Is cotton offensive to black people?

[NitaX]

Dec 11, 2014 10:28:08 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

Ok, I'm going to try and jump into my first real discussion, here goes nothing!

Something doesn't sit right with me. Anecdote alert, since I've been a teenager I've been frequently mistaken as a sales associate while shopping (except in winter because of my heavy winter coat). What she says here, "Miss, can you start me a fitting room for me, please. Do you have this in a size 8? Can you tell me the price on this? Where is the bathroom?" totally hits home for me. And yes, it's always the over 50 white lady asking me this crap. I am not black. And I haven't had the privilege of boarding school but I have had the privilege of working retail for 6 years. But I have been told I have a friendly face so maybe that's why people feel that I'm approachable? I don't know other people's intentions but I assume that this demographic has a certain sense of entitlement and wouldn't hesitate to ask anyone for help whether it be to tie their shoe or fetch a different sized shirt.
So the writer feels uneasy being mistaken for a sales associate and then later on goes into Brooks Brothers and asks a sales associate to take down their cotton display. A I said I worked retail and I'm guessing this sales associate didn't put one thought into that display. Sales associates aren't paid to think about the display they artfully arrange, they are paid to serve customers and fold clothes. Yes there are shitty sales associates that will say and act snotty but that wasn't played out in the article. This is where the article bothers me. What was the writer trying to prove here? She knows more about black history than a sales associate at Brooks Brothers? Also, I would be surprised if that display was really taken down the next day, displays are usually dictated by corporate and all stores are supposed to have similar if not the same display.

A few things:

1. Being assumed as The Help is offensive to black folks. We're often assumed to be the help whether we're dressed like the folks in the store or not. In this article, the writer notes that the person didn't apologize about her incorrect guess, she smirked and said that she thought the writer worked there. You can get cut some slack if you seem as if you made an earnest mistake and don't patronize someone like they probably should be the help.

2. Also worked retail and while yes, the clerks do put out visual merchandise, they can still alert the store manager of an issue and the regional manager can pass that information on to corporate. Now, a person can either call corporate or they can alert an associate of an issue. Obviously the writer alerted the clerk of the issue.

3. Part of the problem in this country IS that people know NOTHING of Black History. They don't think about it because no one forces them to think about it. The extent of Black History is Slaves got here, Harriet told them to follow the North Star, Douglass said some words, Rosa refused to get up, MLK had a Dream and then MLK gets shot. That's it. That's the full scope of a U.S. History book discussion on black history. And if you're lucky, some black guy did some shit with peanuts. The writer telling the clerk that the image of cotton - the very cotton that folks were enslaved to pick is upsetting to her shouldn't be met with "why is she giving a history lesson." Why? Because obviously no one thinks this stuff through. See also the Marketing FAIL by Strange Fruit. 

[iammalcolmx]

Dec 11, 2014 10:28:08 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

Ok, I'm going to try and jump into my first real discussion, here goes nothing!

Something doesn't sit right with me. Anecdote alert, since I've been a teenager I've been frequently mistaken as a sales associate while shopping (except in winter because of my heavy winter coat). What she says here, "Miss, can you start me a fitting room for me, please. Do you have this in a size 8? Can you tell me the price on this? Where is the bathroom?" totally hits home for me. And yes, it's always the over 50 white lady asking me this crap. I am not black. And I haven't had the privilege of boarding school but I have had the privilege of working retail for 6 years. But I have been told I have a friendly face so maybe that's why people feel that I'm approachable? I don't know other people's intentions but I assume that this demographic has a certain sense of entitlement and wouldn't hesitate to ask anyone for help whether it be to tie their shoe or fetch a different sized shirt.
So the writer feels uneasy being mistaken for a sales associate and then later on goes into Brooks Brothers and asks a sales associate to take down their cotton display. A I said I worked retail and I'm guessing this sales associate didn't put one thought into that display. Sales associates aren't paid to think about the display they artfully arrange, they are paid to serve customers and fold clothes. Yes there are shitty sales associates that will say and act snotty but that wasn't played out in the article. This is where the article bothers me. What was the writer trying to prove here? She knows more about black history than a sales associate at Brooks Brothers? Also, I would be surprised if that display was really taken down the next day, displays are usually dictated by corporate and all stores are supposed to have similar if not the same display.

That she is most likely mistaken for a worker in the store at a disproportionate rate. I have been there as have most of my family. My Aunt once had someone ask her to get her car while she was standing in front of a hotel in a Fur Coat.
She was offended by the use of raw cotton, I don't think she was trying to flaunt her knowledge of Black history. The Legacy of Cotton and it's connection to slavery isn't an esoteric concept.
I worked retail as well and if a customer told me they were offended by a display, I would take it down at once.

[pixy0stix]

Cotton as a whole is just bad news. I read and agree with most of the thread. I'm side eyeing the use of it in weddings. It's just another example of people being wholly clueless to the world at large.

Cotton STILL is a symbol of oppression throughout the world. Consider Uzbekistan cotton where the whole citizenry right down to the children are physically forced to work in the fields.

