Call Me Maybe When Your School Loan Is Paid Off

[redheadbaker]

www.npr.org/2012/07/16/156736915/call-me-maybe-when-your-school-loan-is-paid-in-full

Call Me Maybe When Your School Loan Is Paid In Full

The increasing debt load of college graduates has affected young people's lives in untold ways, from career choices to living arrangements. Now add another impact on a key part of young adult life: dating and marriage.

Rachel Bingham, an art teacher in Portland, Maine, learned this a few years back, when a guy broke it off after four months of a budding relationship. Among other reasons, he cited her $80,000 in student loan debt.

"He said it scared him," she recalls, "that it really made him anxious. And he just did not want to take on my responsibility."

That made Bingham angry because she had never asked for his help. She says she has been very responsible, diligently making her loan payments.

"I was really floored at the time, because I just didn't consider that as a reason for someone to not be with someone else," she says. "I felt it was very shallow."

Bingham is now engaged to a man who's not scared off by her debt, but it turns out her ex-boyfriend was far from alone. The issue recently came up in a letter to an advice column at Nerve.com, a pop culture dating website. This time it was a woman wary of a serious relationship because her boyfriend has $150,000 in debt, mostly student loans.

"He was explaining his money stress to me," the woman wrote, "and I started crying because I saw the future I want falling away."

She wrote that she felt "embarrassed" about being so "selfish," and signed her letter, "Am I Being Awful?"

Caitlin Caven, who writes the site's Miss Information column, assured the woman that she's right to take a hard look at things. She suggested that a responsible approach to repayment is more important than the boyfriend's actual — admittedly staggering — amount of debt. Caven says readers also weighed in.

"There were a lot of people saying, 'Dump him, get out,' " she says. "And then there was a lot of backlash, saying, 'Hey, that's unfair. You guys are clearly not thinking about how student debt works in this country. So many people are in debt like that, that you can't just get rid of a good relationship because of it.' "

Caven advised the woman to keep her finances separate and consider a prenuptial agreement.

'An Impediment To Moving Forward'

When NPR asked about this issue on its Facebook page, many couples said they've avoided legal marriage so one partner wouldn't be liable for the other one's debt. In fact, responsibility for student loans does not transfer to a spouse. But, practically speaking?

"Well, once you're married, you're basically responsible for it at some level," says Bill Driscoll, a financial planner in Massachusetts. He sees the impact of student loan debt on his 30-something clients.

"It's causing uncertainty and tension," he says, "because it's an impediment to them moving forward on a lot of fronts."

Those include having a child or saving for college, saving for retirement and the biggie: buying a house.

"If they go to buy a home," says Driscoll, "and they've got $65,000 in student debt, that's going to undermine a lot of the possibilities for getting financing."

Driscoll says half of his clients don't see eye to eye when it comes to spending versus saving, so he advises hashing out a compromise plan. Mostly, he counsels couples to talk about financial problems early. But that can be hard to do.

Feeling A Stigma

"I just usually wait until it comes up and kind of clench my teeth," says

Craig Pfeister, a 29-year-old craftsman who makes guitars in Denver. He has north of $100,000 in student loans, and has grown used to the reaction that gets from dates.

"Generally, it starts with an awkward look, like, 'What have I gotten myself into?' " he says. Pfeister has come to realize that he's more comfortable dating women who also have lots of student debt.

"We can kind of laugh about it," he says, "like we're both owned by Sallie Mae. If they already have in their mind they'll have this debt for their entire life, when they hear about mine, it's just, 'Oh, you, too?' "

And if Pfeister ends up marrying more debt? Sure, it would add to his financial stress. But, he says, at least the stigma would not be just on him.

[AJL]

Rachel Bingham, an art teacher in Portland, Maine, learned this a few years back, when a guy broke it off after four months of a budding relationship. Among other reasons, he cited her $80,000 in student loan debt.

Why did she tell him about the SL debt at that point anyway?

I'm beginning to think that SL debt is the new herpes.

[IIOY]

I can't be mad at someone for choosing not to marry into that kind of debt, no matter how much theoretical pay-off there will be as a result of the degree(s) obtained. H had a relatively small amount of debt from his Ph.D studies and we specifically discussed the fact that he was going to pay that off before we got married. I can see someone looking at six figures of debt and being more than a little apprehensive.

[IIOY]

Jul 16, 2012 16:56:04 GMT -5 AJL said:

Rachel Bingham, an art teacher in Portland, Maine, learned this a few years back, when a guy broke it off after four months of a budding relationship. Among other reasons, he cited her $80,000 in student loan debt.

Why did she tell him about the SL debt at that point anyway?

I'm beginning to think that SL debt is the new herpes.

I was thinking it's the new "and what's YOUR number?"

