Post by WanderingWinoZ on Oct 15, 2015 10:36:22 GMT -5
Yes, I do consider myself a feminist.
Very interesting thread- thanks to all those contributing.
There's obviously a ton of ways the word is being used & what it means to different people. I would guess that most people on this board are feminists & feel that women should be treated equally & fairly, even if that's not a label that'd give themselves or something they would claim as part of their identity.
The crickets when issues of race came up got too loud to ignore. There was also a dust up about Stellas that was the final straw.
The MLers went to her ass about that though. It was hilarious.
I followed that thread, you are right it was hilarious. She started posting on April 2012 around when that went down. A few us let her know that she wasn't welcome, and we were accused of piling on her. I believe we were also told to block her.
The MLers went to her ass about that though. It was hilarious.
I followed that thread, you are right it was hilarious. She started posting on April 2012 around when that went down. A few us let her know that she wasn't welcome, and we were accused of piling on her. I believe we were also told to block her.
I will add that the desire to be considered equal to men is also not something that I instinctively relate to. Because when white feminists talk about that, they are really talking about "equal to white men", since that's their opposite. And considering black men are apparently too scary to hold the door for folks at an ATM or shop in a Georgetown store, and keep getting shot by cops, I don't really want to be "equal" to black men. I want black men AND women to be equal to white men AND women.
The perils of being a double minority.
Also, I feel like a lot of the white feminists who are all "HRC FOR PRESIDENT, IT'S ABOUT TIME WE HAD A WOMAN!" would side eye the ever-loving shit out of a black person who voted for Obama because he was black.
Truth.
I thought so much about the last paragraph during the debate when Hillary was talking about being a woman and people were cheering. If Obama had said those things...McCain would be happy as hell right now.
I can't speak for all white women, but I voted for Obama well aware of his blackness. It's not all of who is, or all of what I admire in him by a long shot, but I was aware of it and very proud to help elect a black president. I would hope that black people would get that same joy. I kind of hate that anyone would side-eye it.
On an interpersonal level, I sometimes find it a stumbling block. I don't want to be all "can I help celebrate your blackness?" or some other cringe-inducing whitest of the white girls approach. But it frustrates me to leave it hanging in the wind, unacknowledged. That's not being a good friend.
I followed that thread, you are right it was hilarious. She started posting on April 2012 around when that went down. A few us let her know that she wasn't welcome, and we were accused of piling on her. I believe we were also told to block her.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
I wish I were. It's cool because CEP is feeling more comfy by the day.
Post by downtoearth on Oct 15, 2015 10:46:22 GMT -5
I'm late to the game and can't read every response until tonight, but I am a feminist and I want to raise my kids as feminists and I embrace the idea that feminism is also a fight for human rights, not just for women, but for anyone disadvantaged. It's okay if others don't see it as such or jump in, as long as we keep working toward equal human rights, we can all work on different aspects from our own realities.
That being said, Gloria Steinem, who is often a feminist spokesperson said last year, "I realize that things being what they are, probably the white middle-class part of the movement got reported more," Steinem continued. "But if you look at the numbers and the very first poll of women thinking about responding on women's issues, African-American women were twice as likely to support feminism and feminist issues as White women."
Likely our mothers and grandmothers learned how to be feminists from Black women, thus the reason that I've heard the "Work twice as hard for half as much" as a feminist saying my whole life. As I said, until college, I identifying that as a feminist saying and stopped using/thinking it when I realized it will always be a reality for Black people. It's the same with the environmental movement - it was started by poor mothers in the US, mostly women of color, too. They were in the worst conditions and fighting for their kids to be healthier and their husbands to have healthy working conditions... it didn't get much tread until white people (women at first, then men) took up the cause.
I followed that thread, you are right it was hilarious. She started posting on April 2012 around when that went down. A few us let her know that she wasn't welcome, and we were accused of piling on her. I believe we were also told to block her.
Damn I wish I could find that. Stellas was the worst.
Nope, I don't think it's ok. Nowhere did I say that. But I do think it happens, and I don't think you can regulate it out of existence.
In my universe, it's not feminism's job to legislate anything. We all know that the law doesn't change what's in people's heads. The job of feminism is to change what's in people's heads.
