I don't want it to be portrayed like I (and maybe others) want this and that status symbol of a middle class lifestyle. I don't say, "Oh, I wouldn't saddle myself with debt" so that I can get some fancy car, lavish house, the latest technology, etc.
I just look at an amount of debt that I consider beyond the pale and life-altering in the negative, like $80,000. For every hardworking person who has a great plan for paying off debt, there's a profligate spender living beyond his or her means. I would not trust someone who didn't have a plan for paying off the debt.
The typical American story is not that of people who pay off their debt faithfully and follow sound financial advice. The typical American story is the accumulation of debt in every area of life, from car payments to house payments to putting vacations on layaway to crazy credit card debt... and it goes on and on. Obviously, house payments are in a different category, but even the down payment can be bigger to help pay it off.
I think it is important to not have a lot of debt, especially not a huge amount like 80k that would take some time to pay off. Keep in mind, 80k goes a long way in my LCOL area. I think that for people who have a median home price in their area of 350k, the 80,000 or a number like that would be a lot less daunting.
I would not trust someone who didn't have a plan for paying off the debt.
Is this an option though? Not snarky, a serious question. Do they allow people to just not pay off debt? I had to pick a monthly amount and actually pay it. Are there other options? Because having a plan for paying the debt sounds like something not optional to me.
But Julief I agree that debt can be crippling. So to me, college debt is like house debt. Choose it wisely. You may want the huge house with 3 car garage in the best neighborhood. Your budget tells you that you should get the mid sized house that's still 1980s inside. Same with college. You may want to move out of Nebraska and live in Boston right out of high school and attend the best university your grades will allow but what's a realistic budget? If mom and dad aren't paying your way and you don't have a scholarship and you know that you are going to be footing the entire college bill at the end, then you need to pick another option.
I just don't think that not going to college at all should be that option. But believe me a lot of people will read this article and walk away thinking that college is a waste of money. It's not. Certain colleges are above your budget and are a waste of money. Certain degrees are useless unless you are a trust fund baby. Pick a cheaper option and put more research into your major.
I'm not one to think that everyone has to go to college. I know there are people with trades that do just fine. I just value education and if someone is smart and wants to go to college, I'd hate to see something like their parents' finances stopping them.
Maybe it's because my husband is the anecdotal story of this thread. He started out working part time paying school with his parents helping. He dropped out after 2 semesters. To this day, he deeply regrets it. And I mean deeply. He has 12 years in his field and it destroys him to see a job posting that he'd excel at but it reqires a 4 year degree. He thinks of all the opportunities he could have had, the people he could have met, and the jobs he could have applied for but can't. He didn't even think of student loans at the time. He just thought, "I can't afford college, so I can't go."
So I think a lot of these articles should focus on making better college and major choices, more so than student loan debt=bad, bad, bad.
If an overpriced education is the worst financial choice you make in your lifetime, you aren't doing so bad, imo. A freakin' new Ford F-150 pickup truck is the cost of an education. Ask me how I know!
In NJ a state school is about 27,000. Most middle class kids get no financial aid ( at least not mine). So, what are their options? don't go to school, or have SL debt. I am currently having an ongoing argument with one of my 17 year old twins who wants to go out of state for a degree in communcations. I told her it will never happen. At 40,000 and above, no aid, and probably no scholarships I will not allow it. I don't care if she hates me for the next 10 years.
I'll be honest. The thought of $80,000 makes me want to +o(
I highly doubt I would be okay with that amount of debt (other than a mortgage). I would had to have been completely smitten by then to even consider that (hence, my comment he wasn't that into her).
Between the two of us, there was only a small mortgage. We had older cars/paid off our car loans and we had already paid off our student loans. Then again, we were in our late 30's by the time we met....ah, one of the benefits of getting married later in life.
Re. The pearl clutching over the "poor decisions making skills" of a 22 year who comes out of college $50 k in debt...
Two words:
TUITION INCREASES
Ca schools are facing a 20% increase. Next year. Alone. On top of ALL the other tuition increases over the past few years.
FFS.
