Is cotton offensive to black people?

[SallyJ]

Dec 15, 2014 12:21:46 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 8:41:11 GMT -5 hopecounts said:

That's part of the point despite it not fitting the reality Black Americans are still disproportionately thought to be staff/'the help'/worker rather then shopper.
Which regardless of what you think of clerks is a significant case of othering Black Americans. 
Many whites don't assume a Black Person is in a store to shop but to work, which means they don't see them as the same on a certain level. 

Yeah, I just don't relate to that in any way shape or form.
I don't think that people who are working are not on my level.  My town is so predominately white that when I see a black person at Walmart, I assume they travelled specifically to shop at the Super Walmart instead of the regular walmart.  I'd be much more likely to peg a white person as an employee than a black person.

But thanks for the lesson in how all white people think!  It's been enlightening

GRUMBLE. GRUMBLE. GRUMBLE.

It isn't a lesson on how ALL white people think, it's a lesson in how SOME black people are made to feel over and over by SOME white people.  You have been blind to it (because you are a white person and have race privilege).  People in this thread have been willing to be civil and rational to pull the wool from your eyes.  You don't want them to if you can't sit and contemplate for a single solitary second that the black people in here aren't crazy, aren't delusional when they tell you these things.  It makes me not believe you when you say you have empathy, and I will go as far to say that it also gives the distinct impression that you are both ignorant and racist. 

Hell, you can't even see the difference the difference in identifying the subject in an English sentence:
When you say "the blacks" the subject of the sentence is blacks.  When you say "white people", the subject of the sentence is people, with white being a descriptor.  Black people aren't even considered people when you just call them 'blacks' or 'the blacks'.  Therein lies the problem.  

ETA:  And before you go all, but you used 'the whites', you will still fail to understand how the English language works.  If I say, 'you are white', you is the subject (a person) and white is a descriptor.

Seriously, if you are going to state your opinions, learn how to communicate them so that your intent matches everyone's perception of what you are saying.

[pixy0stix]

Dec 15, 2014 13:02:59 GMT -5 cville said:

ETA:  also, please keep in mind that I'm giddy from an SS explosion on ML so I'm not making much sense.  It's jokes and gif time over there.

::wanders over to gawk::

[elleblue]

Dec 15, 2014 7:57:16 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

I do not use the phrase the blacks. I only used it in this thread when quoting pixy. It's not a phrase I use otherwise, and I would never use black the way you use white over and over: "you're unable to understand this concept because you're black/white" . If you want to use 'The Whites', I don't care. I think you already did, anyway.

The I am sorry was sincere, and repeated to get the point across, because it's wicked hard for people to accept apologies here. It backfired, evidently, so I still don't know how to do it.

What? No. I don't use that phrase and never would. 

[sandsonik]

Dec 15, 2014 12:58:00 GMT -5 cville said:

BRIEF TIME OUT:

Okay, we need to take a break on the Irish Potato Famine because this is annoying me. The potato famine was terrible because POTATO crops failed and, as it had been a staple/main resource for the poor of Ireland, they were left with nothing to eat.

The potato famine wasn't about resorting TO potatoes, it was about the absence of the once-prevalent potato. And like 10,000 political and socioeconomic issues, including a sharecroppingesque farming system designed to keep the poor and disfavored from ever ascending. FULL CIRCLE.


/time out over

I thought everyone knew that.  Ireland was exporting HUGE quantities of food to Britain while a million people died of starvation. 

It was fucking genocide.

[iammalcolmx]

Oh shit, someone came for Cville? Here we go!!

[5thofjuly]

My addition to this thread is that this morning I went to a little "country store" kind of place to do some Christmas shopping for my mother in law. They did not have stalks of cotton in there. What they had was those black dolls which had the few bunches of hair sticking straight up and tied with ribbons and red painted lips. I know what they're called, but I also know that the word is offensive, so I'm not using it here.

Normally, I'm someone who would just walk out but, thinking of this thread and CEP, I decided I needed to say something. I asked the woman if she was the owner. She was, but unfortunately, she was not a Nancy.

Me (super Midwestern nice): "I'm sure you don't realize this because you'd never have them up otherwise, but those dolls are actually incredibly offensive."
Owner: "Oh, no. No, don't worry- they're not."
Me: "Actually, they are. They're caricatures and have a very racist legacy."
Owner: "Oh, no, honey. They're not. I asked the blacks and they said they were fine." (and, yes, she actually said "the blacks.")
Me: "Well, I'd hate for you to alienate potential customers like me by having them in the store, because they do."