I'm more than a little dismayed by a lot of the posts I'm seeing in this thread (which I've not yet finished reading) that indicate that many of you see feminism as some homogeneous monolith in which every self-proclaimed feminist is in belief lockstep with every other self-proclaimed feminist. Which is a load of horseshit, and I think y'all know that. Are there a lot of Lutherans who say, "I don't believe in predestination like those Calvinists, so I can't call myself a Christian"? No, because it's ridiculous.
There's no membership, there's no code, there's no set of rules, there's no feminism thought-police that's going to arrest you because you've not made being a feminist your "primary mission in life" (I can't remember who posted that upthread, but...please).
This shit is killing me, people.
That depends who you encounter and who you are exposed to. My exposure to the feminist movement was jarring and exclusionary and I based the identity I chose around my experience. The question at hand was whether I identify as a feminist and my answer was no.
I know that the feminist movement is not homogenous, but I've been around a lot of what I'd call militant feminists (the "you're not feminist enough" types) and choose not to identify with them because I can't relate enough for them.
Regardless of what people might believe, there is no absolute definition of feminism. Choosing not to identify with a movement doesn't mean you're not going to act in accordance with it at least some of the time. I think it's safe to say that any woman who advocates for herself acts as a "feminist," but doesn't mean they choose that identity.
Now, I recognize I'm my own type of feminist. Women should be afforded the same opportunities and pay as men. I'm not by Arbor's standards sex positive. I waited until I was 25, on my wedding night, to lose my virginity. I don't care about anyone else's sex life, you do you. But, I don't like it when people call those waiting for marriage "crazy." If I had names, I'd name them, but I don't remember who has said it. Some women want to wait, and it's their choice. It isn't always because she's been brainwashed. The preschooler gentleman article was ridiculously histrionic. There are real issues out there, and I don't think door holding is one of them. I agree with the black women, that white feminists are trying to get theirs first. Black women matter, and honestly we should be more concerned with listening to the needs of black women and supporting them, before we're fighting the door holder fight. Our priorities are jacked.
I think for me, personally, it's hard to differentiate how much of waiting was an actual, personal choice and how much was religious teaching. I think if it IS your choice, that's great, you do you. I think waiting because you think it's "wrong" to have sex before marriage, then maybe we should talk about WHY you feel that way. If you just feel like FOR YOU it's the wrong choice to have sex before marriage, okay, but if you feel it's wrong morally, or because the bible says so-then I can't really tell if that's YOU, or indoctrination. I am probably not explaining myself well here. I have probably said waiting until marriage is crazy, but that was me being inarticulate. It was not the right choice FOR ME. I personally would spend my life wondering if there was something MORE to sex if I only had ever been with MH. But I have no cares about what people do with their sex organs as long it's consensual, and makes them happy.
As to the last-I agree. 100% Even if you think the door holding, etc. is subtly misogynistic-there are so many bigger things to focus on right now. It's drowning out the message.
I thought so much about the last paragraph during the debate when Hillary was talking about being a woman and people were cheering. If Obama had said those things...McCain would be happy as hell right now.
I can't speak for all white women, but I voted for Obama well aware of his blackness. It's not all of who is, or all of what I admire in him by a long shot, but I was aware of it and very proud to help elect a black president. I would hope that black people would get that same joy. I kind of hate that anyone would side-eye it.
On an interpersonal level, I sometimes find it a stumbling block. I don't want to be all "can I help celebrate your blackness?" or some other cringe-inducing whitest of the white girls approach. But it frustrates me to leave it hanging in the wind, unacknowledged. That's not being a good friend.
I'm rambling now.
You missed my point. I am not saying there was confusion about Obama being black nor that there is confusion about Hillary being a woman. We're all clear on those things. What I am saying is that Hillary has made comments about why electing her would be the right thing to do, in part, because she is a woman. Some of her supporters say the same. Not that any woman would do (lest anyone get the urge to go down that old, tired, well-worn road), but certainly that "it is time for a woman" (and to me, part of what is left unsaid is that, we had a black guy, NOW we better get a woman!) and how part of what she brings to the table is being a woman. My only point is that Obama--and pretty much every black person everywhere--was always real clear that we should not be running around talking about how we needed to elect a black president or that we wanted him because he is black. He could not have stood at a debate and shouted his blackness from the stage the way Hillary shouted about her womanhood. If he did, he would not have been elected. FACT. He was elected in spite of that and sure, it was a cool thing for black people, and--in my view, in your view--for the country, but not because of that.