But yes. Stoooopid kids.
Yeah, this piece has to be factored in too. In the four years I was an undergrad, my university hiked tuition four times. The amount I started off paying as a freshman was quite a bit less than the amount I was paying by the time I was a senior. I can only assume it's continued to go up every year since I graduated.
I agree that the rising cost of education versus the payback is not what it was 20 -30 years ago. I do believe that for the most part, those with education come out ahead. Maybe not as ahead as they would have in 1985, but ahead of the person with nothing.
Now making better choices? Yes I agree that high schools and colleges fail students here. You are promised a whole bill of goods that doesn't deliver. If you are walking out of school with 50k in debt for a degree in French poetry and then scratching your head wondering why you can't find a high paying job....then yeah, something is amiss.
I just know growing up in Florida, in a very conservative, religious area, if a person didn't go to college, they were settled down and married by 18-19 and had 2 or 3 kids by the time they were 22. If nothing else, going to college pulled me out of that cycle. My debt was worth not marrying my high school boyfriend alone, never mind the college experience and the degree I walked away with. None would have happened without debt. So I love the shit out of my debt. Seriously.
But I do think that a lot could be said for picking the right college, the right major more wisely. Absolutely.
This board has discussed before that there isn't really a way to "research" your prospective major.
I entered college and "graphic design" was the hot major, the "in demand" profession, with seniors getting offers of $60K per year after graduation.
By the time I graduated, the market was saturated and all I could find (without moving, which was not feasible for me) was a job laying out newsletters for $24K a year.
Obviously, jobs for majors in French poetry are likely never going to be "in demand," but I'm pretty sure those who major in things like that know that their job prospects are dim. A friend of mine majored in something to do with soil studies, and knew ahead of time her job options would be limited.
redheadbaker I see what you are saying but I think part of researching is knowing that what's the "hot" career of the moment is a risk.
I think the risk factor should be based on the person's financial situation going in. Parents are loaded? Then by all means take the artsy -fartsy major at top tier school. For some people, making money from their degree is not that important.
If you are going to take on debt, then pick something safer like something in business or engineering.
Now believe me, I know this is much easier said than done. My undergrad was also a "hot" major and there would be oh so many jobs upon graduation. I realized half way through that the only problem was I hated my major and the plethora of jobs upon graduation paid shit. So I went back to grad school and tried again. This time I was happy.
I don't believe in chastising people for what they should have done. I am firmly in the camp of be happy you have a degree at all. Yes, there are a dozen things most of us could have done better, but we came out with an education.
In response to 2Vermont, while debt makes me want to hurl, the thought of no education makes me want to hurl more. So you have to pick your poison I guess.
While there's nothing we can do, I am hopeful that some strides are being made for the next generation of college students to make better choices that will hopefully leave them with less debt.
Post by basilosaurus on Jul 17, 2012 21:45:24 GMT -5
Or you could start in a generally lucrative major like I did (engineering) and after 2 years realize you hate it and are at risk of failing out. So do you transfer schools, still having to pay those 2 years? Do you stay in the same school incurring debt in a field you want that doesn't have the same earning potential? Do you just quit?
How many kids really know what job-oriented major they're going to be in when they start? And I also kind of reject that those majors are the only way to make college worthwhile. My friends with art history or poli sci degrees got jobs faster and at higher salaries than I with my piddly biology degree.
There is no way to know for sure how much money a person will make, how quick they'll be able to find a job and most importantly, how happy they'll be in that job. It's all a gamble. But there are certainly majors that are more of a gamble than others. But Sibil, I don't think you'd have been better off with no degree at all. Don't you? A different degree, sure, maybe. But we're talking having debt or no debt. The only safe way to not have SL debt is to either have parents foot the bill, take 10 years to finish college while working and paying for it all, or don't go. It seems that debt is inevitable for most people. If I had a kid, I'd be able to help pay for school but if I had 3 or 4 kids, I wouldn't. So I'd do my best to drill into their heads to understand they'd have debt after college, pick a career wisely, and strongly consider community college for 2 years and look at less expensive universities.
