Is cotton offensive to black people?

[NitaX]

Dec 14, 2014 21:38:50 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:57:47 GMT -5 @smorriso said:

[

Clearly too late. But I'm still holding out hope that you're smarter than that and you're choosing to deflect, using passive aggressive posts to continue to show your ass.

You're in here trying to tell a minority group that what is legitimately offensive to them, is just a harmless store display. That is offensive and insensitive. Something you've blasted this board about time and time again. Especially when our responses weren't directed at you. (I.e. Old people thread) So yes. Fuck that and your ignorant but loud opinion on the interpretations of black folks sensibilities.

Smo, once more I don't believe I ever tried to say how blacks should feel.  If I did, I misspoke.

I only stated my take on the subject.  Not white peoples, black peoples or any other group, just mine.

I apologize if I gave the impression I was telling black people how to feel.

Now will you please quit swearing at me?

So did a number of other posters. Several people said "I would have never made that connection." That's what this thread is about - how one person's idea of cotton doesn't encompass others. 

No one in this thread got upset about the idea that folks can't grasp the concept until told - get over yourselves. Most of the pages are dialogue about slavery, cotton, views, and the mess happening in other countries.

[gpw]

Dec 14, 2014 21:34:29 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:53:07 GMT -5 gpw said:

To  be honest, in a way, it doesn't matter how you feel.  What matters is that there are many black people who *do* see that sort of cotton display as offensive.  Why isn't that enough for you?  They were explaining it all patient and nice.  As white people we don't get to decide whether something like that is offensive or not.  We just don't. 

Stop staring, didn't I JUST SAY THAT?

[SmartyCat]

Jumping in at an awkward time - just want to say thanks for posting the article, and thanks to those who articulated why the display would be found offensive. Having grown up a. white and b. in the Pacific NW where cotton does not grow, it wouldn't have occurred to me. I imagine it gets tiresome to have to spell it out, but just want to say it's appreciated. Also, it served up a handy illustration in a conversation with DH of how "your/our 'common sense' is not necessarily the same thing as EVERYONE's 'common sense'".

[sandsonik]

Dec 14, 2014 21:56:03 GMT -5 gpw said:

Dec 14, 2014 21:34:29 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Stop staring, didn't I JUST SAY THAT?

I'm sorry, what's the matter?

The caps?

[gpw]

Dec 14, 2014 21:58:15 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 21:56:03 GMT -5 gpw said:

I'm sorry, what's the matter?

The caps?

no, the intentional obtuseness

[sandsonik]

Dec 14, 2014 21:58:15 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 21:56:03 GMT -5 gpw said:

I'm sorry, what's the matter?

The caps?  What did I do wrong now?  I agreed with you.

[sandsonik]

Dec 14, 2014 21:59:22 GMT -5 gpw said:

Dec 14, 2014 21:58:15 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

I'm sorry, what's the matter?

The caps?

no, the intentional obtuseness

Please explain, because I don't understand.

[aurora]

I missed a good portion of this thread because I've been working most of the damned weekend but I just wanted to say, sincerely, thanks again to CEP for helping me to see another example of a micro-aggression that I honestly would have walked right by without noticing before this thread. You are great!

[hopecounts]

Dec 14, 2014 20:30:18 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 14, 2014 20:14:31 GMT -5 NitaX said:

And again - this thread is about how we, other black folks of CEP, can understand the writer's point. All we've done is explain why it's not a leap to be offended. And the reason is that for US - we can't take those images and compartmentalize them.

Ok, fair enough.

Is it wrong if others can?

it's wrong to ignore it if it is problematic for others.
there are many inanimate objects/symbols/etc that are generally not displayed because it is considered in bad taste.
When its clear that a significant portion of the country are troubled by raw cotton and its history (and as a white southerner I can tell you getting away from cottons history is next to impossible, it is what it is and it's wrong to pretend otherwise) then we need to be sensitive to that.

[SallyJ]

Ok sandsonik I'm going explain how you offended and insulted people, displayed your privilege, and lacked empathy. I hope this helps you understand. I'm not doing it to intentionally be mean, but you really don't seem to get it.

You insulted the posters on CEP by starting with:
"CEP has officially jumped the shark and crawled up its own butt, all in one thread."
HOW DOES THIS INVITE CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT?

You continued insulting CEP with:
"Group think on this board"
HOW DOES THIS INVITE CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT?
"Is it now an echo chamber?"
AGAIN, HOW DOES THIS INVITE CONTINUED CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON IMPORTANT SUBJECT?