[wawa]

Jul 16, 2012 16:56:04 GMT -5 AJL said:

Rachel Bingham, an art teacher in Portland, Maine, learned this a few years back, when a guy broke it off after four months of a budding relationship. Among other reasons, he cited her $80,000 in student loan debt.

Why did she tell him about the SL debt at that point anyway?

eh, I'd assume it just came up in conversation.
him: where'd you go to school,
her: Awesome State U!
him: oh did you like it?
her: sure, but I wish I didn't have the debt.
him: *flashing warning bells*

/scene

Something like that.

I don't think student loan debt would be a deal breaker if the person was paying it off in a timely fashion, and had the potential future income that it wouldn't be an undue burden. But 28 year old guitar maker with 100k+? Yeah....errrr...no. Not unless guitar craftsman is a more $$ career than i realize.

I like to think I'm not a total money whore, but I really can't imagine tying myself to somebody who would have that kind of financial millstone around their neck without a plan to deal with it.

[AJL]

Jul 16, 2012 16:58:40 GMT -5 IIOY said:

I was thinking it's the new "and what's YOUR number?"

That might be more accurate.

I don't fault someone for not wanting take on a ton a debt in their marriage. I can imagine it's hard to deal with. I don't have first hand experience because neither DH nor I had credit card or student loan debt when we met. He had a mortgage and we both had car loans, but those are in the "good debt" column, I guess.

Though even when I was dating and before I met DH, I never once thought about SL debt of any potential boyfriends.

[daniebob]

One of the reasons I waited so long to get my BA and MLIS was that I knew I'd have to borrow money to do it. I also come from a background of people who are not very good with money and I refused to end up in debt up to my eyeballs like them. I made sure to go to the most affordable school I could find and get as small of a student loan as possible so that I could afford the payments AND pay it off quickly if I needed to.

I don't understand people who borrow $50K+ to get an undergraduate degree. I wonder if they're even thinking about how they'll make the monthly payments and where they'll find a job once they're done with school. It just screams of poor decision making skills to me, especially since you can't get out of paying student loans unless you're dead or so disabled that you cannot work.

[basilosaurus]

Jul 16, 2012 17:57:24 GMT -5 daniebob said:

I don't understand people who borrow $50K+ to get an undergraduate degree. I wonder if they're even thinking about how they'll make the monthly payments and where they'll find a job once they're done with school. It just screams of poor decision making skills to me, especially since you can't get out of paying student loans unless you're dead or so disabled that you cannot work.

Because 18 year olds are known for their excellent decision making skills.

Plus, I don't think people get how overwhelming a monthly payment can be. They can't envision the decades to pay it off. I can't have been the only 18 year old who had inappropriate ideas about my salary on graduation.

FFS, when I was in my 1st job after college, we had an in service, and they brought in someone who ended up trying to sell us on college degrees, enticing us with income. Well, I had a degree, as did at least half my coworkers, and we were making less than what she said was expected for high school only. That was depressing (and also pointless).

[Deleted]

thankfully my DH took me. We had equal SL debt but his earning potential was and still is significantly higher. At least I make cute, smart babies.

[julief]

I agree with daniebob's second paragraph. I can't imagine tethering myself to someone who exhibits such dumb decision-making skills. I would worry about spending and habits beyond just student loan debt.

Seriously, that sort of debt can really impact a normal lifestyle... and I am very cheap. I am p.o.ed about DH's 5k loan for car payments. I can't imagine someone having six figures in school debt. That's really dumb unless of course it's med school or in the pursuit of a highly lucrative field.

I am definitely a saver. So's DH.

*I edited to correct a few stupid mistakes.

[interro]

While I wouldn't write someone off completely due to SL debt it would give me pause and there would need to be a clear picture of what those loans were for and how they were getting paid off. If it was like my XH, who became a perpetual student to escape real life and live I'm loans, and then lied to me for several years about his true debt load and career goals, well, I'm out.

Lots of my friends are totally the opposite and have embraced perpetual studenthood and taking on more SLs to defer their current SLs and their spouses are doing the same. I do not get it! And maybe IL too far in the opposite direction. The possibility of taking on debt I may be unable to repay is the only reason I haven't gone back to school yet. The career change I want to make would almost double my earning potential but without a clear picture of what I'll need to borrow and what repayment will look like I just can't pull the trigger.

[StrawberryBlondie]

I'd really hate it if someone thought my decision to go to law school in 10 years ago meant I had dumb decision-making skills based only on the fact that I have a lot of law school debt.

I do regret my decision to go to law school, but that's because I hated practicing.

[julief]

Of course, I am not referring to law school or medical school. I am referring to people who have undergrad debt and are going on to fields in which it will be difficult if not impossible to recoup the money.