Another thing that I'd want to do is encourage them to work, volunteer, or intern for a year and try to get a better feel of what they wanted to do before going to college. I wanted to do this and so many people said, no. "If you don't go to college right after high school you'll never go." I don't know if that would have been true if I took even just 6 months to get some experience. Because how could an 18 year old who's only lived with their parents know what they want to do the rest of their life? I think most people would make different choices if they had a do over. I just think we beat ourselves up a lot of times when really the degree holders here should be pretty proud, IMO. Especially those who went to law school. I always did well in school but I know there's no way I'd get into law school let alone graduate. As corny as it sounds, be proud of your accomplishments. Just hope future kids make better financial choices. I don't know what else a person could do.
Are they still giving out credit cards like candy on campuses? I got suckered 20 years ago and THAT debt haunted me for years.
In response to 2Vermont, while debt makes me want to hurl, the thought of no education makes me want to hurl more. So you have to pick your poison I guess.
Although I did not rule out a man without a higher education (for example, I dated a firefighter), I can understand the value of higher education (as I have a Master's). For me, the debt is not so much a reflection of the man however (unless it's credit card debt...which also may not be a reflection on him). Whereas it sounds like education is a reflection of the man for you. Debt makes me sick to my stomach whether it's mine or someone else's that could become mine.
I really feel for the younger kids these days, however, because college is exhorbitant. It's almost a damned if you do, damned if you don't environment. I honestly don't know what I would do if I was just starting out now. It's certainly one of the reasons why I would never consider going back to school at this point to get another degree.
Well debt and no education are things that would have made me hesitant. Yet I didn't marry a 1%er. I married a guy who grew up sandwiched between cattle farms and the amish and whose dad is a mechanic. Neither of his parents have college degrees. He does has a small SL left. But he also has a Masters.
Those things were not deal breakers, just things that made me nervous. But they aren't things that mean you are only looking for a 1%er, either.
Well debt and no education are things that would have made me hesitant. Yet I didn't marry a 1%er. I married a guy who grew up sandwiched between cattle farms and the amish and whose dad is a mechanic. Neither of his parents have college degrees. He does has a small SL left. But he also has a Masters.
Those things were not deal breakers, just things that made me nervous. But they aren't things that mean you are only looking for a 1%er, either.
I think age is a factor here. If your DH has a masters and his loans are almost paid, then it sounds like he's at least in his 30s. I'm 40 so if I was single and marrying a guy well into his 40s who has barely chiseled away at his debt, I'd want to know why. There's a big difference between someone who is working to pay off their debt, is responsible, and working a job that that they otherwise wouldn't have had if not for the student loans,
Versus
meeting a guy who has shit-ton of debt, but is a college drop out because he partied too much. Now he makes $10 an hour but has 50k in student loans.
I mean, the scenarios run the gamut here. It's not black and white. I've known quite a few guys who had no debt. They also had no credit history at all. They didn't have a car, they didn't have savings, they had nothing. So I don't equate no debt with living the high life or being responsible. At all.
I had the epiphany reading this yesterday how we just financed a Ford F-150. You would never look at a F-150 on the road and think, "Wow, look at Mr. Fancypants there living the good life." It's a truck like 1000 other trucks you'll see on the road. People will think nothing of financing a car, but will hem-haw over paying the money for an education. People like my cousin will talk about how they don't know how they will pay for their kids' education but they just got back from a Disney cruise. Don't get me started on the ridiculous amount of money spent on weddings. A friend of mine said her parents told her they could pay for college or a wedding. They didn't have the money for both. She picked college. 4 years of experiences and an education was worth more to her than one day of a big party. I think she chose wisely. It's all about priorities. I hope something can be done to change this cycle moving forward. It's a shame when people like my DH who was basically a Sheldon Cooper born into a poor family, miss out on education because of lack of money. My DH would much rather be paying $300 a month in loans than playing the "if only" game every day.
Sorry I need to shut up about this. I just hate to see people criticized for something like student loans. There are a thousand worse ways to spend one's money.