I followed that thread, you are right it was hilarious. She started posting on April 2012 around when that went down. A few us let her know that she wasn't welcome, and we were accused of piling on her. I believe we were also told to block her.
Damn I wish I could find that. Stellas was the worst.
I have a question and really am having trouble articulating it, but I am kind of curious about this. I see and understand the reasons that black women are saying they don't identify as feminist, and have issues with what is perceived as a white woman's feminist movement. Isn't this somewhat similar and offensive as white people saying they don't identify with BLM or intersectional feminism? I'm having trouble with the grey area here.
I am trying to articulate my thoughts, but they are jumbled so this may come out poorly. I have found that the people who are not "understanding" BLM and intersectional feminism are racists. Full stop. Am I sexist because I have grown tired of being told by some to do this first and care about this other thing over here that benefits this group of people and not me/mine at all etc? I am not anti-woman, I am not embracing the feminist movement as it stands at this point. I will not try to STOP that movement or hinder its progress, I just won't be participating in it.
ETA: anti- seemed too strong
Thanks. I think this actually helps me articulate my question more. Following the general issue of "priority" (not sure what else to call it), you, rightly, identify as black first. Are you offended or do you feel *something* if a white woman identifies first as a woman? That I guess is my grey area. I understand and agree with BLM, that isn't a question. But is it somehow harmful or hurtful that my "priority" is woman first, everything else after? I do recognize that I have the privilege of doing so, there is no need to point that out, I am just wondering if it's seen differently, I guess.
Now, I recognize I'm my own type of feminist. Women should be afforded the same opportunities and pay as men. I'm not by Arbor's standards sex positive. I waited until I was 25, on my wedding night, to lose my virginity. I don't care about anyone else's sex life, you do you. But, I don't like it when people call those waiting for marriage "crazy." If I had names, I'd name them, but I don't remember who has said it. Some women want to wait, and it's their choice. It isn't always because she's been brainwashed. The preschooler gentleman article was ridiculously histrionic. There are real issues out there, and I don't think door holding is one of them. I agree with the black women, that white feminists are trying to get theirs first. Black women matter, and honestly we should be more concerned with listening to the needs of black women and supporting them, before we're fighting the door holder fight. Our priorities are jacked.
I think for me, personally, it's hard to differentiate how much of waiting was an actual, personal choice and how much was religious teaching. I think if it IS your choice, that's great, you do you. I think waiting because you think it's "wrong" to have sex before marriage, then maybe we should talk about WHY you feel that way. If you just feel like FOR YOU it's the wrong choice to have sex before marriage, okay, but if you feel it's wrong morally, or because the bible says so-then I can't really tell if that's YOU, or indoctrination. I am probably not explaining myself well here. I have probably said waiting until marriage is crazy, but that was me being inarticulate. It was not the right choice FOR ME. I personally would spend my life wondering if there was something MORE to sex if I only had ever been with MH. But I have no cares about what people do with their sex organs as long it's consensual, and makes them happy.
As to the last-I agree. 100% Even if you think the door holding, etc. is subtly misogynistic-there are so many bigger things to focus on right now. It's drowning out the message.
It's the commoditizaton of virginity--FEMALE virginity in particular--that bugs. It's one thing to be choosy about when and with whom you have sex, but for so many, it comes from a lifetime of being taught that your (female) virginity is some precious jewel, and it's fucking bizarre.
For me personally, it's gotten to the point that I cannot engage in every thread. Reading everything, while educational, can be overwhelming and disheartening. I am one giant F. That doesn't mean I don't empathize with the something. I'm just trying not to become more bitter, hateful and resentful about the world than I already am.
Specific to the example you provided; I read the article, had an immediate angry reaction but didn't want to engage. But seeing what you posted up thread, I will be more cognizant of those feelings moving forward.
I can't speak for all white women, but I voted for Obama well aware of his blackness. It's not all of who is, or all of what I admire in him by a long shot, but I was aware of it and very proud to help elect a black president. I would hope that black people would get that same joy. I kind of hate that anyone would side-eye it.
On an interpersonal level, I sometimes find it a stumbling block. I don't want to be all "can I help celebrate your blackness?" or some other cringe-inducing whitest of the white girls approach. But it frustrates me to leave it hanging in the wind, unacknowledged. That's not being a good friend.
I'm rambling now.
