Fat Tuesday -- Shape up to join the Army

[msmerymac]

Aug 14, 2012 11:03:06 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

Aug 14, 2012 11:00:19 GMT -5 eliseb0323 said:

And what do you do when the country is attacked and we can't defend ourselves because we don't have a strong enough military? Are we just going to muster up enough volunteers after the bombing starts? People who serve in the military are defending your freedom NOT to serve. I'd think you would want to support that.

The volunteer military has NEVER had too few people to defend the country against an invasion (and really, when is the last time we were actually invaded? it's been what, a hundred years? two hundred?), though if we were actually being invaded or in danger of being invaded, that would be a cause a lot of people would volunteer for.

If you don't count Pearl Harbor as an "invasion" then it's been 200 (because it's 2012 right now...). Although the Civil War was completely fought on American soil - I'm not sure you'd consider than an "invasion."

[pixy0stix]

Aug 14, 2012 11:17:35 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

It should be enough, shouldn't it? Let the grassroots start here.

We've had social programs since the 1940s. We've had educational reform in various iterations since the 1980s.

::throws hands out::

But yes, by all means, lets start. Which isn't really starting, but carrying the torch of the predecessors before us.

Do you see why I keep saying that the programs aren't going to be fixed to help the people NOW, and that they should be given any opportunity that is available NOW to use?

[hawkeye]

Aug 14, 2012 11:23:40 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

If they start teaching military history in schools, it damn well better be an elective. lol.

Refresh my memory, was it you over on MM or somewhere who felt that we should do away with Veteran's preference for governemnt jobs?

[pixy0stix]

Aug 14, 2012 11:23:40 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

If they start teaching military history in schools, it damn well better be an elective. lol.

You didn't take any American history or US Government classes in high school? They're part of the core curriculum in most schools, and I swear what elise is talking about was covered in those classes.

[wrathofkuus]

I cannot continue to quote all of this.

Msmerymac, what concerns me are the total casualties, not just death but also the lingering injuries that you were talking about. The death is the most dramatic one for rhetoric, but it's all a huge risk.

Hawkeye, when I say that the military serves the upper classes, I'm not talking about who comprises the military - I'm talking about who is making the decisions at the top on what the military should be doing, who they should be invading and why. Those decisions aren't made, by and large, in order to benefit the people in the military, or the ordinary citizens here. It's not like the military has been protecting us from all the countries who have been here, trying to invade us.

Truthfully, I don't know what I think about whether the differences in reproductive choices should be preserved. Or rather, I know what I think, which is that everyone should conform to my cultural norm, but why do I think that? Is it really because it's the best and only way? Or is it class/culture imperialism? I will admit that I do feel that same disdain for the "trashy" way of living that probably all upper-middle class people feel, but does that mean that I'm right? I don't know.

[chichimi]

Aug 14, 2012 11:00:17 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

It is HORRIFYING to think about putting that much pressure on a twelve-year-old.

Children grow up far too fast as it is. Can we please let them be kids for a little bit longer before you start telling them they should form a plan for their lives? If a kid already has responsibilities like taking care of younger siblings and buying milk and signing report cards, why in the everloving hell do you want to also tell them they need to start planning their career trajectory?

No, they dont. They are sexually maturing at an earlier age but they sure as heck are growing up too fast. They arent keeping up with educational standards around the world, they arent learning basic life skills like dealing with money or how to eat healthy foods, they arent leading active lifestyles. Then we wonder why only 20% of hs grads are even ready for college. We've lowered the standards enough. If by 'letting them be kids' you mean sit around and play violent video games or play on social media networks while losing all in person social skills, then I really dont see the point.
I do understand what you are saying. You dont want children to have to worry. But that is one of the major problems I see with our country, apathy right down to the children. They need to learn about themselves, learn about our country, and take ownership in it so there isnt so much handwringing later on in their lives when they arent taken care of. Its been pointed out now several times in this thread that in middle school, students have to start taking college prep courses. Not worrying about any of that will lead to major problems should they decide to attend down the road. Obesity has much greater implications and its about time we teach them from the start instead of expecting them to fix the problem once they are already obese, which we know is dang near impossible.

[wrathofkuus]

Sexually maturing at a younger age as in, having sex earlier?

[chichimi]

Aug 14, 2012 11:57:53 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

Sexually maturing at a younger age as in, having sex earlier?

Developing breasts, beginning menstruation. Most of which can be tied to foods with hormones that we now consume in mass quantity.

