Fat Tuesday -- Shape up to join the Army

[bigmamma]

Aug 16, 2012 11:08:02 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Aug 15, 2012 23:20:02 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

How is she coming across badly? By copying what you said, in context?

I'm still laughing at the military history thing.

Also, I'm glad the real statistics were brought up in the thread. I thought they were interesting.

I think her response to my post was a bit cray cray. And makes her seem slightly too reactionary.

Wouldn't have lost my shitakes on you if you hadn't said we "pretent" to care about kids. We do care. We care about kids being healthy, free and able to enjoy their life/education in peace.

It pissed me off when you made that statement - and I read that one long after the other statements about the military brainwashing kids to send them off to die (which NO, you did not personally say).

So yes, I flew off the handle and you were the one that was quoted. However that was after reading multiple statements about how disturbed military people are and how we just want to get into little kids heads so we can get them killed.

I'll apologize for quoting you and addressing the entire thread.

[wrathofkuus]

I'm anti-military. Why not engage me instead of Lucy?

[pedanticwench]

Yes, please engage Kuus.

[bigmamma]

While I understand that you are referencing Vets as a whole (homelessness/jobs) you have to break it down by conflict. You also have to remember that while the statistics are concerning, they can be misleading. Many vets return from war, leave the military and file for unemployment until they return to school full time. Many return back to their hometown for a couple months of down time while they figure out "what's next".

Those with permanent injuries? Knew the risk. We do not go into war blindly, nor do we do so lightly. Take into consideration Taylor Morris. Read his story and ask yourself again if he is as bad off as your mindset makes him out to be. It is all about perspective. So many of our ill/injured vets are seeking care and HAPPY to have survived.

Unfortunately the generation of veterans before us are still living with a negative stigma. Our WWII - Vietnam Vets still have the "suffer in silence" approach which we, the military, have spent over a decade combating for this generation of veterans.

The MAJORITY of service members come back home, find work, go to school and build a life. Why do you not hear about this? Because we don't think its worth celebrating. It like when a civilian comes up to say "Thank You" for serving... it is uncomfortable for most service members. We are happy to serve, who CHOSE to serve... we consider it an Honor. It is hard to accept thanks for doing a job you feel you were intended to do. Like thanking the EMT who saves a life... they say "just doing my job" they are thinking "thank you? no way I would let you die"...


If these people are so disturbed by uniform personnel teaching fitness and nutrition I bet Troops to Teachers would have them flipping the hell out. I guess that is the military covert brainwashing program for school aged kids.

[wrathofkuus]

I can see why - she's angry with you and TRAINED TO KILL!

It's for your freedom, though.

[krista]

Aug 16, 2012 11:14:54 GMT -5 ttt said:

Aug 16, 2012 8:29:53 GMT -5 youneek said:

I guess I don't understand all the hate regarding the military being a viable option. Can it be riskier? Of course it can, but guess what, you can also get shot watching a movie in a theater, going to class on a college campus, or die getting hit by a drunk driver. No one is being forced to join the military.

The military can be great for some people, especially those who make a career out of it. But it can also be horrible for some people, for those who end up with permanent injuries, those who end up leaving the military with no employable skills (as you see, the unemployment rate among vets is a lot higher than the general population)

I think part of the answer to this has already been touched on. Those of us in the military have seen first hand, Soldiers who can't make it in the military most likely can't make it outside the military. The Army can be a challenge, but if you want to be in it, you will succeed. People leave after their initial commitment for a few reasons -- to go to school full time, because their military occupation does translate to the civilian world, or because they couldn't handle it or screwed up. I suspect the latter type of servicemember is what increases the unemployment rate among vets. fwiw, one of my positions was to process Soldiers out of the Army and it was pretty easy to figure out who was going to be successful in the civilian world and who was not.

[bigmamma]

Aug 16, 2012 11:16:48 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

I'm anti-military. Why not engage me instead of Lucy?

I did engage you... I didn't just C&P her comments wouldn't want to make you feel left out.

