Is cotton offensive to black people?

[sandsonik]

Dec 14, 2014 20:12:18 GMT -5 katfco said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:07:48 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

With cotton, if I felt that the cotton display was a statement about race, I would find it abhorrent.  If it was in another venue than next to a display of cotton shirts, I would object.  As it is, I find it a bit odd, but believe it was decorative and supposed to illustrate the natural (and perhaps local?) nature of the material.

Around here it's pussy willow displays, or corn stalks in the fall which make no sense whatsoever.

So does it only count as abhorrent if there was intent? Couldn't there have been unintentional offense and it still be something that needed correction and discussion? 

Good question.

I don't know.

I'm still trying to work out whether an inanimate object like a cotton boll should be recognized as offensive in and of itself without further context.

For me, I'd need further context to be positive that it was offensive whether or not offense was unintentional.

[katfco]

Dec 14, 2014 20:24:42 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:12:18 GMT -5 katfco said:

So does it only count as abhorrent if there was intent? Couldn't there have been unintentional offense and it still be something that needed correction and discussion? 

Good question.

I don't know.

I'm still trying to work out whether an inanimate object like a cotton boll should be recognized as offensive in and of itself without further context.

For me, I'd need further context to be positive that it was offensive whether or not offense was unintentional.

But the offense can still be offensive even if it was born out of ignorance, and it's only through respectful discussion that people become less ignorant about symbols that offend others. 

[sandsonik]

Dec 14, 2014 20:14:31 GMT -5 NitaX said:

And again - this thread is about how we, other black folks of CEP, can understand the writer's point. All we've done is explain why it's not a leap to be offended. And the reason is that for US - we can't take those images and compartmentalize them.

Ok, fair enough.

Is it wrong if others can?

[mx27]

Dec 14, 2014 20:21:18 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:18:33 GMT -5 mx27 said:

I never said anything about whether it is or should be offensive.  People have a right to feel however they want to.

All I said was that she presumes to know how an entire group of people feel about raw cotton, which she can't possibly know.

She CAN possibly know because of shared history. It's as simple as that.

I disagree.  

A shared history doesn't mean everyone feels the same way about that history.  Black people are not a monolith.  

[NitaX]

Dec 14, 2014 20:24:42 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:12:18 GMT -5 katfco said:

So does it only count as abhorrent if there was intent? Couldn't there have been unintentional offense and it still be something that needed correction and discussion? 

Good question.

I don't know.

I'm still trying to work out whether an inanimate object like a cotton boll should be recognized as offensive in and of itself without further context.

For me, I'd need further context to be positive that it was offensive whether or not offense was unintentional.

Again, you don't have to have intent to offend. Using the same example, do you dismiss a family member's feelings when you unintentionally say something that hurts their feelings? I'm going to guess no. While it certainly helps that you didn't mean to say it, it doesn't diminish the sting once the words are uttered.

You can't come to my house and say "OMG, look, I have a cool way to decorate your house" and then bring in some cotton bolls and cotton plants. You are going to get me saying "You have lost your damn mind." Cotton plants are not happy things that get placed in my house for decorations because someone who looked like me - someone whose line I came from had to pick it for hard labor. I can't divorce that image just because white folks don't have that image.

This isn't about how you perceive the world. It's about how others perceive it.

[katfco]

Dec 14, 2014 20:30:18 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:14:31 GMT -5 NitaX said:

And again - this thread is about how we, other black folks of CEP, can understand the writer's point. All we've done is explain why it's not a leap to be offended. And the reason is that for US - we can't take those images and compartmentalize them.

Ok, fair enough.

Is it wrong if others can?

I believe what's wrong is that you seem to be having trouble demonstrating a respect for their point of view. 

[sandsonik]

Dec 14, 2014 20:29:33 GMT -5 katfco said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:24:42 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Good question.

I don't know.

I'm still trying to work out whether an inanimate object like a cotton boll should be recognized as offensive in and of itself without further context.

For me, I'd need further context to be positive that it was offensive whether or not offense was unintentional.