You missed my point. I am not saying there was confusion about Obama being black nor that there is confusion about Hillary being a woman. We're all clear on those things. What I am saying is that Hillary has made comments about why electing her would be the right thing to do, in part, because she is a woman. Some of her supporters say the same. Not that any woman would do (lest anyone get the urge to go down that old, tired, well-worn road), but certainly that "it is time for a woman" (and to me, part of what is left unsaid is that, we had a black guy, NOW we better get a woman!) and how part of what she brings to the table is being a woman. My only point is that Obama--and pretty much every black person everywhere--was always real clear that we should not be running around talking about how we needed to elect a black president or that we wanted him because he is black. He could not have stood at a debate and shouted his blackness from the stage the way Hillary shouted about her womanhood. If he did, he would not have been elected. FACT. He was elected in spite of that and sure, it was a cool thing for black people, and--in my view, in your view--for the country, but not because of that.
I think I misstated my point - I think in a freer/more equal society Obama's blackness would have been a selling point. It's not his only selling point (please don't think I'm saying that), but it is or should be a check in the positives column.
I don't think our goal should be quota representation, but a white and male dominated "melting pot" culture doesn't work. We should be seeking out talented leaders from underrepresented groups, and part of that is valuing their experiences as part of those groups.
Whether it's Hilary's womanness or Obama's blackness.
ETA: I know that we're not there, but to me getting there needs to be a primary goal for feminists.
I read the first page and the last page. I'm going to have to dedicate the time to read the middle. But in the meantime, HI LURKERS! You should participate.
The MLers went to her ass about that though. It was hilarious.
I followed that thread, you are right it was hilarious. She started posting on April 2012 around when that went down. A few us let her know that she wasn't welcome, and we were accused of piling on her. I believe we were also told to block her.
While I share a lot of the beliefs, I would not label myself as such. It may be because the people that I see that label themselves as feminist are on the Internet and there is a disconnect. Our lives are so completely different. People around here don't have careers, they have jobs. Jobs that do not pay the bills, don't offer paid sick/ maternity leave. Generational poverty and all that entails.
To me, these are exactly the kind of women who would benefit from these policies. Most white collar women may struggle with leave, but most can pull something together. But someone working at Wendy's having to come back to work one week post partum or having to drop out of the workforce altogether because of lack of childcare, that's someone who needs paid leave much more desperately. and, it's going to have a much bigger impact if shes able to avoid poverty with paid leave and quality free childcare that lets her work without spending her whole paycheck on daycare or having to use unlicensed, poor care.
No matter how you look at it minimum wage will not lift someone out of poverty. Yeah, they need the paid leave desperately. It's also easier to dropout all together because living off benefits is the smarter thing to do.
I followed that thread, you are right it was hilarious. She started posting on April 2012 around when that went down. A few us let her know that she wasn't welcome, and we were accused of piling on her. I believe we were also told to block her.
Now, I recognize I'm my own type of feminist. Women should be afforded the same opportunities and pay as men. I'm not by Arbor's standards sex positive. I waited until I was 25, on my wedding night, to lose my virginity. I don't care about anyone else's sex life, you do you. But, I don't like it when people call those waiting for marriage "crazy." If I had names, I'd name them, but I don't remember who has said it. Some women want to wait, and it's their choice. It isn't always because she's been brainwashed. The preschooler gentleman article was ridiculously histrionic. There are real issues out there, and I don't think door holding is one of them. I agree with the black women, that white feminists are trying to get theirs first. Black women matter, and honestly we should be more concerned with listening to the needs of black women and supporting them, before we're fighting the door holder fight. Our priorities are jacked.
I think for me, personally, it's hard to differentiate how much of waiting was an actual, personal choice and how much was religious teaching. I think if it IS your choice, that's great, you do you. I think waiting because you think it's "wrong" to have sex before marriage, then maybe we should talk about WHY you feel that way. If you just feel like FOR YOU it's the wrong choice to have sex before marriage, okay, but if you feel it's wrong morally, or because the bible says so-then I can't really tell if that's YOU, or indoctrination. I am probably not explaining myself well here. I have probably said waiting until marriage is crazy, but that was me being inarticulate. It was not the right choice FOR ME. I personally would spend my life wondering if there was something MORE to sex if I only had ever been with MH. But I have no cares about what people do with their sex organs as long it's consensual, and makes them happy.
As to the last-I agree. 100% Even if you think the door holding, etc. is subtly misogynistic-there are so many bigger things to focus on right now. It's drowning out the message.