[froggy76]

Dec 11, 2014 10:57:31 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Cotton as a whole is just bad news. I read and agree with most of the thread. I'm side eyeing the use of it in weddings. It's just another example of people being wholly clueless to the world at large.

Cotton STILL is a symbol of oppression throughout the world. Consider Uzbekistan cotton where the whole citizenry right down to the children are physically forced to work in the fields.

I guess this is what's not sitting right with me in this thread. If cotton is still such a symbol of oppression, then why are we okay buying clothes made from it? This is one of those instances where I feel helpless because it's easier just to not know than to figure out how not to support this industry.

[00janelane00]

Dec 11, 2014 10:45:34 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Dec 11, 2014 10:28:08 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

Ok, I'm going to try and jump into my first real discussion, here goes nothing!

Something doesn't sit right with me. Anecdote alert, since I've been a teenager I've been frequently mistaken as a sales associate while shopping (except in winter because of my heavy winter coat). What she says here, "Miss, can you start me a fitting room for me, please. Do you have this in a size 8? Can you tell me the price on this? Where is the bathroom?" totally hits home for me. And yes, it's always the over 50 white lady asking me this crap. I am not black. And I haven't had the privilege of boarding school but I have had the privilege of working retail for 6 years. But I have been told I have a friendly face so maybe that's why people feel that I'm approachable? I don't know other people's intentions but I assume that this demographic has a certain sense of entitlement and wouldn't hesitate to ask anyone for help whether it be to tie their shoe or fetch a different sized shirt.
So the writer feels uneasy being mistaken for a sales associate and then later on goes into Brooks Brothers and asks a sales associate to take down their cotton display. A I said I worked retail and I'm guessing this sales associate didn't put one thought into that display. Sales associates aren't paid to think about the display they artfully arrange, they are paid to serve customers and fold clothes. Yes there are shitty sales associates that will say and act snotty but that wasn't played out in the article. This is where the article bothers me. What was the writer trying to prove here? She knows more about black history than a sales associate at Brooks Brothers? Also, I would be surprised if that display was really taken down the next day, displays are usually dictated by corporate and all stores are supposed to have similar if not the same display.

A few things:

1. Being assumed as The Help is offensive to black folks. We're often assumed to be the help whether we're dressed like the folks in the store or not. In this article, the writer notes that the person didn't apologize about her incorrect guess, she smirked and said that she thought the writer worked there. You can get cut some slack if you seem as if you made an earnest mistake and don't patronize someone like they probably should be the help.

2. Also worked retail and while yes, the clerks do put out visual merchandise, they can still alert the store manager of an issue and the regional manager can pass that information on to corporate. Now, a person can either call corporate or they can alert an associate of an issue. Obviously the writer alerted the clerk of the issue.

3. Part of the problem in this country IS that people know NOTHING of Black History. They don't think about it because no one forces them to think about it. The extent of Black History is Slaves got here, Harriet told them to follow the North Star, Douglass said some words, Rosa refused to get up, MLK had a Dream and then MLK gets shot. That's it. That's the full scope of a U.S. History book discussion on black history. And if you're lucky, some black guy did some shit with peanuts. The writer telling the clerk that the image of cotton - the very cotton that folks were enslaved to pick is upsetting to her shouldn't be met with "why is she giving a history lesson." Why? Because obviously no one thinks this stuff through. See also the Marketing FAIL by Strange Fruit. 

1. Isn't it offensive to everyone?  It's offensive to me as well but I just go on about my day.  In my anecdocte I didn't specify but I don't recall these older white ladies ever apologizing to me for their mistake as well.  It's more of a "Oh, OK" and they move on to the next person they assume works in the store.  Like I said I'm not black so I can't speak to the black experience but personally I don't see how this is a black only issue.

2. Did you alert the store manager of every complaint?  If I received this complaint I would have moved it up the food chain but I can almost guarantee that it would have stopped at the store manager and it would have been met with a roll of the eye and a pat on the head.  Maybe it's the area I live in but not everyone cares about being PC.  She should have called corporate.

3.  I can agree but when I think of a teachable moment this is not what I have in mind.  If she had an issue with the display she should have directed her complaint elsewhere, not at a sales associate.  Later on she says that she directed her complaints to corporate which is appropriate, why "take aside" a sales associate?  It seems inappropriate.  But that's my two cents.

[cville]

Ugh. The phrase "what are you trying to prove" and any and all permutations thereof makes my skin crawl. It's a lazy argument. It's frequently deployed in defensive fashion as an offensive maneuver that distracts from the primary issue. And it requires neither cogent support nor content to make.

The author wasn't trying to PROVE anything. She informed a sales associate, i.e., the face of the goddamned store, that the display was offensive. The sales associate, beloved Helen, took it down because after listening and--this is key--hearing the author, she realized a) that it was offensive to some and b) the problem was immediately solved, for free, without problem. So she solved it. Go Helen. Go author.

That's IT. The end goal is the education of others about the challenges some people (or groups of people) face in society. Goal achieved (for some). Cotton removed. Story written. The end.