But the offense can still be offensive even if it was born out of ignorance, and it's only through respectful discussion that people become less ignorant about symbols that offend others. 

But can't it be the case that sometimes cotton is a symbol and sometimes cotton is just cotton?

If not, then maybe we should just stop using it.

[pixy0stix]

Dec 14, 2014 20:30:32 GMT -5 mx27 said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:21:18 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

She CAN possibly know because of shared history. It's as simple as that.

I disagree.  

A shared history doesn't mean everyone feels the same way about that history.  Black people are not a monolith.  

Did you skip the entirety of the rest of the thread?

[NitaX]

Dec 14, 2014 20:30:32 GMT -5 mx27 said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:21:18 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

She CAN possibly know because of shared history. It's as simple as that.

I disagree.  

A shared history doesn't mean everyone feels the same way about that history.  Black people are not a monolith.  

While some in this thread have said they are not offended, they do understand the offense. You don't need to take a poll and have 99.9% of black people vote offensive before saying this display may be offensive to some. 

[NewOrleans]

Dec 14, 2014 20:30:18 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:14:31 GMT -5 NitaX said:

And again - this thread is about how we, other black folks of CEP, can understand the writer's point. All we've done is explain why it's not a leap to be offended. And the reason is that for US - we can't take those images and compartmentalize them.

Ok, fair enough.

Is it wrong if others can?

No.  It is simply unequal BECAUSE others can.  The ability to do so is the definition of privilege.

It becomes "wrong" when you don't validate or try to understand when they say something is offensive.  Or downplay it as a century-old stigma, comparable to a crummy summer job, analogous to the Potato Famine.

[gpw]

This is exhausting. I'm going on caps lock Nugget T. Brain, The OG style.

IT'S NOT COTTON AS AN END PRODUCT. KEEP YOUR OXFORDS AND CHINOS. IT'S COTTON AS "LOOK AT THIS RAW STALK OF COTTON! I'M GOING TO USE IT AS DECORATION BECAUSE ISN'T IT COOL AND NOSTALGIC?"

[katfco]

Dec 14, 2014 20:34:07 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:29:33 GMT -5 katfco said:

But the offense can still be offensive even if it was born out of ignorance, and it's only through respectful discussion that people become less ignorant about symbols that offend others. 

But can't it be the case that sometimes cotton is a symbol and sometimes cotton is just cotton?

If not, then maybe we should just stop using it.

Sometimes a star is just a star, too, but in different contexts, it's disturbing and symbolic. From what I've learned in this thread, using raw cotton stalks as decorative pieces ignores the deep and painful history connected to a large population of this country, and yes, then maybe we should just stop using it that way. 

[mx27]

Dec 14, 2014 20:35:19 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:30:32 GMT -5 mx27 said:

I disagree.  

A shared history doesn't mean everyone feels the same way about that history.  Black people are not a monolith.  

While some in this thread have said they are not offended, they do understand the offense. You don't need to take a poll and have 99.9% of black people vote offensive before saying this display may be offensive to some. 

"May be offensive to some."

i agree.

offensive to all.

i have no idea and neither does the author.

[NitaX]

Dec 14, 2014 20:38:46 GMT -5 mx27 said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:35:19 GMT -5 NitaX said:

While some in this thread have said they are not offended, they do understand the offense. You don't need to take a poll and have 99.9% of black people vote offensive before saying this display may be offensive to some. 

"May be offensive to some."

i agree.

offensive to all.

i have no idea and neither does the author.

The author's closing statement includes a litany of microagressions - it's not only cotton that she's deeming offensive. It's being followed, being assumed to be the help, etc. She's taking all of these things in their totality of an overall experience. That's how I read it. 