Then you trivialized slavery with ridiculous comparisons and dismissive words, even turning it around that 'white people suffered too!':
"putting an ear of corn next to a popcorn display"
AN EAR OF CORN IS NOT LIKE A BALE OF COTTON IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY
"some century old stigma"
THIS IS SO INCREDIBLY DISMISSIVE AND READS AS 'GET OVER IT'. WOULD YOU EVER SAY, SOME 70 YEAR OLD STIGMA WHEN DISCUSSING THE HOLOCAUST? RACE ISSUES STILL EXIST, THEY AREN'T HUNDREDS OF YEARS OLD.
"like those who can feel morally comfortable eating meat"
SLAVERY ISN'T LIKE VEGETARIANISM
"many of my forefathers perished because of cruel polices that left them but potatoes to eat"
SLAVERY ISN'T LIKE WHITE PEOPLE DYING DURING THE POTATO FAMINE
"I had a crappy summer job once packaging snaps on an assembly line and I never want to see another snap again"
SLAVERY ISN'T LIKE A CRAPPY SUMMER JOB, NOR IS IT ANYTHING LIKE BEING A BLACK PERSON IN AMERICA
"Pussy willow displays or corn stalks in the fall which make no sense whatsoever"
PUSSY WILLOWS AND CORN STALKS AREN'T LIKE COTTON BALES IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY

You trivialized other people's visceral feelings on the image of raw cotton being a symbol for slavery, and showed a complete lack of empathy, even when people told you insulted them:
"I don't understand the point of hating cotton"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT UNDERSTAND HATING COTTON
"I didn't insult anyone"
YOU DID INSULT PEOPLE AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT OR YOU DIDN'T CARE
"There was just cotton"
IT'S NOT JUST COTTON IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY
"There's no 'good' use of a swastika, which is and always has been completely symbolic"
SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND HOW SOMETHING CAN BE A HORRIBLE AWFUL SYMBOL FOR SOMETHING ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC?  UNLESS ITS A SYMBOL FOR SLAVERY?
"But can't it be the case that sometimes cotton is a symbol and sometimes cotton is just cotton?"
COTTON IS NOT JUST COTTON IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY.

You lack even the understanding that being servant is horrible and awful and that the term 'the help' is code for 'servant':
"Not that there is anything wrong with being a servant"
YES THERE ABSOLUTELY IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH BEING A SERVANT.  IT DIDN'T ALWAYS MEAN BEING EMPLOYED.  IT USED TO MEAN SLAVERY OR INDENTURED SERVITUDE.
"It's annoying sometimes, but there are more offensive things than people assuming you have a job."
BEING ASSUMED A SERVANT OR 'THE HELP' IS NOT REMOTELY THE SAME HAS SOMEONE ASSUMING YOU HAVE A JOB.  IT DIDN'T ALWAYS MEAN BEING EMPLOYED. IT USED TO MEAN SLAVERY OR INDENTURED SERVITUDE.

You 'other' black people by calling them blacks or the blacks which blatantly offensive because they are PEOPLE:
"Look at all the times blacks get followed around stores like thieves, or have it implied that they can't afford to purchase the items there"
PEOPLE.  THEY ARE PEOPLE.
"Where the FUCK did I ever say the blacks should forget history?"
PEOPLE. THEY ARE PEOPLE.


You showed a complete lack of empathy when all of your arguments centered around how this situation makes you feel, as a white person:
"I don't find it demoralizing"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT FIND IT DEMORALIZING
"...is splitting hairs to me"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO MAY NOT SEE THE MICROAGGRESSION
"If I felt that the cotton display was a statement about race, I would find it abhorrent"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT SEE THE DISPLAY AS A STATEMENT ABOUT RACE
"I find it a bit odd"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY ONLY SEE IT AS ODD
"I'm still trying to work out whether an inanimate object like cotton boll should be recognized as offensive in and of itself without further context"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT SEE COTTON AS A SYMBOL OF SLAVERY AND BE OFFENDED BY IT
"Is it wrong if others can [compartmentalize images of slaves picking cotton]?"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF COMPARTMENTALIZING THOSE IMAGES OF SLAVES PICKING COTTON.
"I was trying to tell you how I felt on the subject."
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY THINK YOUR FEELINGS ARE OF MORE IMPORTANCE AND AS SUCH, YOU COME ACROSS AS 'GET OVER IT'
"I only stated my take on the subject"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY THINK YOUR FEELINGS ARE OF MORE IMPORTANCE AND AS SUCH, YOU COME ACROSS AS 'GET OVER IT'

Now do you see in it's entirety where you failed?  Failed to have empathy.  Failed to be aware of your race privilege?  Failed to have a civil discussion?  Failed at not insulting?  How hard is to simply say:
"Wow, I had never even considered this viewpoint at all. It's hard for me because I don't share those strong feelings on the image of cotton being a symbol of slavery. You're right, if it has such a strong negative symbolism and connotation, we should stop using it in this manner."

