I don't understand people who borrow $50K+ to get an undergraduate degree. I wonder if they're even thinking about how they'll make the monthly payments and where they'll find a job once they're done with school. It just screams of poor decision making skills to me, especially since you can't get out of paying student loans unless you're dead or so disabled that you cannot work.
$50,000 to the average 18-year-old might as well be Monopoly money, especially since they never physically "see" it.
My parents never went to college, and were no help in helping me figure out what I could "afford" (as they weren't helping me pay for it), what an average starting salary would be for my career, etc. I regret pretty much every decision I made regarding college (which one I chose, why I chose it, what I majored in, etc.).
It's really less than helpful when people are already in these situations, and people say, "Well what you SHOULD have done was X-Y-Z."
Yeah, great. How does that help them now?
I agree with all of this.
DH and I met in grad school and have roughly equal amounts of SL debt. I carried his ass when he had just started working and was making peanuts, and now he is making more money. We accept that we need both of our incomes b/c of our SL debt.
I get it. Doesn't matter if it is SL debt or any other debt- I graduated college debt free (full ride scholarship, my parents hadn't saved a dime) and I had no interest in marrying someone with SL debt- or any other debt.
What if you hadn't been so fortunate as to have gotten a full ride scholarship? Very, very few students are lucky enough to get one.
the reactions here are confusing me.
Just using susanB here as an example - ok, so she's limiting her pool of potential mates to people with full ride scholarships, small enough loans that they've already been paid off, or who had parents that paid their way. This might be a small pool. But that's not really a bad thing as long as she's not also running around whining about the lack of potential mates.
Nobody is saying that people with SL debt are bad people. (well, at least most of us aren't) Just that we don't want to marry them.
I think picky eaters can be fantastic people. I wouldn't want to marry one. I think the devoutly religious can be wonderful people. I don't want to marry them. And I think that perfectly delightful people can be buried under a mound of debt - but I don't want to marry them.
yes, my pool of eligible life mates is MUCH smaller than the pool of people I judge to be ok human beings with reasonable adult decision making skills. That sounds like an ok thing to me. Other people will have other criteria - that sounds like an ok thing to me too. I don't think people who marry people with loads of debt are foolish, just like I don't think jenniloveselvis is dumb for marrying a picky eater or septimus's husband is shortsighted for marrying somebody with SL debt.
So...does it make me a selfish jerk that I'd dump a guy for being a picky eater and a devout catholic with 100k of debt?
I can't be mad at someone for choosing not to marry into that kind of debt, no matter how much theoretical pay-off there will be as a result of the degree(s) obtained. H had a relatively small amount of debt from his Ph.D studies and we specifically discussed the fact that he was going to pay that off before we got married. I can see someone looking at six figures of debt and being more than a little apprehensive.
Post by charminglife on Jul 17, 2012 9:48:45 GMT -5
I've been thinking more about this thread and how it relates to a close friend of mine. She did her UG studies at a private liberal arts school and had to take out about $40k (10k per year, the rest was covered by school grants/scholarships as she had no parental assistance). Though that sounds expensive, she priced it out compared to her state school and she would have been taking on comparable debt as the state school didn't have the resources to offer her generous aid.
She just finished medical school and now her debt total for two degrees is over $250k. I don't even know how you tackle that amount of debt, especially since she's going into primary care - but I also don't know how else she could have gotten her education without going into debt like this.
What if you hadn't been so fortunate as to have gotten a full ride scholarship? Very, very few students are lucky enough to get one.
the reactions here are confusing me.
Just using susanB here as an example - ok, so she's limiting her pool of potential mates to people with full ride scholarships, small enough loans that they've already been paid off, or who had parents that paid their way. This might be a small pool. But that's not really a bad thing as long as she's not also running around whining about the lack of potential mates.
Nobody is saying that people with SL debt are bad people. (well, at least most of us aren't) Just that we don't want to marry them.
I think picky eaters can be fantastic people. I wouldn't want to marry one. I think the devoutly religious can be wonderful people. I don't want to marry them. And I think that perfectly delightful people can be buried under a mound of debt - but I don't want to marry them.
yes, my pool of eligible life mates is MUCH smaller than the pool of people I judge to be ok human beings with reasonable adult decision making skills. That sounds like an ok thing to me. Other people will have other criteria - that sounds like an ok thing to me too. I don't think people who marry people with loads of debt are foolish, just like I don't think jenniloveselvis is dumb for marrying a picky eater or septimus's husband is shortsighted for marrying somebody with SL debt.