ETA the second to last paragraph:

"It’s about much more than the cotton, which after all, is a pretty rare sight in most high-end stories. It’s about the assumptions, the attitudes, and the microaggressions that hang like a cloud over all Black shoppers, especially in businesses that seem incompatible with our demographics. The sheer energy of being watched, followed, spoken down to and taken for a faceless employee for no reason other than our Blackness, means we must brace ourselves for whatever indignities a simple shopping trip might bring our way.
"

[sandsonik]

Dec 14, 2014 20:43:58 GMT -5 @smorriso said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:07:48 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Show me where I said "those crazy CEPers".  Because I'm trying to have an in depth, respectful and yes, CIVIL, conversation.

But as to your example, I could also give 200+ thoughtful replies why the way people talk about old people is offensive here, but it wouldn't change your mind. Generalizations about race, gender or sexual preference are abhorrent but generalizations based on age are completely acceptable here.  I don't apologize for fighting against that ignorance.  It shocks me that it's so prevalent here.

With cotton, if I felt that the cotton display was a statement about race, I would find it abhorrent.  If it was in another venue than next to a display of cotton shirts, I would object.  As it is, I find it a bit odd, but believe it was decorative and supposed to illustrate the natural (and perhaps local?) nature of the material.

Around here it's pussy willow displays, or corn stalks in the fall which make no sense whatsoever.

You weren't civil. You might not have thrown outright insults but your response was far from civil.

My reference to the crazy CEPers was your first response of grouping all of us together. Which is an insult in itself. Just because you're on the outside of an argument doesn't mean we're mindless posters, herding together on a topic. So check yourself and your posts. I'd copy your original post but I'm on my phone.

Also, it's insulting to have a thread full of black people telling you a store display is offensive to black people and because of your fucked up sensibilities, you don't agree. Then you're able to tell us what is right and not to be bothered or offended. Fuck that.

I'm not trying to tell you what is right.

I was trying to tell you how I felt on the subject.  Isn't that what we do here?

I realize now that how I feel does not matter.

So  please ignore me and pay no more attention to my posts, because I wouldn't want to upset you.

[gpw]

Dec 14, 2014 20:50:27 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:43:58 GMT -5 @smorriso said:

You weren't civil. You might not have thrown outright insults but your response was far from civil.

My reference to the crazy CEPers was your first response of grouping all of us together. Which is an insult in itself. Just because you're on the outside of an argument doesn't mean we're mindless posters, herding together on a topic. So check yourself and your posts. I'd copy your original post but I'm on my phone.

Also, it's insulting to have a thread full of black people telling you a store display is offensive to black people and because of your fucked up sensibilities, you don't agree. Then you're able to tell us what is right and not to be bothered or offended. Fuck that.

I'm not trying to tell you what is right.

I was trying to tell you how I felt on the subject.  Isn't that what we do here?

I realize now that how I feel does not matter.

So  please ignore me and pay no more attention to my posts, because I wouldn't want to upset you.

To  be honest, in a way, it doesn't matter how you feel.  What matters is that there are many black people who *do* see that sort of cotton display as offensive.  Why isn't that enough for you?  They were explaining it all patient and nice.  As white people we don't get to decide whether something like that is offensive or not.  We just don't. 

[sparrowsong]

I really have no idea how there are people who can hear this and not immediately understand the response. A white person might look at a stalk of raw cotton and think, "Hey that's cool. That's how cotton balls grow. Ohh, this is a pretty shirt..." A black person whose entire life experience is being black in American and knowing that their ancestors were slaves might think, "Oh, that's how cotton grows and how my family members had to spend hours and hours day after day with bleeding fingers and aching backs, pulling that stuff out of the pods." It's really not a big leap to see why that is an immediate association.

No one is asking white people to have the same reaction, just to realize why it could easily be offensive to a black person. It's about listening.

[tef]

Dec 14, 2014 19:17:42 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

I am always excited when the term "the blacks" makes an appearance in a thread. Clearly a sign of good things to come.

Tbf, she is only saying it as Pixy said it (on purpose, I know).  Quotes would have served her better.  

The he rest, yeah, still reading.

[gpw]

Dec 14, 2014 20:57:47 GMT -5 @smorriso said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:50:27 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

I'm not trying to tell you what is right.