[redheadbaker]

Jul 16, 2012 17:57:24 GMT -5 daniebob said:

I don't understand people who borrow $50K+ to get an undergraduate degree. I wonder if they're even thinking about how they'll make the monthly payments and where they'll find a job once they're done with school. It just screams of poor decision making skills to me, especially since you can't get out of paying student loans unless you're dead or so disabled that you cannot work.

$50,000 to the average 18-year-old might as well be Monopoly money, especially since they never physically "see" it.

My parents never went to college, and were no help in helping me figure out what I could "afford" (as they weren't helping me pay for it), what an average starting salary would be for my career, etc. I regret pretty much every decision I made regarding college (which one I chose, why I chose it, what I majored in, etc.).

It's really less than helpful when people are already in these situations, and people say, "Well what you SHOULD have done was X-Y-Z."

Yeah, great. How does that help them now?

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

Jul 16, 2012 19:02:20 GMT -5 redheadbaker said:

Jul 16, 2012 17:57:24 GMT -5 daniebob said:

I don't understand people who borrow $50K+ to get an undergraduate degree. I wonder if they're even thinking about how they'll make the monthly payments and where they'll find a job once they're done with school. It just screams of poor decision making skills to me, especially since you can't get out of paying student loans unless you're dead or so disabled that you cannot work.

$50,000 to the average 18-year-old might as well be Monopoly money, especially since they never physically "see" it.

My parents never went to college, and were no help in helping me figure out what I could "afford" (as they weren't helping me pay for it), what an average starting salary would be for my career, etc. I regret pretty much every decision I made regarding college (which one I chose, why I chose it, what I majored in, etc.).

It's really less than helpful when people are already in these situations, and people say, "Well what you SHOULD have done was X-Y-Z."

Yeah, great. How does that help them now?

Bolded. At 18, I had no idea what it would look like to pay off debt I was accumulating. I had no idea what those payments would be. I hope my future partner would understand it is MY debt, my responsibility to pay and that I don't want it to be what keeps me from being in a good relationship.

[daniebob]

Jul 16, 2012 18:09:24 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Plus, I don't think people get how overwhelming a monthly payment can be. They can't envision the decades to pay it off. I can't have been the only 18 year old who had inappropriate ideas about my salary on graduation.

You weren't the only 18 year old with a skewed sense of reality. I see crazy reasoning at my job all the time.

Maybe I was lucky that I had my FMIL there to guide me when it came to making student loan decisions - my mom was pretty useless with that (she took out $75K in loans to send my brother to culinary school with the thought that he'd take over the payments once he graduated. He didn't make enough money each month to make the payments... but that's another story). My FMIL told me to compare loan payments/schedule to what I'd make working a crappy retail job. She taught me to prepare for the worst by assuming that I wouldn't get an awesome job right out of college.

[daniebob]

Jul 16, 2012 18:31:46 GMT -5 julief said:

I agree with daniebob's second paragraph. I can't imagine tethering myself to someone who exhibits such dumb decision-making skills. I would worry about spending and habits beyond just student loan debt.

Seriously, that sort of debt can really impact a normal lifestyle... and I am very cheap. I am p.o.ed about DH's 5k loan for car payments. I can't imagine someone having six figures in school debt. That's really dumb unless of course it's med school or in the pursuit of a highly lucrative field.

I am definitely a saver. So's DH.

*I edited to correct a few stupid mistakes.

I agree - Something like law school or medical school makes sense when it comes to taking on a larger amount of debt. You'll at least have some hope of paying off the debt in your lifetime. Compare it to getting a bachelors in art history or liberal studies and that same amount of debt just doesn't compute for me.

[Deleted]

At 18, you don't realize how expensive things are. Even if you are one of the lucky few who had someone sit down and say "this is how much you will have to pay each month" it doesn't sink in. You might think, "ok, I have to pay 1000 a month. If I make 3000 a month, I will be fine! I can rent a place for 600 a month, and that leaves plenty for gas, utilites, and groceries."

Most 18 year olds don't think of all the other costs like insurance. Nor do they think ahead for their first major car repair or medical bill that puts them in to debt. Its more complicated than that, and most 18 year olds are too young to grasp it. I don't blame them.



That being said, huge debt of any kind might have been an early deal breaker for me. H does have some SL though.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

Yeah, I can also vouch for the fact that law school debt isn't necessarily a field where you can recoup that money. I guess if you go into big law or something, maybe. I married a public defender. The smartest financial decision we ever made was to NOT consolidate our debt together. Now my payments are income sensitive and his are too and it's much more feasible now that we are divorced.