[00janelane00]

Dec 11, 2014 10:48:11 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Dec 11, 2014 10:28:08 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

Ok, I'm going to try and jump into my first real discussion, here goes nothing!

Something doesn't sit right with me. Anecdote alert, since I've been a teenager I've been frequently mistaken as a sales associate while shopping (except in winter because of my heavy winter coat). What she says here, "Miss, can you start me a fitting room for me, please. Do you have this in a size 8? Can you tell me the price on this? Where is the bathroom?" totally hits home for me. And yes, it's always the over 50 white lady asking me this crap. I am not black. And I haven't had the privilege of boarding school but I have had the privilege of working retail for 6 years. But I have been told I have a friendly face so maybe that's why people feel that I'm approachable? I don't know other people's intentions but I assume that this demographic has a certain sense of entitlement and wouldn't hesitate to ask anyone for help whether it be to tie their shoe or fetch a different sized shirt.
So the writer feels uneasy being mistaken for a sales associate and then later on goes into Brooks Brothers and asks a sales associate to take down their cotton display. A I said I worked retail and I'm guessing this sales associate didn't put one thought into that display. Sales associates aren't paid to think about the display they artfully arrange, they are paid to serve customers and fold clothes. Yes there are shitty sales associates that will say and act snotty but that wasn't played out in the article. This is where the article bothers me. What was the writer trying to prove here? She knows more about black history than a sales associate at Brooks Brothers? Also, I would be surprised if that display was really taken down the next day, displays are usually dictated by corporate and all stores are supposed to have similar if not the same display.

That she is most likely mistaken for a worker in the store at a disproportionate rate. I have been there as have most of my family. My Aunt once had someone ask her to get her car while she was standing in front of a hotel in a Fur Coat.
She was offended by the use of raw cotton, I don't think she was trying to flaunt her knowledge of Black history. The Legacy of Cotton and it's connection to slavery isn't an esoteric concept.
I worked retail as well and if a customer told me they were offended by a display, I would take it down at once.

That's quite possible, like I said it just happens to me frequently as well. 
As a sales clerk/associate did you have the power to take down a display "at once"??  I sure as hell didn't.  I would spend the next 2 hours putting it back up if I attempted to take down a display someone found offensive.  Plus, I needed my job, I wasn't about to make that my hill to die on.

[cville]

Dec 11, 2014 11:26:41 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

1. Isn't it offensive to everyone?  It's offensive to me as well but I just go on about my day.  In my anecdocte I didn't specify but I don't recall these older white ladies ever apologizing to me for their mistake as well.  It's more of a "Oh, OK" and they move on to the next person they assume works in the store.  Like I said I'm not black so I can't speak to the black experience but personally I don't see how this is a black only issue.

2. Did you alert the store manager of every complaint?  If I received this complaint I would have moved it up the food chain but I can almost guarantee that it would have stopped at the store manager and it would have been met with a roll of the eye and a pat on the head.  Maybe it's the area I live in but not everyone cares about being PC.  She should have called corporate.

3.  I can agree but when I think of a teachable moment this is not what I have in mind.  If she had an issue with the display she should have directed her complaint elsewhere, not at a sales associate.  Later on she says that she directed her complaints to corporate which is appropriate, why "take aside" a sales associate?  It seems inappropriate.  But that's my two cents.

Sounds like your store manager is an asshole.

Also, dude, come on now.  I haven't worked retail, but I've worked the minimum wage everyone-else-is-the-boss-of-me-I'm-a-cog jobs.  I was a lifeguard and asked (by a patron) to make a transitioning M-F woman walk through the office rather than the women's room to get to the pool.  I refused, because I cared more about doing the right thing in that moment than running it through the proper channels.

And I'm no honorable crusader.  I was an 18 year old who was like "huh, that sounds mean."  Also, the patron who asked me was a total jerk who barely supervised her kids in the water and always pissed me off.

[iammalcolmx]

Dec 11, 2014 11:26:41 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

Dec 11, 2014 10:45:34 GMT -5 NitaX said:

A few things:

1. Being assumed as The Help is offensive to black folks. We're often assumed to be the help whether we're dressed like the folks in the store or not. In this article, the writer notes that the person didn't apologize about her incorrect guess, she smirked and said that she thought the writer worked there. You can get cut some slack if you seem as if you made an earnest mistake and don't patronize someone like they probably should be the help.

2. Also worked retail and while yes, the clerks do put out visual merchandise, they can still alert the store manager of an issue and the regional manager can pass that information on to corporate. Now, a person can either call corporate or they can alert an associate of an issue. Obviously the writer alerted the clerk of the issue.

3. Part of the problem in this country IS that people know NOTHING of Black History. They don't think about it because no one forces them to think about it. The extent of Black History is Slaves got here, Harriet told them to follow the North Star, Douglass said some words, Rosa refused to get up, MLK had a Dream and then MLK gets shot. That's it. That's the full scope of a U.S. History book discussion on black history. And if you're lucky, some black guy did some shit with peanuts. The writer telling the clerk that the image of cotton - the very cotton that folks were enslaved to pick is upsetting to her shouldn't be met with "why is she giving a history lesson." Why? Because obviously no one thinks this stuff through. See also the Marketing FAIL by Strange Fruit. 