You have always been anti-military and always will be. You probably do consider me a baby killing heartless bitch.

No worries. I know exactly how you feel. Everyone does. However your disrespect and blanket statements aren't always going to go unanswered or unchallenged. You make inflammatory statements to get attention - congrats you've got mine.

[bigmamma]

Aug 16, 2012 11:24:21 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

I can see why - she's angry with you and TRAINED TO KILL!

It's for your freedom, though.

Yep, I'm trained to kill - all enemies foreign and domestic which means unless you plan on committing an act of treason against this great nation you have nothing to fear from me.

Having a shit-tastic opinion of the military isn't treason.

[wrathofkuus]

For the record, I'm okay with the baby killing. I don't like kids much. The adults are another story.

Let's talk about the specifics, if you want to discuss this.

[bigmamma]

Aug 16, 2012 11:32:31 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

For the record, I'm okay with the baby killing. I don't like kids much. The adults are another story.

Let's talk about the specifics, if you want to discuss this.

Why did you have to go and say something funny?

Which specifics would YOU like to discuss? I'd love to hear what your perception is and hopefully give you some sort of actual insight into our life.

I am one part of a dual military family. I'm Army (reserve at this point) he is Navy (active duty). I will NOT defend individual acts of dishonor, however I find it annoying when the actions of ONE (who acts in disregard of our value set) are then applied to ALL.

Simple example. abu ghraib - disgusting and dishonorable. I served for 18 months at a detention facility. Never would I allow or participate in treatment of prisoners in such a way. I can say that my fellow Soldiers felt the same way I did. We were embarrassed by the actions of those involved AND by those who did NOTHING to stop it.

Let me ask you do you believe that man is inherently good or evil?

[eliseb0323]

Bigmamma -- Thank you for your service!

[wrathofkuus]

I think that it's a little bit of both, but mostly good. We all have a little bit of the self-centered ass in us, but by and large, IMO we're built for empathy and compassion.

One of the biggest problems I have with the military is a kind of unavoidable one, and I'd like to hear your take on it: in order to be okay with casualties, be they the civilians on the other side that accidentally come into harm's way or the soldiers on the other side of the conflict, some part of that natural empathy has to be turned off, even if it's only temporarily. How does that affect you, individually? How do you separate who you are, and the inherent empathy in you, from the people with their own feelings and perspectives on the other side?

[Ruby Gloom]

Aug 14, 2012 10:27:52 GMT -5 eliseb0323 said:

Aug 14, 2012 10:23:34 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

There are literally thousands of stories of recruitment where the recruiter has either bent the truth or blatantly lied, pandering to kids' emotions. Seriously, just Google it. You'll find a massive amount of them.

Recruiters have quotas. And some of them do unscrupulous things to achieve those quotas, to make their mission. One of my friends from high school ended up in the Army, and is now a recruiter, and has some horrifying stories to tell. Kids from my school were approached repeatedly, despite indicating they had no interest, to the extent that it was nearly harassment. One guy who initially expressed interest and then changed his mind was contacted constantly, weekly, for TWO YEARS before they finally gave up.

I'm not saying all recruiters are this way; but I've seen and heard enough in my own life that it makes me instantly suspicious of them on the whole.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, Lucy. I am asking what the time frame was of your experience. I work for the guy who used to be in charge of Army recruiting and cracking down on unethical behavior by recruiters was one of his big priorities.

I would just like to say that my 18 year old son has been harassed repeatedly by a Navy recruiter for the past two years. Last week, when my son again told him that he had no intent on ever joining the Navy, and was tired of this harassment, the recruiter told him, "Fine, I will make it so that you will NEVER be FUCKING eligible for the armed services EVER." I was there; I heard it.

[bigmamma]

Aug 16, 2012 11:54:41 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

I think that it's a little bit of both, but mostly good. We all have a little bit of the self-centered ass in us, but by and large, IMO we're built for empathy and compassion.