Instead you argued that your feelings are equally valid and important on the matter, and you wanted others to validate your feelings. You don't need validation of your feelings in this situation because you hold the race privilege.  So stop.  Stop and empathize.  

[elleblue]

This thread blew up again and I'm working my way through it but I just had to comment (too soon I know, since I haven't finished reading) because I am simply agog at the comparison of a crappy summer job working an assembly line with slavery and forced labor. I just. I mean...I honestly haven't the words. 

Eta: Also - it says so much about a person's mindset when they refer to a segment of the population as "blacks" (vs. black people). How often do they use the term "whites", I wonder. 

Eta2: I see this was addressed (still catching up obviously). 

Eta3: WORDS MATTER. How you choose to phrase something ultimately betrays your subconscious thoughts and feelings. 

[sandsonik]

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

Ok sandsonik I'm going explain how you offended and insulted people, displayed your privilege, and lacked empathy. I hope this helps you understand. I'm not doing it to intentionally be mean, but you really don't seem to get it.

You insulted the posters on CEP by starting with:
"CEP has officially jumped the shark and crawled up its own butt, all in one thread."
HOW DOES THIS INVITE CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT?

Fair enough. I forgot I had started with that post. It struck me as typical CEP, people arguing over what was offensive or not, to the seemingly inane point of being offended by a plant.

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

You continued insulting CEP with:
"Group think on this board"
HOW DOES THIS INVITE CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT?
"Is it now an echo chamber?"
AGAIN, HOW DOES THIS INVITE CONTINUED CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON IMPORTANT SUBJECT?

You're probably right. In my defense, I was being sworn at and attacked left and right at that point and it certainly felt like group swarm. I'd post to one person and receive three or four biting replies or silly gifs so I was swinging wildly back.
[/quote]

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

Then you trivialized slavery

No, no, no, I have to object to that. I never trivialized slavery.

And I never compared any suffering and said it was the 'same'.

My point, which was missed, was that lots of us have things that trigger deep pain in us, but is it reasonable to expect to never see those things in public? Some things that cause memories of pain to one person cause remembrances of joy to another. THAT was the point I was failing to make, I think.

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

You trivialized other people's visceral feelings on the image of raw cotton being a symbol for slavery, and showed a complete lack of empathy, even when people told you insulted them:
"I don't understand the point of hating cotton"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT UNDERSTAND HATING COTTON
"I didn't insult anyone"
YOU DID INSULT PEOPLE AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT OR YOU DIDN'T CARE
"There was just cotton"
IT'S NOT JUST COTTON IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY

I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

"There's no 'good' use of a swastika, which is and always has been completely symbolic"
SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND HOW SOMETHING CAN BE A HORRIBLE AWFUL SYMBOL FOR SOMETHING ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC?  UNLESS ITS A SYMBOL FOR SLAVERY?
"But can't it be the case that sometimes cotton is a symbol and sometimes cotton is just cotton?"
COTTON IS NOT JUST COTTON IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY.

In the context of slavery, no. I absolutely do understand that. But I didn't think Brooks Brothers was using it in the context of slavery, it was in the context of cotton shirts. That's part of the disconnect I'm not comprehending. A swastika is awful and we don't use it. Period. The N Word is awful and we don't use it. Period. Cotton is awful, but it's ok to use. But it's offensive. That part confuses me. Shouldn't it be boycotted?

I know how sick it makes me feel when people on this board go all ga ga for the Royal Family. I wish we didn't put up with it; they're a historical symbol of oppression to so many worldwide and parasitic leaches in the present tense. So I could understand saying no to cotton.

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

"You lack even the understanding that being servant is horrible and awful and that the term 'the help' is code for 'servant':
"Not that there is anything wrong with being a servant"
YES THERE ABSOLUTELY IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH BEING A SERVANT.  IT DIDN'T ALWAYS MEAN BEING EMPLOYED.  IT USED TO MEAN SLAVERY OR INDENTURED SERVITUDE.
"It's annoying sometimes, but there are more offensive things than people assuming you have a job."
BEING ASSUMED A SERVANT OR 'THE HELP' IS NOT REMOTELY THE SAME HAS SOMEONE ASSUMING YOU HAVE A JOB.  IT DIDN'T ALWAYS MEAN BEING EMPLOYED. IT USED TO MEAN SLAVERY OR INDENTURED SERVITUDE.]

You've lost me. There's a difference between being a servant or working at Brooks but in any case I would never demean either person for their job. Both deserve respect. That part of the discussion was not about slavery, it was about the author being mistaken for a store clerk.