1. Isn't it offensive to everyone?  It's offensive to me as well but I just go on about my day.  In my anecdocte I didn't specify but I don't recall these older white ladies ever apologizing to me for their mistake as well.  It's more of a "Oh, OK" and they move on to the next person they assume works in the store.  Like I said I'm not black so I can't speak to the black experience but personally I don't see how this is a black only issue.

2. Did you alert the store manager of every complaint?  If I received this complaint I would have moved it up the food chain but I can almost guarantee that it would have stopped at the store manager and it would have been met with a roll of the eye and a pat on the head.  Maybe it's the area I live in but not everyone cares about being PC.  She should have called corporate.

3.  I can agree but when I think of a teachable moment this is not what I have in mind.  If she had an issue with the display she should have directed her complaint elsewhere, not at a sales associate.  Later on she says that she directed her complaints to corporate which is appropriate, why "take aside" a sales associate?  It seems inappropriate.  But that's my two cents.

We are seen as " The Help" no matter the circumstances and a disproportional rate. A winter coat stopped people from thinking you were such however a Mink coat didn't help my Aunt. It's not a Black only problem those from Spanish speaking countries have similar issues.
Additionally the term "PC" is a very loaded term thrown around all too often. There is a difference between being PC and being sensitive to the impact your actions will have on others. It's just better to err on the side of caution in order to avoid looking like a jerk.
Just because you have an issue with how the OP went about doing things doesn't mean her complaint isn't valid.

[iammalcolmx]

Dec 11, 2014 11:33:16 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

Dec 11, 2014 10:48:11 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

That she is most likely mistaken for a worker in the store at a disproportionate rate. I have been there as have most of my family. My Aunt once had someone ask her to get her car while she was standing in front of a hotel in a Fur Coat.
She was offended by the use of raw cotton, I don't think she was trying to flaunt her knowledge of Black history. The Legacy of Cotton and it's connection to slavery isn't an esoteric concept.
I worked retail as well and if a customer told me they were offended by a display, I would take it down at once.

That's quite possible, like I said it just happens to me frequently as well. 
As a sales clerk/associate did you have the power to take down a display "at once"??  I sure as hell didn't.  I would spend the next 2 hours putting it back up if I attempted to take down a display someone found offensive.  Plus, I needed my job, I wasn't about to make that my hill to die on.

Yes

[NitaX]

Dec 11, 2014 11:26:41 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

Dec 11, 2014 10:45:34 GMT -5 NitaX said:

A few things:

1. Being assumed as The Help is offensive to black folks. We're  we're dressed like the folks in the store or not. In this article, the writer notes that the person didn't apologize about her incorrect guess, she smirked and said that she thought the writer worked there. You can get cut some slack if you seem as if you made an earnest mistake and don't patronize someone like they probably should be the help.

2. Also worked retail and while yes, the clerks do put out visual merchandise, they can still alert the store manager of an issue and the regional manager can pass that information on to corporate. Now, a person can either call corporate or they can alert an associate of an issue. Obviously the writer alerted the clerk of the issue.

3. Part of the problem in this country IS that people know NOTHING of Black History. They don't think about it because no one forces them to think about it. The extent of Black History is Slaves got here, Harriet told them to follow the North Star, Douglass said some words, Rosa refused to get up, MLK had a Dream and then MLK gets shot. That's it. That's the full scope of a U.S. History book discussion on black history. And if you're lucky, some black guy did some shit with peanuts. The writer  the clerk that the image of cotton - the very cotton that folks were enslaved to pick is upsetting to her shouldn't be met with "why is she giving a history lesson." Why? Because obviously no one thinks this stuff through. See also the Marketing FAIL by Strange Fruit. 

1. Isn't it offensive to everyone?  It's offensive to me as  I just go on about my day.  In my I didn't specify but I don't recall these older white ladies ever apologizing to me for their mistake as well.  It's more of "Oh, OK" and they move on to the next person they assume works in the store.  Like I said I'm not black so I can't speak to the black  personally I don't see how this is a black only issue.

2. Did you alert the store manager of every complaint?  If I received this complaint I would have moved it up the food chain but I can almost guarantee that it would have stopped at the store manager and it would have been met with a roll of the eye and a pat on the head.  Maybe it's the area I live in but not everyone cares about being PC.  She should have called corporate.

3.  I can  when I think of a teachable moment this is not what I have in mind.  If she had an issue with the display she should have directed her complaint elsewhere, not at a sales associate.  Later on she says that she directed her complaints to corporate which is appropriate, why "take aside" a sales associate?  It seems inappropriate.  But that's my two cents.

1. No. What is offensive to me, may not be offensive to you. The issue here is that because you are white, you're assuming that my reality and yours are the same. It's not. Like, how would you feel if someone told you - after hurting your feelings - that it didn't hurt Jane's, so why should it hurt yours? It's odd to assume that for something to be offensive that it needs to offend everyone - including people who don't have the same history. 