One of the biggest problems I have with the military is a kind of unavoidable one, and I'd like to hear your take on it: in order to be okay with casualties, be they the civilians on the other side that accidentally come into harm's way or the soldiers on the other side of the conflict, some part of that natural empathy has to be turned off, even if it's only temporarily. How does that affect you, individually? How do you separate who you are, and the inherent empathy in you, from the people with their own feelings and perspectives on the other side?

We aren't okay with casualties. Especially civilian or friendly forces. We do NOT want our Soldiers to turn off their empathy, but we do train them to manage it for "Mission First".

The majority of military personal will NOT actually see combat. They will not be in a firefight - they will NOT take a life. We spend a great deal of time and money training our soldiers on cultural differences, needs and medical care. We have entire units devoted to improving the quality of life within the countries we conduct combat missions (civil affairs). We also have comprehensive programs to strengthen a Soldier's mind (and their family) to be able to LEAVE war in the combat zone. To tap back IN when they are OUT of the firefight. (check out csf.army.mil ) It will highlight the program for resilience, but many of the modules/lessons teach Soldiers and their families how to cope with the "stress" of being a military family which also involves dealing with the emotional turmoil of taking a life.

Empathy - a time and a place: Our Soldiers constantly request support items for the communities around them. Soccer balls, books, shoes, first aid items, water --> all to be given away as they drive through their patrols. This empathy is a double edged sword. Our Soldiers (for the most part) want to IMPROVE the quality of life for others. They WANT TO HELP - we are not war mongers set on death and mayhem. We cannot however set a Soldier up for failure by pretending they may never be faced with a life and death decision. They might not even be at war (Fort Hood - 2009/ Aurora, CO 2012) when they have to make a life and death decision. In the listed examples service members knowingly gave their life to save someone else. In CO it was someone close to them in TX it was for a room full of strangers).

Would I willingly kill the enemy to preserve liberty/freedom or to protect another life? Yes. Would I feel bad about taking another human life? Yes.
Would I get over it? I can't say for sure. I haven't had to do that yet.

The Army pushes 7 values on Soldiers, one of which is Selfless Service: "Put the welfare of the Nation, The Army and your Subordinates before your own".

Another of the 7 is Integrity:
Do what's right legally and morally.

We understand that not everyone has the same value set. We spend weeks during BCT training Soldiers on the Army's definition of "right" and it is less about KILL KILL KILL and more about THINK THINK THINK. We train Soldiers to be decision makers. To calculate the risks and unintended consequences of their actions.

One of the reasons we use laser guided weapons and drones is to AVOID collateral damage. We, the American military, do NOT want to kill innocent civilians. Does it happen? Yes. Are we USUALLY the direct culprit? No Do we find and prosecute those who are? yes. (SSG Bales MAR 2012).

I am NOT saying we, with rifles, are the same as surgeons. The inherent differences in our professions are obvious ----> BUT <---- our medical professionals must also manage their empathetic urges. They must swallow emotion and restrict their attachment to patients. While we the military restrict our empathy for the enemy we do NOT restrict our compassion for his countrymen.

You brought into conversation the differences between perspectives and feelings. We also teach the value of Respect (treat people as they should be treated). As I stated before, I spent over a year working in a detention camp. RESPECT and INTEGRITY came into pay often. When I detainee through his feces in my face my natural reaction wasn't exactly KIND - but my EMPATHY for his situation allowed me to react with respect and integrity. We were also FORBIDDEN to discuss religion/policy with the detainees - even if they were of like faith. We were to treat them as enemy combatants, respect their religious beliefs and treat them with dignity. ((and no, they were not innocent goat herders with a mistaken identity sob story they would kill you with malice and were happy to tell you how'd they do it --> then again they also made up imaginary dowries for me and tried to marry me off to my fellow soldiers on a weekly basis. I am worth ALOT of toothbrushes and toilet paper).

[wrathofkuus]

Oh, I'm not suggesting that those of you who see active combat have turned into T1000 heartless killing machines. I can't imagine that this could be true. What I mean is the idea of "mission first". How do you manage to believe that your mission is the right one, to the point of potentially having to actually kill someone who is in a lot of ways just like you, also thinking "mission first" and that his mission is the right one? Or have I just watched that Outer Limits episode "Quality of Mercy" too many times?