[marie427]

You just never know how lucrative or unlucrative a career will be. If someone has a plan for repayment and is realistic with that plan, and if they've got a steady career that shows some promise (whatever that means to you individually), I can't see that being a dealbreaker. Then again, I did marry someone with roughly the same amount of SL debt, with both of us accruing our debts from undergrad and grad, but our careers are going pretty well. Maybe a debt-free guy wouldn't have been so kind.

[Deleted]

Next time we talk about student loans, I promise to rush in and post all of the anecdotal awesome/bad decision making stories so we can get them and all their bootstrapping glory over with from the jump.

And I'm with Marie and the others who mentioned that it's far more important what they are doing to address them than that they incurred them in the first place.

[druidp]

DH still sometimes jokes that he should have pulled my credit before we got married.
I just reply he's lucky I'm pulling anything at all, that night or ever, with comments like that. It also helps that I've made great strides in repairing my credit and paying it down, plus I make a pretty decent wage considering I never graduated with a degree.

[ttt]

Craig Pfeister, a 29-year-old craftsman who makes guitars in Denver. He has north of $100,000 in student loans, and has grown used to the reaction that gets from dates.
Ummm yeah....

How do you get $100k plus in student loans becoming a guitar maker? And he's 29 so he probably graduated high school around 2000 when college was a lot cheaper than today.

[Deleted]

ttt: I'm a year younger than that and plenty of my friends had over 100k in SL. It adds up fast. Even if tuition +room and board + fees+books =30,000 a year, you are there already. Then most of them also tacked on extra expenses because they were idiots, but that is neither here no there.

[SusanBAnthony]

I get it. Doesn't matter if it is SL debt or any other debt- I graduated college debt free (full ride scholarship, my parents hadn't saved a dime) and I had no interest in marrying someone with SL debt- or any other debt.

My sister is getting divorced. She also had no SL debt due to scholarships, but her STBX had a bunch for his english degree. Yes, they were his debts, but they spent 2 years living in a studio and eating rice and beans to pay them off- and now she is leaving the marriage with all that money gone to his loans.

[Chirp]

TTT - Schooling for instrument craftsmanship is fairly spendy. And if he's a musician he may have done a stint at Berklee... which is very spendy.

Wawa - It depends on his skill and reputation... he'll likely start out making peanuts, but some of the best guitar craftsman make $200k+. It all depends on the product they turn out and the demand.

[charminglife]

Jul 16, 2012 19:02:20 GMT -5 redheadbaker said:

Jul 16, 2012 17:57:24 GMT -5 daniebob said:

I don't understand people who borrow $50K+ to get an undergraduate degree. I wonder if they're even thinking about how they'll make the monthly payments and where they'll find a job once they're done with school. It just screams of poor decision making skills to me, especially since you can't get out of paying student loans unless you're dead or so disabled that you cannot work.

$50,000 to the average 18-year-old might as well be Monopoly money, especially since they never physically "see" it.

My parents never went to college, and were no help in helping me figure out what I could "afford" (as they weren't helping me pay for it), what an average starting salary would be for my career, etc. I regret pretty much every decision I made regarding college (which one I chose, why I chose it, what I majored in, etc.).

It's really less than helpful when people are already in these situations, and people say, "Well what you SHOULD have done was X-Y-Z."

Yeah, great. How does that help them now?

I completely agree with the bolded. When there's little guidance how do you expect an 18 year old to make good decisions?

[Deleted]

Jul 16, 2012 17:57:24 GMT -5 daniebob said:

I don't understand people who borrow $50K+ to get an undergraduate degree.

Really? Have you looked at the cost of education lately? A year of tuition, fees, books, and living expenses at the University of Wisconsin is ~$20,000. Most high school graduates can't find a job in a college town that allows them to pay cash for a degree. So if your parents aren't contributing, it's really not hard at all to spend $50,000 on an undergraduate degree.

We can talk until we're blue in the face about individual students making poor decisions, but as long as the cost of education is increasing exponentially faster than wages, nothing will change.

[ttt]

Jul 17, 2012 8:36:50 GMT -5 SusanBAnthony said:

I get it. Doesn't matter if it is SL debt or any other debt- I graduated college debt free (full ride scholarship, my parents hadn't saved a dime) and I had no interest in marrying someone with SL debt- or any other debt.

What if you hadn't been so fortunate as to have gotten a full ride scholarship? Very, very few students are lucky enough to get one.

[eclaires]

I guess MH missed the memo about dumping people with student loans. And technically he is the one paying them off right now since I SAH with our kids.

I was very smart about my loans (actually we were - we were already together when I started law school and took on loans - he had a good job and I only took out loans for my tuition so my loans are pretty low, relatively), but sometimes life happens in the form of two kids, a move to a different state, etc. I guess I'm lucky MH didn't kick me to the curb...