I hope she'll go home, do a little research, reflect, and change her mind on what stock she carries, but, I kind of doubt it. Obviously, my experience was minor- I was able to walk out of the store and keep on being white. But, I sense that's what has to be so incredibly frustrating to so many in this thread. Even when you directly tell someone how offensive something is, they brush it off. I think I could have tried explaining it to the country store lady all day, but she had absolutely no desire to even try to hear what I was saying.

[cville]

Dec 15, 2014 13:15:45 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 12:58:00 GMT -5 cville said:

BRIEF TIME OUT:

Okay, we need to take a break on the Irish Potato Famine because this is annoying me. The potato famine was terrible because POTATO crops failed and, as it had been a staple/main resource for the poor of Ireland, they were left with nothing to eat.

The potato famine wasn't about resorting TO potatoes, it was about the absence of the once-prevalent potato. And like 10,000 political and socioeconomic issues, including a sharecroppingesque farming system designed to keep the poor and disfavored from ever ascending. FULL CIRCLE.


/time out over

I thought everyone knew that.  Ireland was exporting HUGE quantities of food to Britain while a million people died of starvation. 

It was fucking genocide.

Huh.  So you're saying that there's a historical, political, and social context for certain events/times in history that can and should inform people's reactions to and experiences of modern day life, and that many of these events/times are of such importance that "everyone" should know about and understand them.

That's SUCH an interesting perspective.

[Velar Fricative]

I daresay not a single person here would tell anyone of Irish descent to just let the famine go.

But now we're getting into Suffering Olympics territory and I don't like it. A lot of bad shit happened in the world. I would never tell black people, the Irish, Armenians, Jews, indigenous people forced off their native lands, Roma, Bosnians, etc. that they should get over it. The End.

And I am asking this in a non-snarky manner, I promise, but I'm related to a helluva lot of Irish people through marriage who are very into their Irishness, and I don't recall ever hearing about symbols of a potato being offensive to them. Are there specific examples that are offensive? I'm honestly asking.

[ttt]

Dec 15, 2014 13:22:28 GMT -5 5thofjuly said:

My addition to this thread is that this morning I went to a little "country store" kind of place to do some Christmas shopping for my mother in law. They did not have stalks of cotton in there. What they had was those black dolls which had the few bunches of hair sticking straight up and tied with ribbons and red painted lips. I know what they're called, but I also know that the word is offensive, so I'm not using it here.

Normally, I'm someone who would just walk out but, thinking of this thread and CEP, I decided I needed to say something. I asked the woman if she was the owner. She was, but unfortunately, she was not a Nancy.

Me (super Midwestern nice): "I'm sure you don't realize this because you'd never have them up otherwise, but those dolls are actually incredibly offensive."
Owner: "Oh, no. No, don't worry- they're not."
Me: "Actually, they are. They're caricatures and have a very racist legacy."
Owner: "Oh, no, honey. They're not. I asked the blacks and they said they were fine." (and, yes, she actually said "the blacks.")
Me: "Well, I'd hate for you to alienate potential customers like me by having them in the store, because they do."

I hope she'll go home, do a little research, reflect, and change her mind on what stock she carries, but, I kind of doubt it. Obviously, my experience was minor- I was able to walk out of the store and keep on being white. But, I sense that's what has to be so incredibly frustrating to so many in this thread. Even when you directly tell someone how offensive something is, they brush it off. I think I could have tried explaining it to the country store lady all day, but she had absolutely no desire to even try to hear what I was saying.

:?

[sandsonik]

Dec 15, 2014 13:14:42 GMT -5 @mx said:

Dec 15, 2014 12:21:46 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

I just don't relate to that in any way shape or form.
I don't think that people who are working are not on my level.  My town is so predominately white that when I see a black person at Walmart, I assume they travelled specifically to shop at the Super Walmart instead of the regular walmart.  I'd be much more likely to peg a white person as an employee than a black person.

But thanks for the lesson in how all white people think!  It's been enlightening

You aren't understanding the basis of this at all. It's not about what all white people think or about you specifically being racist or about people who work in retail being lesser human beings.