2. When I worked retail, we weren't putting out bales of cotton. We simply dressed the mannequins and put up the store signs. If there was an issue regarding product placement of signs, then I told my store manager and she immediately rectified the issue.

3. She was offended by the display and she can say so. I am trying to understand why you feel it's out of the ordinary for someone to express displeasure at something that displeases them? Maybe she'd gotten tired of holding her tongue and finally said "Nah, no free passes today." 

[NitaX]

Dec 11, 2014 11:57:43 GMT -5 @happybythekilowatt said:

A white person being mistaken as the help and a black person being mistaken as the help will never be remotely the same thing. I say this as a white person who has frequently been mistaken as the help. I am not sure why that is hard to understand. It's not really comparable. As a white person, it's annoying. As a black person, it's offensive.

Well now, if it's not offensive to YOU, then surely, I should just go with it. 

[MrsAxilla]

Dec 11, 2014 11:52:36 GMT -5 deej said:

Dec 11, 2014 10:45:34 GMT -5 NitaX said:

3. Part of the problem in this country IS that people know NOTHING of Black History. They don't think about it because no one forces them to think about it. The extent of Black History is Slaves got here, Harriet told them to follow the North Star, Douglass said some words, Rosa refused to get up, MLK had a Dream and then MLK gets shot. That's it. That's the full scope of a U.S. History book discussion on black history. And if you're lucky, some black guy did some shit with peanuts. The writer telling the clerk that the image of cotton - the very cotton that folks were enslaved to pick is upsetting to her shouldn't be met with "why is she giving a history lesson." Why? Because obviously no one thinks this stuff through. See also the Marketing FAIL by Strange Fruit. 

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard "Why do we need Black History Month? We don't have White History Month!" I'd be rich. Because, you know, White History is such a mystery and never taught at all.

I feel like even when incidents are taught, we're given a very white-washed, bland, magnolia-myth filled version of it 90% of the time.  It's easier to act like this was something that happened SOOOO long ago when, in reality, people who are current community leaders and lawmakers were alive for it.

I could get on board with White History Month if it focused on how white people have subjugated every other race and ethnicity on the planet.  Let's talk about apartheid, and colonization, and slavery, and what happened to the Native Americans (including those in Mexico and South America) when white people showed up.

[mrsdewinter]

As a white person, being mistaken for a store clerk (or a nanny, etc.) does not have the same connotations, because society does not make assumptions about me because of my skin color--or they are positive assumptions. It does not occur in the same historical context. When a black person gets mistaken for a store clerk, it evokes the idea that black folks have a certain place in society, serving others. And my people have not had to fight and sacrifice their safety and their lives to be able to do something other than serve people. It's just not the same.

As a white person, it is also not my place to tell a person of color whether something should offend them. Because I don't experience what they do.

[NitaX]

Dec 11, 2014 12:02:55 GMT -5 @happybythekilowatt said:

Dec 11, 2014 11:59:23 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Well now, if it's not offensive to YOU, then surely, I should just go with it. 

Sorry I should have been clearer- I was addressing the person who said she was also offended being called the help and trying to address why it is not the same thing at all. I think you should be offended, because it's offensive. As white women, it's annoying but we have the privilege of rolling our eyes and directing them to a store associate without a history that makes us feel like lesser people. I was (badly) trying to get her to see that.

No - you're good. This is me agreeing with you. LOL

[pixy0stix]

Dec 11, 2014 11:11:45 GMT -5 froggy76 said:

Dec 11, 2014 10:57:31 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Cotton as a whole is just bad news. I read and agree with most of the thread. I'm side eyeing the use of it in weddings. It's just another example of people being wholly clueless to the world at large.

Cotton STILL is a symbol of oppression throughout the world. Consider Uzbekistan cotton where the whole citizenry right down to the children are physically forced to work in the fields.

I guess this is what's not sitting right with me in this thread. If cotton is still such a symbol of oppression, then why are we okay buying clothes made from it? This is one of those instances where I feel helpless because it's easier just to not know than to figure out how not to support this industry.

I'm not. I make a conscious effort to not buy from companies that use Uzbek cotton.

[00janelane00]

Dec 11, 2014 11:51:16 GMT -5 NitaX said:

1. No. What is offensive to me, may not be offensive to you. The issue here is that because you are white, you're assuming that my reality and yours are the same. It's not. Like, how would you feel if someone told you - after hurting your feelings - that it didn't hurt Jane's, so why should it hurt yours? It's odd to assume that for something to be offensive that it needs to offend everyone - including people who don't have the same history. 

2. When I worked retail, we weren't putting out bales of cotton. We simply dressed the mannequins and put up the store signs. If there was an issue regarding product placement of signs, then I told my store manager and she immediately rectified the issue.

3. She was offended by the display and she can say so. I am trying to understand why you feel it's out of the ordinary for someone to express displeasure at something that displeases them? Maybe she'd gotten tired of holding her tongue and finally said "Nah, no free passes today." 