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

You 'other' black people by calling them blacks or the blacks which blatantly offensive because they are PEOPLE:
"Look at all the times blacks get followed around stores like thieves, or have it implied that they can't afford to purchase the items there"
PEOPLE.  THEY ARE PEOPLE.
"Where the FUCK did I ever say the blacks should forget history?"
PEOPLE. THEY ARE PEOPLE.

You do realize I was quoting someone, right?
Am I othered because you've used 'white people' about six times? Or isn't it just kind of naturally arise in a discussion of how races perceive symbols differently?

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

You showed a complete lack of empathy when all of your arguments centered around how this situation makes you feel, as a white person:
"I don't find it demoralizing"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT FIND IT DEMORALIZING
"...is splitting hairs to me"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO MAY NOT SEE THE MICROAGGRESSION
"If I felt that the cotton display was a statement about race, I would find it abhorrent"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT SEE THE DISPLAY AS A STATEMENT ABOUT RACE
"I find it a bit odd"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY ONLY SEE IT AS ODD
"I'm still trying to work out whether an inanimate object like cotton boll should be recognized as offensive in and of itself without further context"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT SEE COTTON AS A SYMBOL OF SLAVERY AND BE OFFENDED BY IT
"Is it wrong if others can [compartmentalize images of slaves picking cotton]?"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF COMPARTMENTALIZING THOSE IMAGES OF SLAVES PICKING COTTON.
"I was trying to tell you how I felt on the subject."
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY THINK YOUR FEELINGS ARE OF MORE IMPORTANCE AND AS SUCH, YOU COME ACROSS AS 'GET OVER IT'
"I only stated my take on the subject"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY THINK YOUR FEELINGS ARE OF MORE IMPORTANCE AND AS SUCH, YOU COME ACROSS AS 'GET OVER IT'

Or I may not. I don't think my feelings are more important than anyone else's. They're just my feelings.

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

Now do you see in it's entirety where you failed?  Failed to have empathy.  Failed to be aware of your race privilege?  Failed to have a civil discussion?  Failed at not insulting?  How hard is to simply say:
"Wow, I had never even considered this viewpoint at all. It's hard for me because I don't share those strong feelings on the image of cotton being a symbol of slavery. You're right, if it has such a strong negative symbolism and connotation, we should stop using it in this manner."

Instead you argued that your feelings are equally valid and important on the matter, and you wanted others to validate your feelings. You don't need validation of your feelings in this situation because you hold the race privilege.  So stop.  Stop and empathize.  

Yes, I see. I suck. I failed. I half get it and half don't. I have more empathy than you think though.

[sandsonik]

Dec 15, 2014 2:36:51 GMT -5 elleblue said:

This thread blew up again and I'm working my way through it but I just had to comment (too soon I know, since I haven't finished reading) because I am simply agog at the comparison of a crappy summer job working an assembly line with slavery and forced labor. I just. I mean...I honestly haven't the words. 

Is that what you thought I was doing?  Really?

EIther I write very crappily or you read very crappily!  Probably the former.

[elleblue]

Dec 15, 2014 3:19:56 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 2:36:51 GMT -5 elleblue said:

This thread blew up again and I'm working my way through it but I just had to comment (too soon I know, since I haven't finished reading) because I am simply agog at the comparison of a crappy summer job working an assembly line with slavery and forced labor. I just. I mean...I honestly haven't the words. 

Is that what you thought I was doing?  Really?

EIther I write very crappily or you read very crappily!  Probably the former.

That's really how it came across, and given some of the responses in this thread, I'm not the only one who interpreted your comparison in this manner. It seems that that's not at all how you intended to come across, and for that small mercy, I am thankful.

[flamingeaux]

sandsonik,the problem with the author being mistaken for a clerk vs you or I being mistaken for a clerk, is that the color of her skin makes it about 20,000 times more likely to happen to her, than you or me. There is a widespread, long standing, and immediate assumption that if a person black, that person is automatically to be at the bottom of the totem pole, for no reason other than they're black.

[sandsonik]

Dec 15, 2014 3:44:43 GMT -5 flamingeaux said:

sandsonik,the problem with the author being mistaken for a clerk vs you or I being mistaken for a clerk, is that the color of her skin makes it about 20,000 times more likely to happen to her, than you or me. There is a widespread, long standing, and immediate assumption that if a person black, that person is automatically to be at the bottom of the totem pole, for no reason other than they're black.

To be honest, I really don't believe that.  I'm mistaken for a clerk every other time I go shopping.  The store clerks here - and probably most places in the United States - are much more likely to be white than black.

In any case, I resent the implication that a clerk is the bottom of the barrel, someone you look down at.

I look down at no one based on their job and think our society is really fucked up in that the people who do the most awful jobs generally get paid the least.