So...does it make me a selfish jerk that I'd dump a guy for being a picky eater and a devout catholic with 100k of debt?
Pretty much. I made a decision in high school to go to the in state school with low tuition and a good but not great reputation, so that even if I lost my scholarship the tuition wouldn't kill me. I made a choice to major in engineering, which I was good at but not passionate about, to have a well paying career. I made lots of financial choices to set myself up for life the way I wanted to.
I am very very sympathetic about the rising costs of college. It is insane and very upsetting to me. But I do think that it is crazy to go more than maybe 50K in debt for undergrad, no matter what your major is. Just a personal line I have. I am not going to date plenty of people for plenty of reasons, and high debt happens to be one of them.
DH had undergrad SL's, that his grandpa paid off for him. I have told him that I probably wouldn't have stayed with him had they not been paid off- they were the result of stupid financial decisions on his part, and at 22, I had plenty of time to find someone who had a better financial picture- sorry, but thats important to me. I grew up poor-ish, and one of my major goals as a teenager and young adult was to set myself up to not be poor as an adult.
I guess as long as you don't judge people who say "I'm not interested in marrying anyone who doesn't have a large trust fund" or "I would never marry anyone who doesn't make at least $250k a year" then it makes sense.
I mean, people without large inheritances can be perfectly great people but I wouldn't want to marry one.
I guess as long as you don't judge people who say "I'm not interested in marrying anyone who doesn't have a large trust fund" or "I would never marry anyone who doesn't make at least $250k a year" then it makes sense.
I mean, people without large inheritances can be perfectly great people but I wouldn't want to marry one.
I guess as long as you don't judge people who say "I'm not interested in marrying anyone who doesn't have a large trust fund" or "I would never marry anyone who doesn't make at least $250k a year" then it makes sense.
I mean, people without large inheritances can be perfectly great people but I wouldn't want to marry one.
yeah, ok ttt. totally the same thing.
Why is it different? It's basically saying you don't want to sacrifice a certain kind of lifestyle by marrying someone whose financial situation wouldn't allow you that lifestyle.
Why is it different? It's basically saying you don't want to sacrifice a certain kind of lifestyle by marrying someone whose financial situation wouldn't allow you that lifestyle.
If you want to simplfy it that far, then sure they're the same thing. Just like somebody who insists on a mate they are sexually attracted to is the same thing as the guy who only dates supermodels.
I'm defining my required lifestyle as basic stuff like being able to put some money into savings, contribute to a retirement account, not eat ramen all the time, buy a house in the relatively near future (or comfortably pay rent in a nice area), and afford kids.
Normal middle class stuff.
If the debt is managable enough not to interfere with that kind of thing, then i don't give a shit. But if it does...well then yes it's a deal breaker. My friend who has been married for 4 years, but is holding off on kids for at least another 5 years because they can't afford daycare and his loans at the same time? That fucking sucks. I'd really have thought twice about that.
I think people have the right to have mate preferences and I totally get exorbitant debt being a dealbreaker, but I think anyone who has this same preference to not marry anyone with SL debt and happens to be about 20-25 years old or younger may have slim pickins.
I still contend though that having a plan for payment allows for this to not be a dealbreaker for me (plus the fact that I do still have SL debt myself). If someone doesn't give a shit about their loans and doesn't care to do anything about them, then that does speak volumes about their financial future. But if someone says, "Yeah, I was dumb, I took out all these loans for college that I regret but I've been making automatic payments on them and they should be paid off by X date unless I can free up more money by that point, here's what I'm working towards in my career blah blah blah..." then I guess I still don't see this as a dealbreaker.
I think people have the right to have mate preferences but I think anyone who has this same preference to not marry anyone with SL debt and happens to be about 20-25 years old or younger may have slim pickins.