1. No, I'm saying it is offensive but I just let it go.  Move on with your day.  Why would I let some old lady get my panties in a twist? 

2. I also was not putting out bales of cotton, nor have I ever seen this type of display.  The only time I remember anyone in my community getting pissed off about a display is when we got Victoria's Secret in the mall about 12 years ago and the mannequins displayed underwear for all the children to see (the horror!!!).  So you can tell the type of small town I'm living in.  Like I said, my experience is not yours but I'm sure my complaint to my manager about a cotton display would have been shut down.  I'm sure this would not be uncommon in small town America. 

3. Of course she can say she's offended.  I fielded many complaints, legitimate and ridiculous when I worked retail.  I think it's the wording she used, the "taking aside".  It feels condescending to me.  You take aside someone to reprimand them, which is not the appropriate tone for the situation in my opinion.  I think that's what's tripping me up here.  Of course it could have played out much differently in real life but the way it's written just feels off.

[cville]

Ugh. "Panties in a twist." It's like annoying catchphrase bingo up in this joint.



(my contributions to this thread are going markedly downhill)

[cookiemdough]

Dec 11, 2014 12:19:27 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

Dec 11, 2014 11:51:16 GMT -5 NitaX said:

1. No. What is offensive to me, may not be offensive to you. The issue here is that because you are white, you're assuming that my reality and yours are the same. It's not. Like, how would you feel if someone told you - after hurting your feelings - that it didn't hurt Jane's, so why should it hurt yours? It's odd to assume that for something to be offensive that it needs to offend everyone - including people who don't have the same history. 

2. When I worked retail, we weren't putting out bales of cotton. We simply dressed the mannequins and put up the store signs. If there was an issue regarding product placement of signs, then I told my store manager and she immediately rectified the issue.

3. She was offended by the display and she can say so. I am trying to understand why you feel it's out of the ordinary for someone to express displeasure at something that displeases them? Maybe she'd gotten tired of holding her tongue and finally said "Nah, no free passes today." 

1. No, I'm saying it is offensive but I just let it go.  Move on with your day.  Why would I let some old lady get my panties in a twist? 

2. I also was not putting out bales of cotton, nor have I ever seen this type of display.  The only time I remember anyone in my community getting pissed off about a display is when we got Victoria's Secret in the mall about 12 years ago and the mannequins displayed underwear for all the children to see (the horror!!!).  So you can tell the type of small town I'm living in.  Like I said, my experience is not yours but I'm sure my complaint to my manager about a cotton display would have been shut down.  I'm sure this would not be uncommon in small town America. 

3. Of course she can say she's offended.  I fielded many complaints, legitimate and ridiculous when I worked retail.  I think it's the wording she used, the "taking aside".  It feels condescending to me.  You take aside someone to reprimand them, which is not the appropriate tone for the situation in my opinion.  I think that's what's tripping me up here.  Of course it could have played out much differently in real life but the way it's written just feels off.

This smacks of how dare a black person try to tell me what to do. If you are a sales associate, part of your job is to consider satisfaction of your customers. All of your customers. So you will consider trivial complaints like wait times for a dressing room or not having a size 8 in stock, but stuff like taking down a marketing display that is racially offensive is beneath your consideration? Okay.

[00janelane00]

I'm busy at work and I don't want to let this slip through the cracks, sometimes I have a hard time expressing my point and I feel rushed right now.
I'm not trying to say that me as a white person being mistaken as help is the same as a black person being mistaken as help. Absolutely not. Do I get offended/annoyed? Yes. Is it the same? No. I know the history there and I understand the difference.
My main problem with this piece was the author's treatment with the staff at a store she frequents, it seemed hypocritical to me. But that's how I read it and maybe I read her tone wrong. Like I said, I worked retail so I'm sensitive to how shoppers treat sales associates, and usually that treatment is crappy. But that's not what the article is about, it's about how offensive cotton is and how the writer thinks it's a symbol of oppression so I'll leave it at that. I just picked up on that inconsistency and it bugged me.

[00janelane00]

Dec 11, 2014 12:33:04 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Dec 11, 2014 12:19:27 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

1. No, I'm saying it is offensive but I just let it go.  Move on with your day.  Why would I let some old lady get my panties in a twist? 

2. I also was not putting out bales of cotton, nor have I ever seen this type of display.  The only time I remember anyone in my community getting pissed off about a display is when we got Victoria's Secret in the mall about 12 years ago and the mannequins displayed underwear for all the children to see (the horror!!!).  So you can tell the type of small town I'm living in.  Like I said, my experience is not yours but I'm sure my complaint to my manager about a cotton display would have been shut down.  I'm sure this would not be uncommon in small town America. 

3. Of course she can say she's offended.  I fielded many complaints, legitimate and ridiculous when I worked retail.  I think it's the wording she used, the "taking aside".  It feels condescending to me.  You take aside someone to reprimand them, which is not the appropriate tone for the situation in my opinion.  I think that's what's tripping me up here.  Of course it could have played out much differently in real life but the way it's written just feels off.