[elleblue]

Dec 15, 2014 3:16:38 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

Ok sandsonik I'm going explain how you offended and insulted people, displayed your privilege, and lacked empathy. I hope this helps you understand. I'm not doing it to intentionally be mean, but you really don't seem to get it.

You insulted the posters on CEP by starting with:
"CEP has officially jumped the shark and crawled up its own butt, all in one thread."
HOW DOES THIS INVITE CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT?

Fair enough. I forgot I had started with that post. It struck me as typical CEP, people arguing over what was offensive or not, to the seemingly inane point of being offended by a plant.

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

You continued insulting CEP with:
"Group think on this board"
HOW DOES THIS INVITE CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT?
"Is it now an echo chamber?"
AGAIN, HOW DOES THIS INVITE CONTINUED CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON IMPORTANT SUBJECT?

You're probably right. In my defense, I was being sworn at and attacked left and right at that point and it certainly felt like group swarm. I'd post to one person and receive three or four biting replies or silly gifs so I was swinging wildly back.

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

Then you trivialized slavery

No, no, no, I have to object to that. I never trivialized slavery.

And I never compared any suffering and said it was the 'same'.

My point, which was missed, was that lots of us have things that trigger deep pain in us, but is it reasonable to expect to never see those things in public? Some things that cause memories of pain to one person cause remembrances of joy to another. THAT was the point I was failing to make, I think.

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

You trivialized other people's visceral feelings on the image of raw cotton being a symbol for slavery, and showed a complete lack of empathy, even when people told you insulted them:
"I don't understand the point of hating cotton"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT UNDERSTAND HATING COTTON
"I didn't insult anyone"
YOU DID INSULT PEOPLE AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT OR YOU DIDN'T CARE
"There was just cotton"
IT'S NOT JUST COTTON IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY

I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

"There's no 'good' use of a swastika, which is and always has been completely symbolic"
SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND HOW SOMETHING CAN BE A HORRIBLE AWFUL SYMBOL FOR SOMETHING ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC?  UNLESS ITS A SYMBOL FOR SLAVERY?
"But can't it be the case that sometimes cotton is a symbol and sometimes cotton is just cotton?"
COTTON IS NOT JUST COTTON IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY.

In the context of slavery, no. I absolutely do understand that. But I didn't think Brooks Brothers was using it in the context of slavery, it was in the context of cotton shirts. That's part of the disconnect I'm not comprehending. A swastika is awful and we don't use it. Period. The N Word is awful and we don't use it. Period. Cotton is awful, but it's ok to use. But it's offensive. That part confuses me. Shouldn't it be boycotted?

I know how sick it makes me feel when people on this board go all ga ga for the Royal Family. I wish we didn't put up with it; they're a historical symbol of oppression to so many worldwide and parasitic leaches in the present tense. So I could understand saying no to cotton.

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

"You lack even the understanding that being servant is horrible and awful and that the term 'the help' is code for 'servant':
"Not that there is anything wrong with being a servant"
YES THERE ABSOLUTELY IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH BEING A SERVANT.  IT DIDN'T ALWAYS MEAN BEING EMPLOYED.  IT USED TO MEAN SLAVERY OR INDENTURED SERVITUDE.
"It's annoying sometimes, but there are more offensive things than people assuming you have a job."
BEING ASSUMED A SERVANT OR 'THE HELP' IS NOT REMOTELY THE SAME HAS SOMEONE ASSUMING YOU HAVE A JOB.  IT DIDN'T ALWAYS MEAN BEING EMPLOYED. IT USED TO MEAN SLAVERY OR INDENTURED SERVITUDE.]

You've lost me. There's a difference between being a servant or working at Brooks but in any case I would never demean either person for their job. Both deserve respect. That part of the discussion was not about slavery, it was about the author being mistaken for a store clerk.

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

You 'other' black people by calling them blacks or the blacks which blatantly offensive because they are PEOPLE:
"Look at all the times blacks get followed around stores like thieves, or have it implied that they can't afford to purchase the items there"
PEOPLE.  THEY ARE PEOPLE.
"Where the FUCK did I ever say the blacks should forget history?"
PEOPLE. THEY ARE PEOPLE.

You do realize I was quoting someone, right?
Am I othered because you've used 'white people' about six times? Or isn't it just kind of naturally arise in a discussion of how races perceive symbols differently?

