The problem with sociopaths (or psychopaths, if you prefer that term) is that they are incredibly talented at manipulating and deceiving mental health professionals. That's what makes them so dangerous. Sociopaths CAN'T be rehabilitated.
Okay, I'm not an expert, but from everything I've read on the natter this isn't actually true - it's just tv-true.
Post by wrathofkuus on Jun 5, 2014 23:18:18 GMT -5
Not YET, you can't. But I was talking about the super intelligence, able to fool people who are practiced and trained in that very subject. That doesn't appear to be true in real life, generally.
I have zero problem with them being tried as adults. Obviously they will go to jail for a few years,tried either way, but this way the records will never be sealed
If there is mental illness involved (and the slenderman bits of the story damn sure point to that IMO) they don't belong in jail, period.
Outside of that fact, I also don't believe 12 year olds should be incarcerated in the same place as adults - be it an institution or jail. I'm not saying they should be let out, but they aren't adults and shouldn't be treated as if they were.
I hope they end up in a psychiatric facility that can at least attempt to help them. 6 years is long enough to hope for a positive outcome.
Outside of that fact, I also don't believe 12 year olds should be incarcerated in the same place as adults - be it an institution or jail. I'm not saying they should be let out, but they aren't adults and shouldn't be treated as if they were.
Well, being tried as adults isn't the same thing as being sentenced as adults.
Believe me.. The "being tried as an adult" thing is not because they think a 12 year old can understand their actions.. rather, it's more to do with the law and the future of that child. Meaning, psychiatric help beyond the 18th birthday, no closed records, longer sentences (in psychiatric care).
We tend to think adult = hard prison time.. when in fact, it's more of a technicality.
These kids need more help than the juvenile court can provide.
The bolded does make sense. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the US justice system so I may take terms like "tried like adults" more literally than they are meant.
Post by W.T.Faulkner on Jun 6, 2014 7:34:19 GMT -5
Yesterday I witnessed a very intelligent 12 year-old put a hot dog in a textbook and then close it "just to see what would happen." Cognitively, there is an ocean of difference between 12 year-olds and adults; the research on adolescent development and decision-making is ample. Hell, even I, at 25, have JUST RECENTLY reached the "adult stage" of brain development.
To try two 12 year-olds as adults would be irresponsible on our parts as a justice system. I understand the appeal of keeping their records open, but unless these girls change their names and start over completely, given the sensational nature of the case, I doubt anyone would ever forget what happened.
If there is mental illness involved (and the slenderman bits of the story damn sure point to that IMO) they don't belong in jail, period.
Outside of that fact, I also don't believe 12 year olds should be incarcerated in the same place as adults - be it an institution or jail. I'm not saying they should be let out, but they aren't adults and shouldn't be treated as if they were.
I hope they end up in a psychiatric facility that can at least attempt to help them. 6 years is long enough to hope for a positive outcome.
It's just very sad for all the families involved.
They wouldn't be incarcerated with adults. At least they shouldn't be. They would be in a juvenile facility. As far as mental illness, there are times when people are mentally ill and they still know the behavior they are doing is wrong. I have no clue what test the state these girls live in uses, but a lot of states look at whether the claimant knew what they were doing was wrong. If the mental illness was so great they had no appreciation of criminality of the act then hospitalizations may be appropriate. But if mental illness just made them not care then jail may be appropriate. If that makes sense.
If there is mental illness involved (and the slenderman bits of the story damn sure point to that IMO) they don't belong in jail, period.
Outside of that fact, I also don't believe 12 year olds should be incarcerated in the same place as adults - be it an institution or jail. I'm not saying they should be let out, but they aren't adults and shouldn't be treated as if they were.
I hope they end up in a psychiatric facility that can at least attempt to help them. 6 years is long enough to hope for a positive outcome.
It's just very sad for all the families involved.
They wouldn't be incarcerated with adults. At least they shouldn't be. They would be in a juvenile facility. As far as mental illness, there are times when people are mentally ill and they still know the behavior they are doing is wrong. I have no clue what test the state these girls live in uses, but a lot of states look at whether the claimant knew what they were doing was wrong. If the mental illness was so great they had no appreciation of criminality of the act then hospitalizations may be appropriate. But if mental illness just made them not care then jail may be appropriate. If that makes sense.
Yeah, I don't think they go to an adult facility. It would be a maximum security juvenile prison. I just watched a "Kids that kill" episode where a 13 year old was sentenced as an adult but he was with other kids until he turns 18. They have a school they go to everyday at the prison. It functions like an adult max security prison but it is with children.