This smacks of how dare a black person try to tell me what to do. If you are a sales associate, part of your job is to consider satisfaction of your customers. All of your customers. So you will consider trivial complaints like wait times for a dressing room or not having a size 8 in stock, but stuff like taking down a marketing display that is racially offensive is beneath your consideration? Okay.

Uh, no I'm saying my broke ass wouldn't want to get fired for dismantling a display.  When I worked retail I was not a manager.  If I were a manager this would be a different conversation. 

[NitaX]

Dec 11, 2014 12:19:27 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

Dec 11, 2014 11:51:16 GMT -5 NitaX said:

1. No. What is offensive to me, may not be offensive to you. The issue here is that because you are white, you're assuming that my reality and yours are the same. It's not. Like, how would you feel if someone told you - after hurting your feelings - that it didn't hurt Jane's, so why should it hurt yours? It's odd to assume that for something to be offensive that it needs to offend everyone - including people who don't have the same history. 

2. When I worked retail, we weren't putting out bales of cotton. We simply dressed the mannequins and put up the store signs. If there was an issue regarding product placement of signs, then I told my store manager and she immediately rectified the issue.

3. She was offended by the display and she can say so. I am trying to understand why you feel it's out of the ordinary for someone to express displeasure at something that displeases them? Maybe she'd gotten tired of holding her tongue and finally said "Nah, no free passes today." 

1. No, I'm saying it is offensive but I just let it go.  Move on with your day.  Why would I let some old lady get my panties in a twist? 

2. I also was not putting out bales of cotton, nor have I ever seen this type of display.  The only time I remember anyone in my community getting pissed off about a display is when we got Victoria's Secret in the mall about 12 years ago and the mannequins displayed underwear for all the children to see (the horror!!!).  So you can tell the type of small town I'm living in.  Like I said, my experience is not yours but I'm sure my complaint to my manager about a cotton display would have been shut down.  I'm sure this would not be uncommon in small town America. 

3. Of course she can say she's offended.  I fielded many complaints, legitimate and ridiculous when I worked retail.  I think it's the wording she used, the "taking aside".  It feels condescending to me.  You take aside someone to reprimand them, which is not the appropriate tone for the situation in my opinion.  I think that's what's tripping me up here.  Of course it could have played out much differently in real life but the way it's written just feels off.

You know what else is condescending? You bringing your ass in here telling black folk what they should and shouldn't feel because your ass doesn't feel it. Now, I was nice. I gave very reasoned, non-snark filled responses to you and the person before. But, I'm done with you right now.

Black folks have their panties in a twist about a nation that systematically DENIED them equal rights? That they are reminded by raggedy ass people who think being PC is an affront to humanity about how they were once mocked and sold, beat whipped and raped? All in the name of cotton, sugar cane, rice, and tobacco so that someone else could be wealthy. I'm tired of people like you running around like I should be sitting around overlooking the fact that some shit happened to people who look like me and oh it was many moons ago. NO. Not when I can recite stories from my great-great grandparents about the things they endured. Not when statistics come out everyday about how black kids are disproportionately disciplined vs. their white peers for the same crime. Not when this nation won't even say "Oh shit WE STILL OVA HERE FUCKING UP." 

So what you NOT GONE DO is come up in here talking bout folks got their panties and a twist acting like you are the authority on all things black. Take your narrow ass over there and SAT DOWN. Grown folks are talking. 

[heliocentric]

I am embarrassed to admit that it would not have occurred to me that cotton was offensive prior to reading this thread. Now I can see it.

I do want to add that Brooks Brothers often uses Supima cotton which is grown in America (and so I assume has better regulations than other countries, but I could be wrong). It's possible they were advertising that and not just using cotton because they thought it was decorative. I know they've sent me post card advertisements talking about Supima. That doesn't mean they shouldn't know better...

[cattledogkisses]

I'm not black, but I'm going to guess that black people get pretty sick and tired of having to "just brush it off" all the time. Telling them that they should just move along like its NBD comes across as a little condescending, and a lot privileged.

[NitaX]

Dec 11, 2014 12:37:19 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

I'm not black, but I'm going to guess that black people get pretty sick and tired of having to "just brush it off" all the time. Telling them that they should just move along like its NBD comes across as a little condescending, and a lot privileged.

GIRL. This right here STAYS setting me off. You have no right to be upset; you have it so GOOD now. Wait - Hayworth? Is that you?

[00janelane00]

Dec 11, 2014 12:24:43 GMT -5 @smorriso said:

Dec 11, 2014 12:19:27 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

1. No, I'm saying it is offensive but I just let it go.  Move on with your day.  Why would I let some old lady get my panties in a twist? 

2. I also was not putting out bales of cotton, nor have I ever seen this type of display.  The only time I remember anyone in my community getting pissed off about a display is when we got Victoria's Secret in the mall about 12 years ago and the mannequins displayed underwear for all the children to see (the horror!!!).  So you can tell the type of small town I'm living in.  Like I said, my experience is not yours but I'm sure my complaint to my manager about a cotton display would have been shut down.  I'm sure this would not be uncommon in small town America. 

