it okay. Understanding the perspective of the person committing deviant behavior does not make it okay. It's a tool to hopefully prevent it in the future. And sometimes, it can help the victim understand that what happened was not their fault.
Post by wrathofkuus on Jul 10, 2012 16:43:17 GMT -5
Okay, you seriously can't get why saying "well, the RAPIST doesn't think this kind of rape counts as rape, so we should probably listen to him and see where he's coming from" is rigoddamndiculous?
I did not say that what a rapist thinks should make what he did okay. NEVER.
I do think that the motivation and perspective of a criminal is important to preventing it from happening in the future. And, it may help the victim get closure on the issue.
I did not say that what a rapist thinks should make what he did okay. NEVER.
I do think that the motivation and perspective of a criminal is important to preventing it from happening in the future. And, it may help the victim get closure on the issue.
This isn't a goddamned sociology class, it's somebody's life. How does it benefit anyone, particularly her, to dissect his perspective? He's a liar and a cheater, and a rapist in top of it. I'm certainly not about to advocate that she waste her time delving into his psyche.
I did not say that what a rapist thinks should make what he did okay. NEVER.
I do think that the motivation and perspective of a criminal is important to preventing it from happening in the future. And, it may help the victim get closure on the issue.
This isn't a goddamned sociology class, it's somebody's life. How does it benefit anyone, particularly her, to dissect what his perspective is?
He's a liar and a cheater, and a rapist on top of it. I'm certainly not about to advocate that she waste her time delving into his psyche.
Actually, it is helpful. What Mary said is very similar to how my H explained his thought process. Knowing that he isn't doing it out of malice, that it's ignorance and selfishness is easier to handle.
This isn't a goddamned sociology class, it's somebody's life. How does it benefit anyone, particularly her, to dissect what his perspective is?
He's a liar and a cheater, and a rapist on top of it. I'm certainly not about to advocate that she waste her time delving into his psyche.
Actually, it is helpful. What Mary said is very similar to how my H explained his thought process. Knowing that he isn't doing it out of malice, that it's ignorance and selfishness is easier to handle.
I'm glad that it has helped you realize that you're not to blame for his behavior. But, he's still responsible for his. And I think his current behavior shows that he's not going to change. He is wrong and you have every reason to be angry.
Yeah, see, actually it's not helpful because you shouldn't find this easy to handle. This should piss you right the fuck off and want him junk punched. The idea that he isn't doing it out of malice should not and does not diminish what he's done to you nor should it make it easier to deal with.
This isn't childhood where "I didn't mean it" is a defense.
notmyrealusername: Please remember that, regardless of why everything happened, it's still not okay. And the fact that he's really not remorseful should show you that it will continue. When you said it's now "easier to handle" I hope you meant that it was easier on you because you've realized that it wasn't your fault. It's his way of thinking, not something you did. And obviously at this point, not something you can get him to change.
I'm going to use the words of Dan Savage instead of my own, but I think the difference he outlines here is basically what we're going back and forth about:
"In a recent column you replied to This Boy Wonders regarding his fantasy to initiate oral sex with his sleeping wife. I have to take issue with one part of your response: "When it comes to long-term sex partners--particularly live-ins, husbands, and wives--a certain implied consent can be taken for granted… you wouldn't be the first married guy who initiated sex with his sleeping wife."
It's dangerous to talk about implied consent when it comes to married couples or long-term sex partners. Even if this man's wife would consent 99 percent of the time, if he tries to have sex and it's that 1 percent of the time when she wouldn't have consented, there is no consent. I agree that his fantasy would be OK if they talked about it ahead of time, as you recommended, I just wanted to caution you against advocating "implied consent." I work with domestic violence victims (mostly women) and I've heard many times from them of being forced to have sex because their abusers believed marriage implied lifelong consent.
Ana in Pennsylvania
Being forced to have sex--being raped by a spouse or a stranger--and being on the receiving end of an attempt to initiate sex by a long-term partner are two different things, AIP, and I was discussing the latter.
To clarify, when I wrote about "implied consent" this is what I was picturing: As much as I might like to, I would never approach a strange man, however attractive he might be, and shove my dick into the crack of his ass without first getting his explicit verbal consent. That would be sexual assault, and it would be wrong. But I do that sort of thing to my boyfriend, gosh, all the time. For the most part, my boyfriend welcomes my sexual advances, doll that he is, and on those occasions when he says no, I slink back to my side of the bed and read the National Review. Did I sexually assault him? No, I have his implied consent to initiate sex whenever I care to, just as he has my implied consent to do the same, and we both reserve the right to say no when we're not in the mood.
And it's that kind of consent--the consent to initiate, even if initiation takes a form that would be regarded as sexual assault if it were attempted on anyone else--that is frequently taken for granted in stable, long-term relationships like mine and TBW's. "