[marie427]

Aug 14, 2012 11:18:56 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Aug 14, 2012 10:59:37 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

Hawkeye, I would say that reproductive choices are a huge cultural difference between the poor and the middle class, and that's a difference that has nothing at all to do with income.

And of course there are benefits to being in the military, if you survive. That's the "if", the danger, that makes the whole idea so ridiculously unethical.

It's not really a big "if." Not to downplay the sacrifice those who have been KIA have made, but of a military of almost 1.5 million, less than 10,000 people have been killed in the last 10+ years of fighting ACTIVE wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan. That's a .00666 chance of being killed if you are a member of the military, period. (Obviously this increases for those who are serving in combat zones, and then again, depending on your position.)

Plenty of people coming back have to deal with traumatic brain injuries and PTSD, as well as other issues adjusting to civilian life, but your big concern seems to be poor American being killed, so that's what we'll talk about, I guess.

I agree with what you've been saying in this whole thread. I guess my own personal experiences color my opinions in that I've seen the military do a lot of good for people, even though I believe we could be better at taking care of our veterans after they've served in war zones.

Having said that, I disagree with these recruiting tactics immensely. I have no problem with kids in high school speaking to recruiters and the recruiters telling them what's needed for them to join the military. I just don't think it's the military's place to try and solve the childhood obesity epidemic throughout the country.

[pixy0stix]

Did/do you ladies have an objection to the Presidential Fitness Challenge?

www.presidentschallenge.org/

Different from the First Lady's project.

[wrathofkuus]

Aug 14, 2012 12:00:41 GMT -5 @chichimi said:

Aug 14, 2012 11:57:53 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

Sexually maturing at a younger age as in, having sex earlier?

Developing breasts, beginning menstruation. Most of which can be tied to foods with hormones that we now consume in mass quantity.

Breasts, yes. But the average age at first period hasn't changed in this country for over a hundred years.

(this used to be my field of study, before I changed careers)

[msmerymac]

Aug 14, 2012 12:01:11 GMT -5 marie427 said:

Aug 14, 2012 11:18:56 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

It's not really a big "if." Not to downplay the sacrifice those who have been KIA have made, but of a military of almost 1.5 million, less than 10,000 people have been killed in the last 10+ years of fighting ACTIVE wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan. That's a .00666 chance of being killed if you are a member of the military, period. (Obviously this increases for those who are serving in combat zones, and then again, depending on your position.)

Plenty of people coming back have to deal with traumatic brain injuries and PTSD, as well as other issues adjusting to civilian life, but your big concern seems to be poor American being killed, so that's what we'll talk about, I guess.

I agree with what you've been saying in this whole thread. I guess my own personal experiences color my opinions in that I've seen the military do a lot of good for people, even though I believe we could be better at taking care of our veterans after they've served in war zones.

Having said that, I disagree with these recruiting tactics immensely. I have no problem with kids in high school speaking to recruiters and the recruiters telling them what's needed for them to join the military. I just don't think it's the military's place to try and solve the childhood obesity epidemic throughout the country.

And I do have concerns about that. But I briefly mentioned earlier that this might be the easiest and cheapest way to institute these kinds of programs. The federal government already has the training systems and infrastructure ready to go. It would be more organized and streamlined than creating a new program from scratch, finding and hiring pediatric nutritionists, retraining physical education teachers, etc.

At least, that's my assumption about this suggestion.

[Daria Morgandorffer]

How about we just make sure there is funding for an adaquate PE program in schools? Not this once a week, let's all jog around the football field and make everyone hate excercise even more, but an every day hour of physical activity. No recruiters required. How much can that really cost? Or is it just a question of taking time away from core subjects? My class seemed to get plenty of actual education while still managing to spend an hour actively doing something and getting outside every day.

I actually don't have anything against the army or recruiters. I do believe we need a highly trained and available army to defend our country. I don't like the defense budget and think we need to get our asses out of a few countries that we are just wasting time and money in, but other than that, I'm pretty pro-military.

What I don't agree with is placing recruiters in buildings that my child is legally required to be in for a certain number of hours per day.

[copzgirl1171]

I think our school hasn't gotten the memo yet because we still do two recesses daily for elementary kids plus PE and PE in junior high and its a requirement to graduate.

[Daria Morgandorffer]

Aug 14, 2012 12:27:04 GMT -5 @copzgirl1171 said:

I think our school hasn't gotten the memo yet because we still do two recesses daily for elementary kids plus PE and PE in junior high and its a requirement to graduate.