[bigmamma]

Let me put it this way. I am a Drill Sergeant - and if a recruit walks up and says "I don't want to do this. I can't kill someone. I don't think this is for me"...

We begin the process to have them administratively separated from the Army. We do NOT force anyone to do anything they do not volunteer to do. Are they faced with difficult sometimes life threatening circumstances? Yes. Do they accept the challenge? yes.

It is the same "pause" button that a cop has when he walks into a domestic battery and can see a 100 woman crumpled on the floor and a 200+ pound man with bloody fists. Does that officer want to beat the living shit out of the prick? Probably. Does he/she want to render aid to the victim? Of Course. But they take care of business first (evidence, rights, arrests etc). They cannot act strictly on their gut - what if its wrong. What if the guy walked in and beat the shit out of the x-husband who ran out the back door, and it isn't HER blood on his hands?

My point? It is a specific person who is willing to service in the military. It is specialized training for those in the military who will see combat... It is our enemy who kills for magnitude not specific impact. It is OUR enemy who would kill you where you stand simply because you are an American/Infidel. WE do not blanket kill every human who is islamic. We are not living in biblical times where the policy of Kill Them All was the Standard Operating Procedure.

For most Soldiers the Rules of Engagement now read that we must first be fired upon before we can engage. Our enemy does not wear a uniform, they do not identify who they are or for whom they stand. They hide among the innocent and are FINE with killing them just to make a point or provide a distraction.

My husband had the distinct privilege of doing forensic post blast work on a school bus filled with kids after the mujahedin blew it up because the area wasn't "devout" enough. His empathy was tested. His ability to see the enemy as human was tested. His faith in humanity was tested. We have three small kids - he was at war with himself trying to understand why ANYONE would willingly take the lives of the innocent.

When the US takes a life of a non-combatant we are remorseful. We change tactics. We hold our own accountable --> the same cannot be said for our enemy, and that is a great part of our motivation to eliminate them. To find those who would murder the innocent just because they are different and end their tyranny.

[wrathofkuus]

I can see why it would be easier to think of them as something other than people with a perspective. Just reading that makes them seem like something subhuman to me, too, and I didn't witness a thing.

I don't know, though. The fact that you keep referring to them as "our enemy" is extremely disturbing to me. It sounds... I'm looking for the right way to say this... programmy?

[bigmamma]

They - terrorists - are "our" enemy... Our being the Military/Americans.

It is not something scary from a movie or a pretend boogy man. I've spoken eye to eye with these men. They would happily eliminate any American (regardless of faith) they could gain access to.

It is not programmy, unfortunately it is reality. We, as Americans, have a legitimate threat, at this time however they are otherwise occupied blowing themselves up in Middle Eastern Countries.

I am not saying that they are not human, but their willingness to eliminate human life is disturbing. They train to use kids as shields because they know it will cause an American Soldier to hesitate/withdraw from taking a shot. Their rhetoric it disturbing for exactly the reasons you project on the US Military.

We train our Soldiers to respect humanity and defend it. Their dogma is the antithesis of that policy.

Now, I cannot speak to what I would have done in WWII or Vietnam. I do not know that I would be comfortable defending political wars i.e. Communism vs Democracy - however I have no problem defending my country and innocent people from those who kill them without a second thought.

I am proud that we do not show beheadings on TV or Saddam swinging from the gallows. It would be disturbing to celebrate death over and over. While we recognize the COST of freedom we do not rejoice the death tolls for the enemy. We don't dance in the streets every time we kill a head leader. We acknowledge it and move on.

We got Saddam - his people tried and executed him. We got Bin Laden... at least Obama said we did... Should we get out? I'm thinking yes. I don't think we should be used as cannon fodder. I don't think we should use weapons of mass destruction.

I think what is hard for you is the idea that someone would willingly take a life. It isn't willingly. Do you feel the same way about police officers taking a shot when needed?