I still contend that having a plan for payment allows for this to not be a dealbreaker for me (plus the fact that I do still have SL debt myself). If someone doesn't give a shit about their loans and doesn't care to do anything about them, then that does speak volumes about their financial future. But if someone says, "Yeah, I was dumb, I took out all these loans for college that I regret but I've been making automatic payments on them and they should be paid off by X date unless I can free up more money by that point, blah blah blah..." then I guess I still don't see this as a dealbreaker.
Maybe this wasn't clear, but this is actually where I am at too. A plan for repayment and a reasonable timeline for that = I'm cool. The casual acceptance that Sallie Mae owns you for life with no plan to make that go away? yeaaaaahhh...no.
I see what you're saying - I was speaking more towards those who say they would never marry someone with debt, period, regardless of the amount or circumstances.
I don't understand people who borrow $50K+ to get an undergraduate degree.
Really? Have you looked at the cost of education lately? A year of tuition, fees, books, and living expenses at the University of Wisconsin is ~$20,000. Most high school graduates can't find a job in a college town that allows them to pay cash for a degree. So if your parents aren't contributing, it's really not hard at all to spend $50,000 on an undergraduate degree.
We can talk until we're blue in the face about individual students making poor decisions, but as long as the cost of education is increasing exponentially faster than wages, nothing will change.
This is so great. ITA.
I only owed ~$12K after college, but that's only because I qualified for a lot of scholarships and grants. If I had only been eligible for loans, I'd owe at least triple that amount. To boot, my current employer hasn't given anyone a raise in the past 3 years. I've been trying to find a better job, but public school positions in IL are almost impossible to come by.
Something is seriously skewed with the system...college is becoming so expensive, only the wealthy and poor (who will get a free ride based on economic need) will be able to attend soon.
For shits and grins I checked two schools in my state. I used an undergrad Engineering degree and both include tuition, room and board, meal plan and mandatory fees. This does not include books, transportation or personal expenses.
University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg State school, obviously affiliated with Pitt (most state schools are affiliated with either Pitt or PennState). $30k per year.
Gettysburg College Private school, modestly sized and modestly appointed campus (I'm personally familiar with this school). $55k per year. There's a note on their website that 70% of students are able to obtain financial aid amounting to $33k per year. So even if you're one of those 70%, that still leaves $22k per year.
Or, you can start out at a community college and transfer after 2 years... HACC (Harrisburg Area Community College) is $2,000/semester, not including books.
So say you go to HACC for 2 years, transfer to Gettysburg (being one of those lucky 70% with $33k in financial aid) for the last two... that's still $52k for a BS in Engineering. That doesn't include the cost of books, transportation, etc. So tack on at least a few grand for those items.
I can't imagine how a student graduates with less than $50k in debt.
TTT: I'm defending people with SLs but I don't think your comparision works.
One is looking for someone to take care of you financially (only dating rich people). The other is simply not wanting to have to take care of someone else financially, especially if they've made the choice to go into a non-lucrative job with that much debt (more the reference to the example in the OP than the vast majority of those with SL).
H has SLs. We pay them off together. He is financially responsible and works hard, as most of those with SLs do. Unfortunately, as well all know, many get screwed and end up in really crappy situations in spite of that effort. However, I would not have wanted to saddle myself to someone who was purposefully just floating around following the (non paying) dream while SLs piled up. I'm not going to commit to a life of paying off their debts while they follow their dreams.
But alas, as usual, these sorts of articles pick the non sympathetic extremes.(the craftsman who has 100k in debt and is purposefully trying to date others with debt)
Actually this is where I'm at. I can't see taking something like this in a vacuum. I'm an insanely practical person, especially about money, and I'm married to an insanely practical person. So I can't see where a potential mate would otherwise totally click with me on a practical how-we-manage-our-lives basis, but be way off base on SLs.
I learned not to make any hard and fast rules about who I would/not marry when I started dating a football player.
I graduated with 30k in debt. I pay $400 a month to student loans. It's never been a big deal to me. Without my degree, I'd be making a hell of a lot less than I do now. So paying the $400 a month, I still come out way ahead. Are other people's monthly payments that high?
To me there is a world of difference between someone who has student loan debt and someone who has credit card debt. I'd avoid the guy with 50k in credit card debt but debt from going to college? I can't imagine. Call me shallow but give me the guy with student loan debt any day over the guy with no debt and no education what so ever. I take it the people who'd only date those who are debt free would be fine if the person didn't have a degree at all? Or do you want someone who is educated as well as debt free? Because in my experience, those are the 1%-ers. Nice if you could find it, but I wouldn't narrow my choices down.