Yea, I don't think that's the norm these days. In my old high school, PE is now an elective that must be taken for at least ONE year during high school to graduate. They've also cut recess down to once per day for elementary students.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 14, 2012 12:31:36 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

"Easiest and cheapest" isn't how I think the massive problem of childhood obesity should be handled. If the government wants to address the problem, they need to address the problem head-on; not peripherally by cutting a deal with the military to the tune of "You cut obesity, we'll let you have some kids."

Again, LHC, its very easy to say these things, but how are you going to implement them in an expedient manner?

[ttt]

I just want to point out that the unemployment rate for veterans who have served since 9/11 is 12.1 percent, which is much higher than the overall unemployment rate. And it is 29.1% for young male post 9/11 veterans:

articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/26/nation/la-na-nn-afghanistan-iraq-veterans-unemployment-20120326

So let's not pretend that the military is a great way to get a terrific career after you've served.

ETA: the unemployment rate for young black male veterans is 48%.

www.businessweek.com/finance/occupy-wall-street/archives/2011/11/the_vets_job_crisis_is_worse_than_you_think.html

[downtoearth]

Aug 14, 2012 10:13:29 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

If we want to touch upon the threads of yesterday, the military is a good option for kids who have no other options, and may drop out before they finish high school.

I was just catching up a little and while I agree that there aren't wide-spread programs, in my little neck-of-the-woods the Job Corps and Conservation Corps were our go-to sources when trying to get a high school drop-out from the youth shelter to figure out the next step. We rarely steered them toward the military mostly b/c the staff/directors were mostly non-military and often the kids weren't eligible based on mental health issues or fitness. I wish more programs like the Job Corps would be expanded - those are really great programs when the kids complete; however, when they drop out a couple times, there isn't really another option and they often don't take you back.

[aliciar6]

wow glad to know my family, friends, and I are cannon fodder.....

Do I think the Army needs to come into middle schools and elementary schools, no. Recruiters especially...if you want to enlist, then you can visit them. Now I did see a few in my HS, but they just stood behind a desk and if you wanted to come over and talk to them, then they'd explain what your options were. No badgering, no harassment and this was in the mid to late 90's.

Does the Army know how to get people in shape? Yes, but I'm not sure those methods are right for kids. Nor do I think they could come up with a good program aimed for kids, when they deal primarily with adults. I actually think the program would turn people/kids off from the military if they had to go through it.

But when I hear people complain about this, are you going to let you kids play call of duty on their PS3 and XBox 360 which glamorizes the military, killing, and war??? (and when they play on line are exposed to some of the most offensive horrible comments from other kids?)

Schools should revamp Physical Education and Health classes and start them earlier than middle school or HS...also maybe provide some of the Health info the parents as well.

But coming from an Army family, I do hope one of my future kids decides to carry on the tradition. And I don't look at it like I'm sending them off to die....but if they don't want to or have no interest, I'd never pressure them.

[bigmamma]

Aug 14, 2012 9:48:50 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

I'm so against this. I know people who were lied to, stalked and intimidated by recruiters; and I don't relish the military coming into an elementary school and trying to plant seeds in the minds of children.

I highly doubt most of the kids they brainwash have the academic potential to qualify for the Armed Forces. I mean fat people can't be smart or they wouldn't be fat right?

besides they hate fat people in the military, I mean look at what they did to that kid in full metal jacket and he killed that guy.

How can we trust the military to positively influence kids? I mean they only volunteered to give their lives for our freedoms... what the fuck kind of example of the American way is that? Seriously like only 0.45% of the US population qualifies and serves in the military. Fuckin Freaks.

[bigmamma]

Aug 15, 2012 11:55:26 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

I don't understand how getting the Army in to badger kids to be more fit is going to help adults actually stay fit once they are no longer forced to attend these classes. It probably will result in more recruits for the Army, though.

Which is the issue for me. This isn't about obesity. It's about growing our military. Let's not pretend they care about helping the kids.

Who the fuck is THEY? Soldiers? Really? Your right we don't give a fuck about kids. That's why we write home asking you to send us shoes for little Iraqi kids who don't have shoes to wear. That's why we ask for school supplies to pass out to communities in need. That's why we are the first to show up and the last to leave when there is a call for help.

You need to go take a long look in the mirror and think about your OPINION of people like me. I am PROUD to be a Soldier. I work hard to support my local community. I DO CARE about this country and our youth.... and YES... as a Soldier I have more knowledge about nutrition and fitness than the average American. We make fitness fun and we know how to stay fit WITH NO EQUIPMENT and NO COST! We go through more background checks than most of the people who come into contact with your kids....