They are 12! 12! My baby girl is 12 and she doesn't have the sense to put her glasses away properly or brush her teeth reliably. She still sings into her hairbrush and thinks she can be in Taylor Swift's backup group.
Yes, they planned and plotted this insane and horrible crime, but they did it in the context of believing in a fictional boogie man. There was some sort of folie a deux going on, imo. I think it's insane to charge a 12 year old child as an adult, especially when they were acting with some form of "magical thinking" - it's not like they were in this for money or revenge or any other adult kind of motivation.
I can't even imagine what all 3 of the families are going through. It's all horrifying and sad and tragic and the blood lust for these two 12 year old girls is disturbing.
I'm going for life with the chance of parole......similar to the Manson followers. They didn't kill the girl, but there was intent. In about 10 years or so, they go before a parole board. If they're still clucking like chickens then they go back to their cell for another 10 years. Repeat.
If there is mental illness involved (and the slenderman bits of the story damn sure point to that IMO) they don't belong in jail, period.
Outside of that fact, I also don't believe 12 year olds should be incarcerated in the same place as adults - be it an institution or jail. I'm not saying they should be let out, but they aren't adults and shouldn't be treated as if they were.
I hope they end up in a psychiatric facility that can at least attempt to help them. 6 years is long enough to hope for a positive outcome.
It's just very sad for all the families involved.
Is it? How do you know? It may or may not be.
The perpetrators should be given the best help possible, whatever that will entail. They will clearly not be thrown into a women's prison. As others have stated, they will most likely be in a juvenile detention facility where they will get intensive treatment, then have their cases re-evaluated at 18 or 21, at which point they may be transferred to an adult psychiatric facility for continued treatment.
When we lived in WI, which wasn't that long ago really, we lived a half a mile from where this happened. I know enough to know the juvenile facilities in wi will not rehabilitate these girls. I don't entirely understand why they did so much research on the internet but didn't think to look to see how far Nicolet forest is from where they were, or even realize how big it is. I went to camp for years in the forest, and I wouldn't have wanted to walk around looking for anything much there.
Living in WI made you an expert on the juvenile facilities?
Post by thelurkylulu on Jun 6, 2014 11:53:36 GMT -5
My first thought is... I just can't imagine being the parent of any of these kids. It's just terrible.
Secondly, like numerous PPs have said, the mental health system in this country is severely broken. You will never really understand how much so unless you've been through it with someone that you love, or worked in healthcare.
Also, I keep trying to wrap my head around how the police can charge a 12 year old, with a history of mental illness, as an adult. 12 year olds, no matter how evil or sick, are not adults. I have a good friend whose 12 year old daughter was involved in a naked snap chat scandal this year. (Obviously, naked snap chats are at the opposite end of the spectrum in relation to this tragedy.) That said, my friend was absolutely devastated when she was called into the school office. Her daughter thought the whole thing was no big deal. My point is that kids that age have no concept of the potential life altering, long term consequences of their actions. Should a sane 12 year old know murder is wrong? Absolutely. But it sounds like we're talking about a child who is mentally ill here. The brain of a 12 year old child is not even fully developed. It just blows my mind that so many people are fine with tossing this girl into an adult prison for years. She needs help. I know absolutely nothing about the mental health services that are offered to prisoners and would be interested in hearing from someone who knows about that. Is it realistic that these girls will get the treatment they need in jail?
These girls are not going to be going to prison our jail. They'll likely be sent to a secure psychiatric facility run by some state that has the resources to deal with juvenile offenders.
I would not try a 12 y/old as an adult, but I would also not have a lot of faith in their rehabilitation in the juvenile justice system. The best outcome I can think of is them being committed for a maximum term - which would probably be until their early 20's- in a mental institution and tracking after that. I do think the ringleader may have sociopathic tendencies - I share the view the other girl was dragged along and is more weak than evil - but she is still only 12, and at this point, it is unjust to try her as an adult. I wouldn't be surprised if she reoffends though.
None of that makes this the parents' fault. I've read those articles and its BS.
When we lived in WI, which wasn't that long ago really, we lived a half a mile from where this happened. I know enough to know the juvenile facilities in wi will not rehabilitate these girls. I don't entirely understand why they did so much research on the internet but didn't think to look to see how far Nicolet forest is from where they were, or even realize how big it is. I went to camp for years in the forest, and I wouldn't have wanted to walk around looking for anything much there.
Living in WI made you an expert on the juvenile facilities?
Yes, because you get an advanced education in Juvie as a wisconsin resident. That makes a fuck load of sense. Try again.