I was trying to tell you how I felt on the subject.  Isn't that what we do here?

I realize now that how I feel does not matter.

So  please ignore me and pay no more attention to my posts, because I wouldn't want to upset you.

[

Clearly too late. But I'm still holding out hope that you're smarter than that and you're choosing to deflect, using passive aggressive posts to continue to show your ass.

You're in here trying to tell a minority group that what is legitimately offensive to them, is just a harmless store display. That is offensive and insensitive. Something you've blasted this board about time and time again. Especially when our responses weren't directed at you. (I.e. Old people thread) So yes. Fuck that and your ignorant but loud opinion on the interpretations of black folks sensibilities.

[NitaX]

Dec 14, 2014 21:01:43 GMT -5 sparrowsong said:

I really have no idea there are people who can hear this and not immediately understand the response. A white person might look at a stalk of raw cotton and think, "Hey that's cool. That's how cotton balls grow. Ohh, this is a pretty shirt..." A black person whose entire life experience is being black in American and knowing that their ancestors were slaves might think, "Oh, that's how cotton grows and how my family members had to spend hours and hours day after day with bleeding fingers and aching backs, pulling that stuff out of the pods." It's really not a big leap to see why that is an immediate association.

No one is asking white people to have the same reaction, just to realize why it could easily be offensive to a black person. It's about listening.

This is nice and all, Imma let you finish, but, we black folk aren't supposed to be upset about cotton because white folk aren't offended. I need you to keep up. LOL

[cookiemdough]

So Friday I went to Costco. At the membership counter a white woman walked up broke line and demanded a manger. Manager comes out. She proceeds to go off because a sales associate suggested she go to the front to get a cart rather than take one of the carts they were using for stocking. The woman went off talking about I am not going to be told to get a cart by a gotdamn sales associate. She must not know me. I also have a bad back ( forget she was shopping in freaking Costco with heals on), and I shouldn't have been asked to get a cart.

The manger was patient. Tried to talk her down and took her ridiculous concerns seriously. For 10 minutes at least...he was still talking to her when I left the line. So when I see stuff like that and then come in this post where people are acting like asking for some consideration for a display that was racially insensitive is somehow way out of line I am quite frankly flabbergasted.

[sparrowsong]

Dec 14, 2014 21:03:37 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Dec 14, 2014 21:01:43 GMT -5 sparrowsong said:

I really have no idea there are people who can hear this and not immediately understand the response. A white person might look at a stalk of raw cotton and think, "Hey that's cool. That's how cotton balls grow. Ohh, this is a pretty shirt..." A black person whose entire life experience is being black in American and knowing that their ancestors were slaves might think, "Oh, that's how cotton grows and how my family members had to spend hours and hours day after day with bleeding fingers and aching backs, pulling that stuff out of the pods." It's really not a big leap to see why that is an immediate association.

No one is asking white people to have the same reaction, just to realize why it could easily be offensive to a black person. It's about listening.

This is nice and all, Imma let you finish, but, we black folk aren't supposed to be upset about cotton because white folk aren't offended. I need you to keep up. LOL

What? I'm confused. I'm just expressing my total bafflement with sandonsilk's not getting it. I don't think it's even a hard thing to get. 

[NewOrleans]

Dec 14, 2014 21:07:30 GMT -5 sparrowsong said:

Dec 14, 2014 21:03:37 GMT -5 NitaX said:

This is nice and all, Imma let you finish, but, we black folk aren't supposed to be upset about cotton because white folk aren't offended. I need you to keep up. LOL

What? I'm confused. I'm just expressing my total bafflement with sandonsilk's not getting it. I don't think it's even a hard thing to get. 

she's saying you get it and haven't even read the whole thread, whereas others have had it explained repeatedly but still conclude that cotton is pretty like potatoes are delicious.

[NitaX]

Dec 14, 2014 21:07:30 GMT -5 sparrowsong said:

Dec 14, 2014 21:03:37 GMT -5 NitaX said:

This is nice and all, Imma let you finish, but, we black folk aren't supposed to be upset about cotton because white folk aren't offended. I need you to keep up. LOL

What? I'm confused. I'm just expressing my total bafflement with sandonsilk's not getting it. I don't think it's even a hard thing to get. 