The fact is that until very recently (vis a vis their arrival in this country) black Americans weren't allowed to hold many, certain jobs. They had to work as nannies or cleaners, porters or in low wage agricultural or service industry jobs because active, legal discrimination kept them out of white collar and more highly paid positions. Moreover, a legacy of substandard education, employment and housing discrimination and INTENTIONAL and LEGAL self segregation of the white population all of which persist to this day have prevented many black Americans from realizing their potential--and they consequently are disproportionately represented in the most low paid, undesirable sectors of the economy.

Ergo, for a black man or woman to be repeatedly mistaken for a Walmart employee or nanny etc has markedly different connotations than it does for a white person. I have been mistaken for a store employee on a number of occasions--including by black people. But because I don't come from that background of constantly having to prove that I am smart/law abiding/polite/not on welfare it doesn't read the same way. For a black person I imagine sometimes this comes across as "you couldn't be anything BUT a store clerk or a nanny" which is just another constant daily reminder of inequality, racial bias and the pressure to appear "respectable" at all costs. I don't feel that pressure. I can go to Target unbathed and in wrinkled clothes straight off 38 hours on planes/in transit and buy a haphazard selection of wine, ice cream and ranch dip and no one will assume I'm a welfare queen. My next door neighbor who is a dark skinned black woman does not have that luxury.

The best analogy I can come up with, and it isn't a good one, is that I have at times--more often than I would prefer--been mistaken for a SAHM. Now this is ludicrous as I don't even have kids, but there is something grating about the assumption that because I'm a woman of a certain age that that's the box I fall into. That doesn't mean being a SAHM is a bad thing--it's the assumption that you couldn't be anything BUT that which grates.

OMFG, you have no idea how nearly every sentence of that post is hugely offensive, do you?

Read it again and think about it.  I don't have time now, maybe if I get to take a lunch.

[2curlydogs]

How the fuck did this thread get to 13 pages and the Irish Potato Famine?

[cville]

Dec 15, 2014 13:36:39 GMT -5 2curlydogs said:

How the fuck did this thread get to 13 pages and the Irish Potato Famine?

I don't know, but I think the famine thing is my fault.  Sorry guys.

[AJL]

I'm kind of here because I'm on Team-BB's-cotton-display-ain't-right and also what the hell with some of  y'all going all, "Well it doesn't bother me!"??

[NitaX]

Dec 15, 2014 13:29:59 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 13:14:42 GMT -5 @mx said:

You aren't understanding the basis of this at all. It's not about what all white people think or about you specifically being racist or about people who work in retail being lesser human beings.

The fact is that until very recently (vis a vis their arrival in this country) black Americans weren't allowed to hold many, certain jobs. They had to work as nannies or cleaners, porters or in low wage agricultural or service industry jobs because active, legal discrimination kept them out of white collar and more highly paid positions. Moreover, a legacy of substandard education, employment and housing discrimination and INTENTIONAL and LEGAL self segregation of the white population all of which persist to this day have prevented many black Americans from realizing their potential--and they consequently are disproportionately represented in the most low paid, undesirable sectors of the economy.

Ergo, for a black man or woman to be repeatedly mistaken for a Walmart employee or nanny etc has markedly different connotations than it does for a white person. I have been mistaken for a store employee on a number of occasions--including by black people. But because I don't come from that background of constantly having to prove that I am smart/law abiding/polite/not on welfare it doesn't read the same way. For a black person I imagine sometimes this comes across as "you couldn't be anything BUT a store clerk or a nanny" which is just another constant daily reminder of inequality, racial bias and the pressure to appear "respectable" at all costs. I don't feel that pressure. I can go to Target unbathed and in wrinkled clothes straight off 38 hours on planes/in transit and buy a haphazard selection of wine, ice cream and ranch dip and no one will assume I'm a welfare queen. My next door neighbor who is a dark skinned black woman does not have that luxury.

The best analogy I can come up with, and it isn't a good one, is that I have at times--more often than I would prefer--been mistaken for a SAHM. Now this is ludicrous as I don't even have kids, but there is something grating about the assumption that because I'm a woman of a certain age that that's the box I fall into. That doesn't mean being a SAHM is a bad thing--it's the assumption that you couldn't be anything BUT that which grates.

OMFG, you have no idea how nearly every sentence of that post is hugely offensive, do you?

Read it again and think about it.  I don't have time now, maybe if I get to take a lunch.

Everyone - we've reached the Gif Portion of the Thread.