3. Of course she can say she's offended.  I fielded many complaints, legitimate and ridiculous when I worked retail.  I think it's the wording she used, the "taking aside".  It feels condescending to me.  You take aside someone to reprimand them, which is not the appropriate tone for the situation in my opinion.  I think that's what's tripping me up here.  Of course it could have played out much differently in real life but the way it's written just feels off.

Your privilege is outstanding. I know NitaX will respond on her own, but pay attention. These little agressions are what lead to concepts that black people are this or that. This or that often are dangerous and/or damaging in different scenarios.

One person judging a black sounding name, just shrug it off, right? No Keisha should be able to get a job just as much as Emily, but that isn't the case because people think it's not big deal.

A kid wearing a hood in the rain grabbing snacks from a store and walking home, no big deal, until their black and get killed because of it. Small, unassuming understandings begin to build a much bigger picture. This picture is harmful and out right dangerous for black people (see protests). 

It is so damn easy to shrug it off because your quality as a white person isn't threatened, and you're physical person, economic status, and opportunities aren't affected either. It is NOT the same for black people. So before you jump your ass back into a conversation saying to just brush it off, fucking pay attention to what your implying and what the repercussions are for someone who isn't white.

Are you responding to what I said in number 1?  See my later response.  Like I said, I'm rushed here and that's why I never posted before.  Am I privileged?  Yes, I'm white.  So how are my suggestions to brush it off even relevant to someone black, or really not even in my socioeconomic status?  Probably not very relevant but ya know, it's a message board and those are my feelings.

[cookiemdough]

Dec 11, 2014 12:36:12 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

Dec 11, 2014 12:33:04 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

This smacks of how dare a black person try to tell me what to do. If you are a sales associate, part of your job is to consider satisfaction of your customers. All of your customers. So you will consider trivial complaints like wait times for a dressing room or not having a size 8 in stock, but stuff like taking down a marketing display that is racially offensive is beneath your consideration? Okay.

Uh, no I'm saying my broke ass wouldn't want to get fired for dismantling a display.  When I worked retail I was not a manager.  If I were a manager this would be a different conversation. 

Um no, re-read your post. You are talking about tone, how dare she "reprimand" a sales associate (when she did no such thing), how people should move along with their day and that you think it is not even worth bringing up to a manager something like "this". You are part of the problem. Not processing a return is like defcon 3 up in a store but having a racially charged display is nbd.

[00janelane00]

If you guys don't want me to post again, that's fine. I'll take my ball home. I feel like a little league kid that called up the big leagues by posting with you guys.
I feel like you are all thinking very big picture and I'm thinking small. If you feel I'm condescending or I'm trying to act like an authority on all thing black (??), I'm sorry and that was not my intention at all. I was only trying to relate my hellish days of retail to this article and obviously, failed miserably.

[cville]

Dec 11, 2014 12:49:27 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

If you guys don't want me to post again, that's fine. I'll take my ball home. I feel like a little league kid that called up the big leagues by posting with you guys.
I feel like you are all thinking very big picture and I'm thinking small. If you feel I'm condescending or I'm trying to act like an authority on all thing black (??), I'm sorry and that was not my intention at all. I was only trying to relate my hellish days of retail to this article and obviously, failed miserably.

I'm no authority on all things black either, but one thing I see you missing over and over is that the small picture IS the big picture.  Every small interaction that has a disproportionate effect on a single group is part and parcel of the big picture and in fact FORMS the big picture.

Further, this isn't a story about a beleaguered retail worker.  At all.  Helen (or, rather, Brooks Brothers) is a manifestation and example of how society does X all the time and X is wrong because of Y.

[NitaX]

Dec 11, 2014 12:49:27 GMT -5 00janelane00 said:

If you guys don't want me to post again, that's fine. I'll take my ball home. I feel like a little league kid that called up the big leagues by posting with you guys.
I feel like you are all thinking very big picture and I'm thinking small. If you feel I'm condescending or I'm trying to act like an authority on all thing black (??), I'm sorry and that was not my intention at all. I was only trying to relate my hellish days of retail to this article and obviously, failed miserably.

Everyone else has said "Huh, who'd have thunk it." "Wow, very different perspective." However, you come in and are like I'm not offended. She might want to get over herself. Talk to corporate, people mistake me for the clerk, no biggie. You just rolled completely over how other people - not like you - view things. 4 whole pages of explaining cotton, it's hallmark to American slavery, continued cotton atrocities in another nation in MODERN DAY, and still blew it all off.

We got you the first time on how you you weren't offended. No one came for you even then. I said - No, it's odd to assume people can't be offended because you are. But NAH - it's still condescending. Bruh. Like for real tho? That's when folks suit up and come for you because we assume you aren't reading the responses and viewing it from another perspective. That's why I clicked. Now, if you want to stay engaged, by all means do so, but Imma need you to choose your words a bit more carefully.