I hope that you'll treat this as a discussion and not resort to tv commentary or witty comebacks. I am asking you these questions not to convince you I am right - but to see if I can understand why you feel so strongly about the military.

[wrathofkuus]

I'm honestly not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just trying to understand your perspective, because it's clearly so different from my own.

That area of the world is a bit of a weird spot for me personally. I mean, I know that they're people who are for the most part acting in keeping with the cultural ideas they've known all their lives, just like we are. I know it, but I don't FEEL it, not when I hear about some of the things that go on there, particularly the violence toward women. Sometimes I feel like we should raze that motherfucker to the ground and then salt the earth, because there is so much that is clearly so very wrong, that I don't even know how anyone could ever solve it. Truthfully, I totally get why it might feel okay to potentially kill someone with that kind of cultural perspective, someone who genuinely believes that this is what's right and just. I'd probably be somewhat okay with killing them, too.

I'm just trying to get around my own preconceptions about this particular part of the world, and this particular conflict we as a country are involved in, and take the idea of wars and enemies outside of that to make sure that my feelings on the matter still stand, that my opinion on the topic is sound. And for me, it isn't. It changes totally if we make the enemy, for example, China. And I kind of hate China. So if I feel differently about it if it's China rather than Iraq, then that means I don't really agree with the overall concept of being given a mission and an enemy from someone else, right?

None of this probably made any sense. I'm constipated, and it's making me kind of crazy.

[wawa]

Aug 16, 2012 16:23:08 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

None of this probably made any sense. I'm constipated, and it's making me kind of crazy.

So you're giving us a disclaimer that you are, in fact, full of shit?

HA! thanks folks, I'll be here all week. tip your waitress.

(sorry. couldn't resist the lame joke. this has actually been very interesting to read.)

[wrathofkuus]

Funny, and almost always true.

[krista]

Aug 16, 2012 16:29:59 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

at least Obama said we did...

WHAT?

aw, shit. come on bigmamma, you were doing so well!

[bigmamma]

Aug 16, 2012 16:29:59 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

at least Obama said we did...

WHAT?

I didn't see his body? (((joking about conspiracy theorists almost constant claim that he is alive and well in a cave somewhere)))

now back to our real convo :-)

[bigmamma]

Aug 16, 2012 16:23:08 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

I don't really agree with the overall concept of being given a mission and an enemy from someone else, right?

None of this probably made any sense. I'm constipated, and it's making me kind of crazy.

It did make sense - and it confirmed what I'd assumed about your dislike of the military as more of a mistrust in its leadership.

I can say that the average Soldier I have the honor of training - is a genuinely good person. They ask THE SAME QUESTIONS you do - their conclusion is different. They would prefer to trust that their leadership has the best interest of the US at heart. We, the military members, are will to SACRIFICE our life so you can go on pondering the what ifs - and I do not mean that in a snide way.

We have CHOSEN to serve - many of us feel a "calling" or "drive" to be in the military. It is PART of who we are. Does that mean we are blood lusting war fiends? No (well not most of us). We do tap into the warrior ethos:
I will never quit
I will never leave a fallen comrade
I will always place the mission first
I will never accept defeat

part of "mission first" is eliminating the enemy in pursuit of peace and liberty. It is naive to think there is no evil in this world that needs elimination, and if I am willing to die so someone else can live free - that is my choice.

I was willing to do that LONG BEFORE I enlisted and went to basic. Since I was a kid I wanted to serve - I wanted to help - I wanted to make a difference. I've accomplished my goals. I am proud of my service.

I get angry when I see posts like those you made earlier - accusing some of us of manipulating America's youth to be death fodder on the battlefield. We no long fight in that way. We don't line up and take musket fire from the enemy. Many Soldiers do receive skilled training. The military has multiple accreditation and licensing programs to turn military experience into civilian credentials.

I am a member of a time-honored profession. Your comments cut deep. I take pride in my service and those who serve honorably with me. Food For Thought:

The Code of Conduct (US Armed Forces)
I

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

II

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

III

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

IV

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

V

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

VI

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.