You know why you get it? Groupthink.

[NewOrleans]

Dec 14, 2014 21:16:02 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Dec 14, 2014 21:07:30 GMT -5 sparrowsong said:

What? I'm confused. I'm just expressing my total bafflement with sandonsilk's not getting it. I don't think it's even a hard thing to get. 

You know why you get it? Groupthink.

you know what to do.  

------------------------------------------------>

[teflepi]

Dec 14, 2014 21:02:08 GMT -5 tef said:

Dec 14, 2014 19:17:42 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

I am always excited when the term "the blacks" makes an appearance in a thread. Clearly a sign of good things to come.

Tbf, she is only saying it as Pixy said it (on purpose, I know).  Quotes would have served her better.  

The he rest, yeah, still reading.

I just saw the second one.  Nevermind my try.

Sandsonik-you need to really look what people are saying here, why things matter, what micro aggressions are and how people are impacted by them. You really can learn a lot.   I get what it is like to dig in your heals, but this isn't the thread for that.  As someone who has gone off half-cocked in a thread or 3 before, I get it.  But, this one. THIS ONE is not the one to do it.  Please, read and absorb.  

[NitaX]

Dec 14, 2014 21:17:11 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Dec 14, 2014 21:16:02 GMT -5 NitaX said:

You know why you get it? Groupthink.

you know what to do.  

------------------------------------------------>

That's cool. I ain't trippin'. Imma take me and my Groupthink Golden Oreos to Penthouse Suite in the corner.

[teflepi]

Dec 14, 2014 19:34:26 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 19:08:50 GMT -5 Nugget T. Brain, The OG said:

......I'm sorry, did you just try and compare your crappy summer job packing snaps to slavery and picking cotton?

Why does it feel like you only show up on the board now to piss people off or get everyone in a tizzy?

No, I most certainly did not do that.  Read again.  I said that's why I might hate the sight of snaps, but I can't expect everyone else to feel the same way.

Did you just suggest that you picked cotton as a slave and that's why you hate the sight of cotton?

I missed this one as I missed a whole page.....

[sandsonik]

Dec 14, 2014 20:53:07 GMT -5 gpw said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:50:27 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

I'm not trying to tell you what is right.

I was trying to tell you how I felt on the subject.  Isn't that what we do here?

I realize now that how I feel does not matter.

So  please ignore me and pay no more attention to my posts, because I wouldn't want to upset you.

To  be honest, in a way, it doesn't matter how you feel.  What matters is that there are many black people who *do* see that sort of cotton display as offensive.  Why isn't that enough for you?  They were explaining it all patient and nice.  As white people we don't get to decide whether something like that is offensive or not.  We just don't. 

Stop staring, didn't I JUST SAY THAT?

[sandsonik]

Dec 14, 2014 20:57:47 GMT -5 @smorriso said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:50:27 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

I'm not trying to tell you what is right.

I was trying to tell you how I felt on the subject.  Isn't that what we do here?

I realize now that how I feel does not matter.

So  please ignore me and pay no more attention to my posts, because I wouldn't want to upset you.

[

Clearly too late. But I'm still holding out hope that you're smarter than that and you're choosing to deflect, using passive aggressive posts to continue to show your ass.

You're in here trying to tell a minority group that what is legitimately offensive to them, is just a harmless store display. That is offensive and insensitive. Something you've blasted this board about time and time again. Especially when our responses weren't directed at you. (I.e. Old people thread) So yes. Fuck that and your ignorant but loud opinion on the interpretations of black folks sensibilities.

Smo, once more I don't believe I ever tried to say how blacks should feel.  If I did, I misspoke.

I only stated my take on the subject.  Not white peoples, black peoples or any other group, just mine.

I apologize if I gave the impression I was telling black people how to feel.

Now will you please quit swearing at me?