I WOULD DIE FOR YOU ---> but I don't CARE about kids. WOW. I bet you have a "support the troops" tshirt somewhere you break out on patriotic holidays.

As a service member this thread is disturbing. It is great to see the REAL opinion the rest of the country has about Soldiers. I swore an oath to protect you, your right to free speech - I am honorable and dedicated to service and it is moments like this that I wonder if Americans GET IT.

Thanks for the eye opener.

[ttt]

Aug 15, 2012 22:06:15 GMT -5 bigmamma said:

Aug 14, 2012 9:48:50 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

I'm so against this. I know people who were lied to, stalked and intimidated by recruiters; and I don't relish the military coming into an elementary school and trying to plant seeds in the minds of children.

I highly doubt most of the kids they brainwash have the academic potential to qualify for the Armed Forces. I mean fat people can't be smart or they wouldn't be fat right?

besides they hate fat people in the military, I mean look at what they did to that kid in full metal jacket and he killed that guy.

How can we trust the military to positively influence kids? I mean they only volunteered to give their lives for our freedoms... what the fuck kind of example of the American way is that? Seriously like only 0.45% of the US population qualifies and serves in the military. Fuckin Freaks.

What the what??

[bigmamma]

Aug 15, 2012 22:14:27 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

I really can't roll my eyes any harder at this.

The feeling is mutual.

Then again I am a soulless baby killing bitch who shouldn't be allowed to talk to kids for fear I'll tie them into an IBA/ACH and send them off to be shrapnel magnets for the Mujahedin.

[bigmamma]

Aug 15, 2012 22:26:27 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

I think you need to calm down. Nobody called you a bitch or suggested you kill babies.

No, but you've done a great job of implying your opinion of my moral/ethical character. Maybe you need to realize that your LIMITED experience with a FEW recruiters when you were in high school isn't reflective of the entire service OR every recruiter.

The Marines will take anybody. Problem solved.

I happened to read this thread right after reading the one about Chinese Olympic athletes, and the juxtaposition frightens me a little.

Yes, lose the weight and be healthy so we can send you off to die!

I'm not saying all recruiters are this way; but I've seen and heard enough in my own life that it makes me instantly suspicious of them on the whole.

They certainly arent the ideal people

I am severely squicked out at the idea of brainwashing the uber-low classes into working hard to be cannon fodder. That is some China style bullshit

brainwash them into giving up even the simple right to decide what causes they're willing to die for? That's appalling.


I don't want people in the military simply because it was the best of a series of bad choices in front of them.

The military isn't a great option, but it's an option

Let's funnel them into an eduction, marketable skills, clean housing and affordable healthcare WITHOUT teaching them how to shoot someone at a hundred yards

And of course there are benefits to being in the military, if you survive. That's the "if", the danger, that makes the whole idea so ridiculously unethical

If they start teaching military history in schools, it damn well better be an elective. lol

the Army, whose agenda is clearly a bit suspect in this regard

No. Because it's not run by someone coming to the school to whisper in my kid's ear about how awesome the Army is

[bigmamma]

ps... we teach them to shoot someone at 300 Meters. If you are going to talk crap get your facts straight, and the USMC takes it out 500M - 800M on a point target.

We also inculcate them with the Army Values of
Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal Courage


Did your PE teacher throw those in for balance and moral fortitude? Maybe military personnel in schools would offer a ROLE MODEL for kids in addition to their parents/teachers. Someone who earns their pay, stays off drugs SERVES THEIR COMMUNITY.

My PE teacher was a retired Marine. He instilled good order and discipline taught us that PAIN was a sign of progress and encouraged us to takes RISKS to reward OTHERS.

What a HORRIBLE INFLUENCE for kids! Thank GOD for Bud Doba. He never told me to join anything. Never encouraged us to enlist. NEVER said he was a Marine, but you're damn right the Globe and Eagle on his arm spoke volumes about the man he was.

[pixy0stix]

How is she coming across badly? By copying what you said, in context?

I'm still laughing at the military history thing.

Also, I'm glad the real statistics were brought up in the thread. I thought they were interesting.

[youneek]

I guess I don't understand all the hate regarding the military being a viable option. Can it be riskier? Of course it can, but guess what, you can also get shot watching a movie in a theater, going to class on a college campus, or die getting hit by a drunk driver. No one is being forced to join the military.

While I realize that not everyone feels this way, I wouldn't change the experience that I've had with a husband in the military. Do I agree with everything they do? No. Do I want my husband going to the sandbox? No. Does it get irritating that things are always changing and I am left to adapt to those changes? Yes. But we signed up for this, and we knew/know what the possibilities are.