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

You showed a complete lack of empathy when all of your arguments centered around how this situation makes you feel, as a white person:
"I don't find it demoralizing"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT FIND IT DEMORALIZING
"...is splitting hairs to me"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO MAY NOT SEE THE MICROAGGRESSION
"If I felt that the cotton display was a statement about race, I would find it abhorrent"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT SEE THE DISPLAY AS A STATEMENT ABOUT RACE
"I find it a bit odd"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY ONLY SEE IT AS ODD
"I'm still trying to work out whether an inanimate object like cotton boll should be recognized as offensive in and of itself without further context"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT SEE COTTON AS A SYMBOL OF SLAVERY AND BE OFFENDED BY IT
"Is it wrong if others can [compartmentalize images of slaves picking cotton]?"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF COMPARTMENTALIZING THOSE IMAGES OF SLAVES PICKING COTTON.
"I was trying to tell you how I felt on the subject."
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY THINK YOUR FEELINGS ARE OF MORE IMPORTANCE AND AS SUCH, YOU COME ACROSS AS 'GET OVER IT'
"I only stated my take on the subject"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY THINK YOUR FEELINGS ARE OF MORE IMPORTANCE AND AS SUCH, YOU COME ACROSS AS 'GET OVER IT'

Or I may not. I don't think my feelings are more important than anyone else's. They're just my feelings.

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

Now do you see in it's entirety where you failed?  Failed to have empathy.  Failed to be aware of your race privilege?  Failed to have a civil discussion?  Failed at not insulting?  How hard is to simply say:
"Wow, I had never even considered this viewpoint at all. It's hard for me because I don't share those strong feelings on the image of cotton being a symbol of slavery. You're right, if it has such a strong negative symbolism and connotation, we should stop using it in this manner."

Instead you argued that your feelings are equally valid and important on the matter, and you wanted others to validate your feelings. You don't need validation of your feelings in this situation because you hold the race privilege.  So stop.  Stop and empathize.  

Yes, I see. I suck. I failed. I half get it and half don't. I have more empathy than you think though. [/quote]

Now I can't tell for sure, but I think you're trying to be sincere. The problem is that your paragraph of I'm sorry's repeated over and over comes across as phoney. Which in turn makes everything else you've said in that post seem insincere. 

Also, I'm curious as to why you are missing that using the phrase "white people" is not at all comparable with using the term "the blacks". Do you honestly not see the difference? I'm beginning to think you have been exposed to enough racist beliefs that you're simply unaware of them in your own thought patterns. Please note I am not calling you names. I am not calling you a racist, only pointing out that it appears you've been exposed to some racist thought patterns and beliefs for a long enough period of time that they've become entrenched enough that they're impossible for you to see them. Would you feel as comfortable saying "the gays" as you do saying "the blacks"? Would you ever say "the whites"? 

[sandsonik]

I do not use the phrase the blacks. I only used it in this thread when quoting pixy. It's not a phrase I use otherwise, and I would never use black the way you use white over and over: "you're unable to understand this concept because you're black/white" . If you want to use 'The Whites', I don't care. I think you already did, anyway.

The I am sorry was sincere, and repeated to get the point across, because it's wicked hard for people to accept apologies here. It backfired, evidently, so I still don't know how to do it.

[tacosforlife]

Dec 15, 2014 7:57:16 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

I do not use the phrase the blacks. I only used it in this thread when quoting pixy.

What post of pixy's were you quoting? You used "blacks" in one post on page 7 and "the blacks" in another (both near the bottom). You didn't employ the quote feature. And I saw no post from pixy on either page 6 or page 7 that used the term "blacks."

[katfco]

Dec 15, 2014 3:57:42 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 3:44:43 GMT -5 flamingeaux said:

sandsonik,the problem with the author being mistaken for a clerk vs you or I being mistaken for a clerk, is that the color of her skin makes it about 20,000 times more likely to happen to her, than you or me. There is a widespread, long standing, and immediate assumption that if a person black, that person is automatically to be at the bottom of the totem pole, for no reason other than they're black.

To be honest, I really don't believe that.  I'm mistaken for a clerk every other time I go shopping.  The store clerks here - and probably most places in the United States - are much more likely to be white than black.

In any case, I resent the implication that a clerk is the bottom of the barrel, someone you look down at.

I look down at no one based on their job and think our society is really fucked up in that the people who do the most awful jobs generally get paid the least.

But it isn't just about you and how you see it. Yes, I've done service jobs when I was younger, and gotten treated like trash for it. But there's a difference between being treated like an employee and being treated like "the help." And again, it's a whole population (including executives), not just individuals who might get it sometimes. 

[hopecounts]

Dec 15, 2014 3:57:42 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Dec 15, 2014 3:44:43 GMT -5 flamingeaux said:

sandsonik,the problem with the author being mistaken for a clerk vs you or I being mistaken for a clerk, is that the color of her skin makes it about 20,000 times more likely to happen to her, than you or me. There is a widespread, long standing, and immediate assumption that if a person black, that person is automatically to be at the bottom of the totem pole, for no reason other than they're black.

To be honest, I really don't believe that.  I'm mistaken for a clerk every other time I go shopping.  The store clerks here - and probably most places in the United States - are much more likely to be white than black.