I guess I'm stuck on this. Are you saying that if someone believes a particular doctrine because their religious text says so, they are indoctrinated and it's not them that believes it? I feel like this is not fair to religious people.
I am a feminist and I believe everyone on this board is as well, whether they want that label or not. That said, I really appreciate the comments in this thread and it's very eye-opening. I can definitely see how much of the feminist movement has been driven by and geared toward white women, with the expectation that black women will benefit next. That is definitely true and I'm glad it's been pointed out because it never crossed my mind until I read it on this board. I also can understand how women who SAH feel judged by some bad feminists.
Still, it kills me to hear women say they aren't feminist. It perpetuates the myth that feminism is something controversial or that a few nuts speak for all feminists. Lena Dunham doesn't represent you? Fine. That doesn't mean you are not a feminist, it just means she is not a good representation of all feminists.
I see this happening to BLM, too. The movement has been mis-interpreted to be violent and cop-hating. Anyone who says they don't support it is just perpetuating this stupidity.
Post by meshaliuknits on Oct 15, 2015 11:18:57 GMT -5
I'm gonna answer the original question and then come back and see how badly off topic I am.
My answer is "yes, but." Yes, I'm a feminist in that I think women are equal and should be treated and paid as such, BUT I think the movement in general ignores the issues of women of color so I'm not ride or die for it.
I think for me, personally, it's hard to differentiate how much of waiting was an actual, personal choice and how much was religious teaching. I think if it IS your choice, that's great, you do you. I think waiting because you think it's "wrong" to have sex before marriage, then maybe we should talk about WHY you feel that way. If you just feel like FOR YOU it's the wrong choice to have sex before marriage, okay, but if you feel it's wrong morally, or because the bible says so-then I can't really tell if that's YOU, or indoctrination. I am probably not explaining myself well here. I have probably said waiting until marriage is crazy, but that was me being inarticulate. It was not the right choice FOR ME. I personally would spend my life wondering if there was something MORE to sex if I only had ever been with MH. But I have no cares about what people do with their sex organs as long it's consensual, and makes them happy.
As to the last-I agree. 100% Even if you think the door holding, etc. is subtly misogynistic-there are so many bigger things to focus on right now. It's drowning out the message.
I guess I'm stuck on this. Are you saying that if someone believes a particular doctrine because their religious text says so, they are indoctrinated and it's not them that believes it? I feel like this is not fair to religious people.
No, I am saying I would want to talk about it. And that the belief makes it hard to know if it is really a CHOICE, or something forced upon you via your religion. It may very well be a choice. It's just hard for me to KNOW.
Yes, I am. I said this in the other thread, but I am a black feminist and I am very clear on the difference. There are some places where my wants and goals intersect with "mainstream" feminism, but there are things I want that don't matter to them enough to do anything about it, and things they want that don't matter to me enough to do anything about it. From all those racist white suffragists to the love and adoration of women like Lena Dunham, Amy Schumer and Tina Fey (all of whom tend to show or discuss black women in a negative light, that is, when they can be bothered to show or discuss us at all) to Patricia Arquette's "Blacks, you owe US now" comments, it has always been clear to me that white women feminists as a whole have an agenda that sees women of color as a non-factor or afterthought, at best.
That's why I say that things like that gentlemen thread and earlier this year, the women in Hollywood thread don't have anything to do with me. It caused me to get called out of my name on this board by a former regular and another former regular to be quite offended lol, but I am very clear on and quite confident about which battles are mine and which aren't, and if that offends anyone, I promise, you will live .
Post by earlgreyhot on Oct 15, 2015 11:20:09 GMT -5
Ok, haven't read through all the pages. However, I think if you are a woman who believes men and women should have equal rights and protections under the law then you are a feminist.
I think all of women must stay vigilant to the cause of feminism in some degree, but that means different things to different women. And it's going to constantly change as more women are vocalizing their experiences so we all can learn.
I guess I'm stuck on this. Are you saying that if someone believes a particular doctrine because their religious text says so, they are indoctrinated and it's not them that believes it? I feel like this is not fair to religious people.
No, I am saying I would want to talk about it. And that the belief makes it hard to know if it is really a CHOICE, or something forced upon you via your religion. It may very well be a choice. It's just hard for me to KNOW.
Ahh, that makes more sense. Thank you for clarifying.