I am currently - 

[gpw]

LOLing at @mx being offensive.

[Velar Fricative]

So I've re-read mx's post and I'm not seeing offense there. Like, I'm really trying hard to find something in there that would offend somebody and I can't. I mean, I'm offended that racism exists, but I don't think that's what sandsonik is talking about.

[ttt]

Dec 15, 2014 13:42:44 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

So I've re-read mx's post and I'm not seeing offense there. Like, I'm really trying hard to find something in there that would offend somebody and I can't. I mean, I'm offended that racism exists, but I don't think that's what sandsonik is talking about.

I don't get it either. I mean, I genuinely don't understand what part of it is offensive. Is it the SAHM part? 

[cattledogkisses]

Dec 15, 2014 13:40:39 GMT -5 gpw said:

LOLing at @mx being offensive.

I feel like fuckstick's "WAT" face is the only proper response to that.  Lol. 

[ttt]

Dec 15, 2014 13:40:39 GMT -5 gpw said:

LOLing at @mx being offensive.

Seriously, what's next, meshaliuknits is offensive??? 

[2curlydogs]

Dec 15, 2014 13:42:44 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

So I've re-read mx's post and I'm not seeing offense there. Like, I'm really trying hard to find something in there that would offend somebody and I can't. I mean, I'm offended that racism exists, but I don't think that's what sandsonik is talking about.

If I'm remembering correctly, she also got kinda... offended in the last Boomer thread about how Millennials can't sew.

[gpw]

I think a distinct difference between being mistaken for a store employee and "the help".  It's in the delivery.  For instance, none of these sentences start with "excuse me, do you work here?".  I, too, have been mistaken for an employee and not a shopper, but it's always been prefaced with "do you work here?".  Now, I realize that's anecdotal, and we don't really know if the person asked that question first or not (I tend to think the author would have mentioned it, though) but I think it's an important distinction.  

Miss, can you start me a fitting room for me, please.



Do you have this in a size 8?



Can you tell me the price on this?



Where is the bathroom?


Do you have kale chips?



Which aisle are the Goji berries in?


Can you throw this in the trash for me?



Excuse me, I’d like to speak with your manager.


Miss, you’re all out of the Ms. Meyers lemon verbena countertop spray. Can you check for more in the back?


What time do you close today?

[Velar Fricative]

Dec 15, 2014 13:44:00 GMT -5 ttt said:

Dec 15, 2014 13:40:39 GMT -5 gpw said:

LOLing at @mx being offensive.

Seriously, what's next, meshaliuknits is offensive??? 

I'm offended by cats and great hair and ginger babies.

[gpw]

Dec 15, 2014 13:45:14 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Dec 15, 2014 13:44:00 GMT -5 ttt said:

Seriously, what's next, meshaliuknits is offensive??? 

I'm offended by cats and great hair and ginger babies.

and chocolate pear spread (except I'm really not meshaliuknits I WAS JOKING!!!)

[meshaliuknits]

Dec 15, 2014 13:45:14 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Dec 15, 2014 13:44:00 GMT -5 ttt said:

Seriously, what's next, meshaliuknits is offensive??? 

I'm offended by cats and great hair and ginger babies.

*adds to do not save list*

[meshaliuknits]

Dec 15, 2014 13:44:00 GMT -5 ttt said:

Dec 15, 2014 13:40:39 GMT -5 gpw said:

LOLing at @mx being offensive.

Seriously, what's next, meshaliuknits is offensive??? 

*adds to possibly save list*

[5thofjuly]

Dec 15, 2014 13:47:18 GMT -5 @mx said:

Dec 15, 2014 13:40:39 GMT -5 gpw said:

LOLing at @mx being offensive.

I re-read that like 94 times. Sometimes jet lag is a bitch, but I'm still baffled at how EVERY SENTENCE was offensive--save the SAHM bit which wasn't intended that way and I admitted was a shitty analogy.

No worries. I read it and I didn't find it offensive. Therefore, anyone who did just needs to get over it.

[summer]

Dec 15, 2014 13:29:59 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 13:14:42 GMT -5 @mx said:

You aren't understanding the basis of this at all. It's not about what all white people think or about you specifically being racist or about people who work in retail being lesser human beings.