In any case, I resent the implication that a clerk is the bottom of the barrel, someone you look down at.

I look down at no one based on their job and think our society is really fucked up in that the people who do the most awful jobs generally get paid the least.

That's part of the point despite it not fitting the reality Black Americans are still disproportionately thought to be staff/'the help'/worker rather then shopper.
Which regardless of what you think of clerks is a significant case of othering Black Americans. 
Many whites don't assume a Black Person is in a store to shop but to work, which means they don't see them as the same on a certain level. 

[ttt]

I haven't read all 11 pages and I am not touching the bomb that just went off in here, but I just want to say this is yet another way this board has made me aware of things that I wouldn't have otherwise thought about. I really wouldn't have thought about decorative cotton being offensive or making people feel uncomfortable (though really, I think it's kind of a weird thing to decorate with in the first place). I'm glad I know now.

[NitaX]

Dec 15, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5 SallyJ said:

Ok sandsonik I'm going explain how you offended and insulted people, displayed your privilege, and lacked empathy. I hope this helps you understand. I'm not doing it to intentionally be mean, but you really don't seem to get it.

You insulted the posters on CEP by starting with:
"CEP has officially jumped the shark and crawled up its own butt, all in one thread."
HOW DOES THIS INVITE CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT?

You continued insulting CEP with:
"Group think on this board"
HOW DOES THIS INVITE CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT?
"Is it now an echo chamber?"
AGAIN, HOW DOES THIS INVITE CONTINUED CIVIL, RESPECTFUL DISCOURSE ON IMPORTANT SUBJECT?

Then you trivialized slavery with ridiculous comparisons and dismissive words, even turning it around that 'white people suffered too!':
"putting an ear of corn next to a popcorn display"
AN EAR OF CORN IS NOT LIKE A BALE OF COTTON IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY
"some century old stigma"
THIS IS SO INCREDIBLY DISMISSIVE AND READS AS 'GET OVER IT'. WOULD YOU EVER SAY, SOME 70 YEAR OLD STIGMA WHEN DISCUSSING THE HOLOCAUST? RACE ISSUES STILL EXIST, THEY AREN'T HUNDREDS OF YEARS OLD.
"like those who can feel morally comfortable eating meat"
SLAVERY ISN'T LIKE VEGETARIANISM
"many of my forefathers perished because of cruel polices that left them but potatoes to eat"
SLAVERY ISN'T LIKE WHITE PEOPLE DYING DURING THE POTATO FAMINE
"I had a crappy summer job once packaging snaps on an assembly line and I never want to see another snap again"
SLAVERY ISN'T LIKE A CRAPPY SUMMER JOB, NOR IS IT ANYTHING LIKE BEING A BLACK PERSON IN AMERICA
"Pussy willow displays or corn stalks in the fall which make no sense whatsoever"
PUSSY WILLOWS AND CORN STALKS AREN'T LIKE COTTON BALES IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY

You trivialized other people's visceral feelings on the image of raw cotton being a symbol for slavery, and showed a complete lack of empathy, even when people told you insulted them:
"I don't understand the point of hating cotton"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT UNDERSTAND HATING COTTON
"I didn't insult anyone"
YOU DID INSULT PEOPLE AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT OR YOU DIDN'T CARE
"There was just cotton"
IT'S NOT JUST COTTON IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY
"There's no 'good' use of a swastika, which is and always has been completely symbolic"
SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND HOW SOMETHING CAN BE A HORRIBLE AWFUL SYMBOL FOR SOMETHING ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC?  UNLESS ITS A SYMBOL FOR SLAVERY?
"But can't it be the case that sometimes cotton is a symbol and sometimes cotton is just cotton?"
COTTON IS NOT JUST COTTON IN THE CONTEXT OF SLAVERY.

You lack even the understanding that being servant is horrible and awful and that the term 'the help' is code for 'servant':
"Not that there is anything wrong with being a servant"
YES THERE ABSOLUTELY IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH BEING A SERVANT.  IT DIDN'T ALWAYS MEAN BEING EMPLOYED.  IT USED TO MEAN SLAVERY OR INDENTURED SERVITUDE.
"It's annoying sometimes, but there are more offensive things than people assuming you have a job."
BEING ASSUMED A SERVANT OR 'THE HELP' IS NOT REMOTELY THE SAME HAS SOMEONE ASSUMING YOU HAVE A JOB.  IT DIDN'T ALWAYS MEAN BEING EMPLOYED. IT USED TO MEAN SLAVERY OR INDENTURED SERVITUDE.

You 'other' black people by calling them blacks or the blacks which blatantly offensive because they are PEOPLE:
"Look at all the times blacks get followed around stores like thieves, or have it implied that they can't afford to purchase the items there"
PEOPLE.  THEY ARE PEOPLE.
"Where the FUCK did I ever say the blacks should forget history?"
PEOPLE. THEY ARE PEOPLE.