Honestly as I was reading about the guy dumping the woman with SL debt all I could think was, he just wasn't that into her.
I graduated with 30k in debt. I pay $400 a month to student loans. It's never been a big deal to me. Without my degree, I'd be making a hell of a lot less than I do now. So paying the $400 a month, I still come out way ahead. Are other people's monthly payments that high?
To me there is a world of difference between someone who has student loan debt and someone who has credit card debt. I'd avoid the guy with 50k in credit card debt but debt from going to college? I can't imagine. Call me shallow but give me the guy with student loan debt any day over the guy with no debt and no education what so ever. I take it the people who'd only date those who are debt free would be fine if the person didn't have a degree at all? Or do you want someone who is educated as well as debt free? Because in my experience, those are the 1%-ers. Nice if you could find it, but I wouldn't narrow my choices down.
Honestly as I was reading about the guy dumping the woman with SL debt all I could think was, he just wasn't that into her.
This is where I am.
Your monthly payment depends on a lot of things. I had more SL debt than you, but my payments were half yours because I consolidated at a ridiculously low rate back in 2005. But if you weren't lucky enough to win the interest rate game, your payments might be much higher.
I graduated with 30k in debt. I pay $400 a month to student loans. It's never been a big deal to me. Without my degree, I'd be making a hell of a lot less than I do now. So paying the $400 a month, I still come out way ahead. Are other people's monthly payments that high?
My husband and I pay a combined ~$15,000 per year in SLs. Since most of my loans came from law school, it's really hard for me to say that I'd be making a lot less than if I didn't have the loans. If I'd gotten an entry level job when I was 22 instead of going to law school, I'd have 8 years of experience and would likely be making as much as I do now. At a minimum, I think my income would be higher than my current income minus my current student loan payment.
I picked my monthly payment. I think I could have gotten them lower but I just want to get the payments done.
I just don't understand the drama of those talking about being buried in debt. The payments aren't that high to me. In my area, if you don't have a degree, you are making minimum wage at some shit job with no health care and no benefits and barely living above poverty level. The ONLY people I know who aren't scraping are the ones who have some type of education, and with that, SL debt. Like I said, give me my debt with my salary any day. I can't imagine penalizing a person for having SL debt because that's basically saying they had the nerve to want an education without having a free ride scholarship or rich parents. And paying off college while working so you graduate debt free? LOL! Sure on a 10 year plan, I'm sure that could happen.
I just don't understand the drama of those talking about being buried in debt.
Well here, I'll help you understand.
I spent three years bringing home about $2800/month from a job that offered no benefits, and I had student loan payments in excess of $750/month. And it certainly wasn't for lack of trying to find a higher-paying job. Wouldn't you feel buried in debt?
I graduated with 30k in debt. I pay $400 a month to student loans. It's never been a big deal to me. Without my degree, I'd be making a hell of a lot less than I do now. So paying the $400 a month, I still come out way ahead. Are other people's monthly payments that high?
My husband and I pay a combined ~$15,000 per year in SLs. Since most of my loans came from law school, it's really hard for me to say that I'd be making a lot less than if I didn't have the loans. If I'd gotten an entry level job when I was 22 instead of going to law school, I'd have 8 years of experience and would likely be making as much as I do now. At a minimum, I think my income would be higher than my current income minus my current student loan payment.
That really sucks that you could be making as much without school. But I know from this board how law school is such a toss up as to whether it's worth it to go or not. I guess I can see that for some people their debt doesn't put them ahead. I just can't imagine not having had the experience of college and my education. There is no trade that I'm good at. I could never be a carpenter or contractor of some sort. I'd be a cashier somewhere most likely. That scares me more than my debt does. But then again, in my mind student loans, car and mortgage debt are okay. I couldn't handle credit card debt like I used to have. THAT weighed on me. But student loans, meh.
I just don't understand the drama of those talking about being buried in debt.
Well here, I'll help you understand.
I spent three years bringing home about $2800/month from a job that offered no benefits, and I had student loan payments in excess of $750/month. And it certainly wasn't for lack of trying to find a higher-paying job. Wouldn't you feel buried in debt?