The fact is that until very recently (vis a vis their arrival in this country) black Americans weren't allowed to hold many, certain jobs. They had to work as nannies or cleaners, porters or in low wage agricultural or service industry jobs because active, legal discrimination kept them out of white collar and more highly paid positions. Moreover, a legacy of substandard education, employment and housing discrimination and INTENTIONAL and LEGAL self segregation of the white population all of which persist to this day have prevented many black Americans from realizing their potential--and they consequently are disproportionately represented in the most low paid, undesirable sectors of the economy.

Ergo, for a black man or woman to be repeatedly mistaken for a Walmart employee or nanny etc has markedly different connotations than it does for a white person. I have been mistaken for a store employee on a number of occasions--including by black people. But because I don't come from that background of constantly having to prove that I am smart/law abiding/polite/not on welfare it doesn't read the same way. For a black person I imagine sometimes this comes across as "you couldn't be anything BUT a store clerk or a nanny" which is just another constant daily reminder of inequality, racial bias and the pressure to appear "respectable" at all costs. I don't feel that pressure. I can go to Target unbathed and in wrinkled clothes straight off 38 hours on planes/in transit and buy a haphazard selection of wine, ice cream and ranch dip and no one will assume I'm a welfare queen. My next door neighbor who is a dark skinned black woman does not have that luxury.

The best analogy I can come up with, and it isn't a good one, is that I have at times--more often than I would prefer--been mistaken for a SAHM. Now this is ludicrous as I don't even have kids, but there is something grating about the assumption that because I'm a woman of a certain age that that's the box I fall into. That doesn't mean being a SAHM is a bad thing--it's the assumption that you couldn't be anything BUT that which grates.

OMFG, you have no idea how nearly every sentence of that post is hugely offensive, do you?

Read it again and think about it.  I don't have time now, maybe if I get to take a lunch.

I stopped reading days ago and jumped to this last page, and I just don't see what is offensive here.  Or were you kidding?  

[ttt]

OK while we're on the topic of mistaking people for store workers, please people, whatever race you are, don't wear red shirts to Target.

[AJL]

Dec 15, 2014 13:29:59 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 13:14:42 GMT -5 @mx said:

You aren't understanding the basis of this at all. It's not about what all white people think or about you specifically being racist or about people who work in retail being lesser human beings.

The fact is that until very recently (vis a vis their arrival in this country) black Americans weren't allowed to hold many, certain jobs. They had to work as nannies or cleaners, porters or in low wage agricultural or service industry jobs because active, legal discrimination kept them out of white collar and more highly paid positions. Moreover, a legacy of substandard education, employment and housing discrimination and INTENTIONAL and LEGAL self segregation of the white population all of which persist to this day have prevented many black Americans from realizing their potential--and they consequently are disproportionately represented in the most low paid, undesirable sectors of the economy.

Ergo, for a black man or woman to be repeatedly mistaken for a Walmart employee or nanny etc has markedly different connotations than it does for a white person. I have been mistaken for a store employee on a number of occasions--including by black people. But because I don't come from that background of constantly having to prove that I am smart/law abiding/polite/not on welfare it doesn't read the same way. For a black person I imagine sometimes this comes across as "you couldn't be anything BUT a store clerk or a nanny" which is just another constant daily reminder of inequality, racial bias and the pressure to appear "respectable" at all costs. I don't feel that pressure. I can go to Target unbathed and in wrinkled clothes straight off 38 hours on planes/in transit and buy a haphazard selection of wine, ice cream and ranch dip and no one will assume I'm a welfare queen. My next door neighbor who is a dark skinned black woman does not have that luxury.

The best analogy I can come up with, and it isn't a good one, is that I have at times--more often than I would prefer--been mistaken for a SAHM. Now this is ludicrous as I don't even have kids, but there is something grating about the assumption that because I'm a woman of a certain age that that's the box I fall into. That doesn't mean being a SAHM is a bad thing--it's the assumption that you couldn't be anything BUT that which grates.

OMFG, you have no idea how nearly every sentence of that post is hugely offensive, do you?

Read it again and think about it.  I don't have time now, maybe if I get to take a lunch.

Oh wait...

[elleblue]

Dec 15, 2014 13:53:27 GMT -5 ttt said:

OK while we're on the topic of mistaking people for store workers, please people, whatever race you are, don't wear red shirts to Target.

This is true. I once mistook a guy for a Target employee. But he was wearing a red polo shirt and khakis and it was only when he turned around that I saw he had no name tag.