As far as what benefits the military has for our family?

ROTC paid for my husbands degree, (no student loans) and a monthly stipend.

There's always a possibility that they will send him to graduate school for free on orders

Our children will be able to go to college with the post 911 GI Bill

We have insurance that pays an additional $36,000 per year of ABA for my son who has autism.

We have dental, vision, and health care coverage, my son qualifies for a program that keeps us in one of five major metro areas so that we can be sure that his services will be available.

The military created a position for my husband so that this could happen and allow him to keep his retention bonus. My husband will have a pension and insurance upon retirement.

There are also programs for enlisted and O-1/O-2 wives that provide a 4k payment to obtain certifications and/or education.

There are so many additional programs and benefits available to military families...they aren't always highly advertised, but they are there.

Travel to places we otherwise would have never been (he goes, I meet him if I can).

We've made friends who will be friends for life.

My husband, for the most part, loves his job and doesn't WANT to do anything else.

With all of that being said, the military ends up just being a larger reflection of society. Those that can't stay out of trouble outside of the military, aren't going to be able to stay out of trouble in the military. So, what does this lead to? It leads to someone that now is uneducated, broke, and looking for a job with a dishonorable discharge on their record. They never should have joined in the first place. I don't know what the answer is, but for those that want a better life and are willing to do what needs to be done and stick it out, the military can provide a lot of experience, options, and a path to a better life.

[pedanticwench]

Completely agree with LHC.

I cannot believe you're giving bigmamma any traction here, Pixy. She's almost coming off like the ****************RANCH DRESSING****************** troll.

[bigmamma]

I'm not a troll. Read the C&P of the things said about military personnel.

Loyalty:
Bear true faith and allegiance to the US Constitution, The Army, Your Unit and Fellow Soldiers.

Yes, there are douche bags within our ranks. Usually we find them, Usually we kick them out, and USUALLY we are upstanding citizens of this Nation who put our lives on the line to defend our Country and its people.

Are some recruiters outside the lines of normal practice? Yes, however the comments about "cannon fodder" and "sending them off to die" - are out of line.

Also, the average Soldier has more education than most of their civilian counter-parts. We graduated HS and further out education while serving our country. We get out of the military and use the GIBill to complete our academic goals.

We are bound by moral and ethical standards (UCMJ) which cannot be equaled in your public school systems.

We are held to a higher physical fitness standard than any other professional field (excluding pro sports) and we are required to maintain that standard for 20 years if we serve til retirement. We must meet these standards to be promoted, earn awards, attend military schools.

To judge so harshly those that serve based on a tunnel vision attitude and to perpetuate such a harsh and limited view point of the military with NO PERSONAL TIME IN SERVICE is irresponsible.

I am personally and professional insulted by many of the statements made here. They did not name specific personnel who were responsible for the negative opinions. These statements were generalized against those in uniform. I am one of those. I work with students. I work in schools. I am proud of my service and respect the choice MOST make to stay away from the ranks.

So, no I am not a troll. I am an American Military Member and some of the people who posted here disrespected my service and that of my comrades. I would like to thank those who defended the military, opposed the gross generalizations and saw the value in Soldiers.

[ttt]

Aug 16, 2012 8:29:53 GMT -5 youneek said:

I guess I don't understand all the hate regarding the military being a viable option. Can it be riskier? Of course it can, but guess what, you can also get shot watching a movie in a theater, going to class on a college campus, or die getting hit by a drunk driver. No one is being forced to join the military.

No one is literally forced to join, but if you're from an area where your options are sitting around being unemployed for years or joining the military, it's not exactly a fully free choice. Not to mention the shady recruiting practices that *do* occur (I'm not saying anything about the frequency of their occurrence because I have no numbers on that).

It's not just the risk of death - it's also the risk of coming back permanently injured physically or mentally. How many thousands of servicemen and women have come back from Iraq and Afghanistan with injuries that will affect them for the rest of their lives?

The military can be great for some people, especially those who make a career out of it. But it can also be horrible for some people, for those who end up with permanent injuries, those who end up leaving the military with no employable skills (as you see, the unemployment rate among vets is a lot higher than the general population), those who end up leaving with mental conditions that cause them to be homeless (why is the rate of homelessness among vets so much higher than the general population?). So I would certainly be wary about recommending it as a terrific career choice for any young person.

FWIW, I have numerous immediate and extended family members who are currently serving or who are veterans so I'm not completely uneducated on this topic.