Absolutely. But that's what I address in my other post. From what I learned here debt from law school is NOT 40-50k. I mean, for your payments to be $750 a month, that's a lot of debt. That's not typical 4 year degree debt. It's the 4 year degree/50k debt that I don't see as a big deal. If a person's montly payment is so high that they would have been better off with NO education at all, then I'm thinking they picked the wrong major. One that wasn't worth the price of education (BA in psych from Harvard) Which happens but that' a whole other issue.
It's the 4 year degree/50k debt that I don't see as a big deal. If a person's montly payment is so high that they would have been better off with NO education at all, then I'm thinking they picked the wrong major.
The issue isn't so much that people would be better off with no education but that the education isn't offering them the life they were told would happen.
The simple fact is that the return on investment for education is decreasing. Yes, college grads on the whole still earn more than those without a college degree. But wages aren't rising to keep up. So 20 years ago, someone landed a $30,000/year job right out of undergrad and had $10,000 in loans to pay back. Now, people are graduating with $50,000 in loans but still only have that $30,000 job.
It's the 4 year degree/50k debt that I don't see as a big deal. If a person's montly payment is so high that they would have been better off with NO education at all, then I'm thinking they picked the wrong major.
The issue isn't so much that people would be better off with no education but that the education isn't offering them the life they were told would happen.
The simple fact is that the return on investment for education is decreasing. Yes, college grads on the whole still earn more than those without a college degree. But wages aren't rising to keep up. So 20 years ago, someone landed a $30,000/year job right out of undergrad and had $10,000 in loans to pay back. Now, people are graduating with $50,000 in loans but still only have that $30,000 job.
I agree that the rising cost of education versus the payback is not what it was 20 -30 years ago. I do believe that for the most part, those with education come out ahead. Maybe not as ahead as they would have in 1985, but ahead of the person with nothing.
Now making better choices? Yes I agree that high schools and colleges fail students here. You are promised a whole bill of goods that doesn't deliver. If you are walking out of school with 50k in debt for a degree in French poetry and then scratching your head wondering why you can't find a high paying job....then yeah, something is amiss.
I just know growing up in Florida, in a very conservative, religious area, if a person didn't go to college, they were settled down and married by 18-19 and had 2 or 3 kids by the time they were 22. If nothing else, going to college pulled me out of that cycle. My debt was worth not marrying my high school boyfriend alone, never mind the college experience and the degree I walked away with. None would have happened without debt. So I love the shit out of my debt. Seriously.
But I do think that a lot could be said for picking the right college, the right major more wisely. Absolutely.
I agree that the rising cost of education versus the payback is not what it was 20 -30 years ago. I do believe that for the most part, those with education come out ahead. Maybe not as head as they would have in 1985, but ahead of the person with nothing.
I will be interested to see the statistics 20 years from now.
I agree that the rising cost of education versus the payback is not what it was 20 -30 years ago. I do believe that for the most part, those with education come out ahead. Maybe not as head as they would have in 1985, but ahead of the person with nothing.
I will be interested to see the statistics 20 years from now.
Probably will be worse than now. What the heck do you do? There are choices that can eliminate some debt (community college for freshman/sophmore year and transferring, picking a school in state rather than out, doing research on your major to be sure it's actually useful) but beyond that, most people are facing some debt in exchange for education. It sucks.
I read an interesting comment on an article that talked about Republicans wanting to raise the interest rates on Stafford loans from 3 to 6%. The comment was that maybe this will deter many people from going to college which will in turn, make a degree more valuable. I honestly don't know what to think of that. I always thought it was good for people to have a degree of some sort but it has raised the bar now.
I agree that the rising cost of education versus the payback is not what it was 20 -30 years ago. I do believe that for the most part, those with education come out ahead. Maybe not as head as they would have in 1985, but ahead of the person with nothing.
I will be interested to see the statistics 20 years from now.
I think we are starting to see the effects already. Affluent parents with degrees with good colleges are starting to tell their kids, look at the local state school or CC instead of Wesleyan, Smith, SMU, etc. especially if the kid wants to be a teacher, accountant or almost anything non doctor/lawyer/investment banker.