You showed a complete lack of empathy when all of your arguments centered around how this situation makes you feel, as a white person:
"I don't find it demoralizing"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT FIND IT DEMORALIZING
"...is splitting hairs to me"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO MAY NOT SEE THE MICROAGGRESSION
"If I felt that the cotton display was a statement about race, I would find it abhorrent"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT SEE THE DISPLAY AS A STATEMENT ABOUT RACE
"I find it a bit odd"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY ONLY SEE IT AS ODD
"I'm still trying to work out whether an inanimate object like cotton boll should be recognized as offensive in and of itself without further context"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY NOT SEE COTTON AS A SYMBOL OF SLAVERY AND BE OFFENDED BY IT
"Is it wrong if others can [compartmentalize images of slaves picking cotton]?"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF COMPARTMENTALIZING THOSE IMAGES OF SLAVES PICKING COTTON.
"I was trying to tell you how I felt on the subject."
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY THINK YOUR FEELINGS ARE OF MORE IMPORTANCE AND AS SUCH, YOU COME ACROSS AS 'GET OVER IT'
"I only stated my take on the subject"
YOU'RE WHITE, SO YOU MAY THINK YOUR FEELINGS ARE OF MORE IMPORTANCE AND AS SUCH, YOU COME ACROSS AS 'GET OVER IT'

Now do you see in it's entirety where you failed?  Failed to have empathy.  Failed to be aware of your race privilege?  Failed to have a civil discussion?  Failed at not insulting?  How hard is to simply say:
"Wow, I had never even considered this viewpoint at all. It's hard for me because I don't share those strong feelings on the image of cotton being a symbol of slavery. You're right, if it has such a strong negative symbolism and connotation, we should stop using it in this manner."

Instead you argued that your feelings are equally valid and important on the matter, and you wanted others to validate your feelings. You don't need validation of your feelings in this situation because you hold the race privilege.  So stop.  Stop and empathize.  

[flgirl]

I have been wanting to respond yo this thread for days but resisted because this is what happens on this board every time a subject like this comes up. There isn't a spirit of dialog or understanding. Instead it is "this is how to felt about it" and anyone who has a different view will be called names, told their ignorant and the pile on begins. Then the post deteriorates into accusations and apologies and absolutely nothing productive. When we lurkers were asked why we don't post, this is why I don't.

[flgirl]

Sorry about any typos. Typing on my phone while pumping and entertaining the baby.

[pixy0stix]

Dec 15, 2014 9:51:49 GMT -5 flgirl said:

I have been wanting to respond yo this thread for days but resisted because this is what happens on this board every time a subject like this comes up. There isn't a spirit of dialog or understanding. Instead it is "this is how to felt about it" and anyone who has a different view will be called names, told their ignorant and the pile on begins. Then the post deteriorates into accusations and apologies and absolutely nothing productive. When we lurkers were asked why we don't post, this is why I don't.

So then why do you lurk? Obviously you don't agree with what we say, and we're heinous she beasts, so why lurk?

[pixy0stix]

Dec 15, 2014 9:55:49 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Dec 15, 2014 9:51:49 GMT -5 flgirl said:

I have been wanting to respond yo this thread for days but resisted because this is what happens on this board every time a subject like this comes up. There isn't a spirit of dialog or understanding. Instead it is "this is how to felt about it" and anyone who has a different view will be called names, told their ignorant and the pile on begins. Then the post deteriorates into accusations and apologies and absolutely nothing productive. When we lurkers were asked why we don't post, this is why I don't.

If that's what you took away from this post then it's probably good you didn't participate in it.

And I have to admit I'm feeling some kinda way about you making this comment in THIS thread and not one about some political issue.

Right? Of all the ones to be accused of group think about, it's a thread about racism.

[pixy0stix]

Dec 15, 2014 10:01:26 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

ok. i think we need to make the limit 6 replies to an lurking OP before allowing them a chance to post before feeling attacked.

one more spot open. lol

LOL! I wish we could do a head count before responding. "Ok, it's your turn!"

[josieposy]

I gotta tell you I'm feeling some sort of way about the quote button right now.

[Deleted]

Dec 15, 2014 9:51:49 GMT -5 flgirl said:

I have been wanting to respond yo this thread for days but resisted because this is what happens on this board every time a subject like this comes up. There isn't a spirit of dialog or understanding. Instead it is "this is how to felt about it" and anyone who has a different view will be called names, told their ignorant and the pile on begins. Then the post deteriorates into accusations and apologies and absolutely nothing productive. When we lurkers were asked why we don't post, this is why I don't.