Trayvon Martin Autopsy Report

[basilosaurus]

ttt, you can get black eyes from scalp wounds in various locations. It wouldn't break your nose, though.

[Chirp]

I bet Zimmerman holed himself up in his basement that night and kicked his own ass... a la Jim Carrey in Liar, Liar.

That way he could produce real injuries to his doctor and he wouldn't need a friend (or stranger) to do it either. I'm sure he knows that both a third party paid to rough him up and a doctor who is willing to produce a false diagnosis are loose ends that he doesn't need during a murder trial.

So, I'm going with the Jim Carrey method. Real injuries and no loose ends willing to sing for the prosecution for the right price.

[Deleted]

I agree with Vanessa. I am certainly not in support or favor of Zimmerman but I do think its important to consider ALL of the evidence. I'm not sure that this board is qualified to know what happened without having seen everything.
That being said, even if Martin DID hurt Zimmerman, there is no excuse for the fatal gunshot. I mean, if he REALLY felt threatened he could have shot him in the leg or somewhere non-lethal to stop him from his 'attack;'.

Let me me very clear I'm not supporting Zimmerman. I just don't think we can automatically call the doctor a liar.

[ttt]

May 17, 2012 11:57:49 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

ttt, you can get black eyes from scalp wounds in various locations. It wouldn't break your nose, though.

Interesting - I didn't know this, thanks.

How long does it take for a black eye to develop after the injury has occurred?

[Chirp]

May 17, 2012 10:57:52 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

And honestly, I don't care if there was as scuffle. I don't care if Martin punched him in the scrote with his giant crips-membership ring and then tried to shove his gang-issued raiders hat down the fucker's throat. Dude shot an unarmed kid for (even according to HIS story) punching him after he stalked him around a neighborhood for 8 minutes. The best version of this story is that Zimmerman picked a fight with a kid who turned out to be a pretty good scrapper and then shot him when he was going to lose the fight. I'm not sure that story keeps you out of jail (or Hell, for that matter).

Yeah, there's this too.

Say Zimmerman did pick a fight with Trayvon and he got his ass kicked. That does not justify a fatal gunshot wound. If you're scared 'cause you got in over your head and need a distraction so you can run away... go for a leg. You don't shoot to kill.

[doctorwho]

May 17, 2012 11:12:25 GMT -5 @vanessadoof said:

But damn, never seen people sure of so much before the mountain of evidence has all come out.

This one really isn't a head scratcher. He lies about as well as a 5 year old. And it doesn't make a spit worth of difference what happened after GZ stalked a minor and disregarded 911 by initiating the exchange.

[basilosaurus]

May 17, 2012 11:58:07 GMT -5 @lauriergirl28 said:

Let me me very clear I'm not supporting Zimmerman. I just don't think we can automatically call the doctor a liar.

Did you see the video of him at the police station? I think that, combined with Zimmerman's changing account, qualifies him as a liar.

[basilosaurus]

May 17, 2012 11:59:33 GMT -5 ttt said:

May 17, 2012 11:57:49 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

ttt, you can get black eyes from scalp wounds in various locations. It wouldn't break your nose, though.

Interesting - I didn't know this, thanks.

How long does it take for a black eye to develop after the injury has occurred?

I'm reaching way back into my obscure knowledge memory, but I think it can be from minutes to hours. I want to say that it depends on location and how much blood. Like, a skull fracture would be within minutes, but a slow seeping wound could take hours. I don't think it would take 24, though. /plays CSI on tv.

[ttt]

So what is Zimmerman's story, again? He was following Trayvon, then Trayvon just randomly came up to him, punched him in the face, knocked him to the ground and started slamming his head against the curb?

The video and photos of him from that night show minor injuries. The police report indicates minor injuries. The EMTs did not give him stitches or send him to the hospital, which indicates minor injuries. He did not go to the emergency room, but waited a day or so and then visited his family doctor, which indicates that his injuries weren't very serious. There seemed to be no blood on any of his clothes, and since we all know head injuries bleed like crazy - even the minor ones - that indicates that his injuries were minor.

He slammed his head against the curb how, exactly? He didn't have any hair to hold onto, so he would have had to hold his head tightly, which should have resulted in some kind of bruising on his neck or the side of his head, right? He did not have a concussion or any sort of internal injury, so his head couldn't have hit the pavement THAT hard.

There are SO many things about the story that make no sense. I don't know how much more evidence we are supposed to wait for before calling bullshit.

[NitaX]

TTT - apparently it matters not that you were the aggressor in this case. You need all the evidence. Forget I stalked a kid. That matters not. I just got my punk ass beat up is all that matters.

[ttt]

May 17, 2012 13:06:17 GMT -5 NitaX said:

TTT - apparently it matters not that you were the aggressor in this case. You need all the evidence. Forget I stalked a kid. That matters not. I just got my punk ass beat up is all that matters.

Stop jumping to conclusions!! You don't know what happened!!!

[marynjoe]

The doctor isn't necessarily lying: maybe Zimmerman beat himself up before he went to the doctor. Also, sometimes injuries really don't make themselves apparent for a day or two and you wake up in pain or look in the mirror and say Oh Crap! I just read yesterday that Trayvon's knuckes were all scraped up and bloody. Today I hear only a small cut on one knuckle. The reports we're hearing are all over the place.

This all wouldn't have happened if Zimmerman had just listened to the police, kept a distance, and let the police handle it. But isntead, hopped up on Neighborhood Watch energy and the recent robberies, he went too far. Then he realized he was in over his head and panicked. I don't think he went into this with the intent of killing somebody, but he did.

The only thing we know for sure is that Trayvon was doing nothing wrong, Zimmerman was told by the police to stay back, Zimmerman didn't, and Zimmerman shot Trayvon. We will never know the whole, factual story, and neither will the jury. They will never get a murder conviction. At the most he will get involuntary manslaughter.

[ttt]

May 17, 2012 13:22:02 GMT -5 marynjoe said:

The doctor isn't necessarily lying: maybe Zimmerman beat himself up before he went to the doctor. Also, sometimes injuries really don't make themselves apparent for a day or two and you wake up in pain or look in the mirror and say Oh Crap! I just read yesterday that Trayvon's knuckes were all scraped up and bloody. Today I hear only a small cut on one knuckle. The reports we're hearing are all over the place.

This all wouldn't have happened if Zimmerman had just listened to the police, kept a distance, and let the police handle it. But isntead, hopped up on Neighborhood Watch energy and the recent robberies, he went too far. Then he realized he was in over his head and panicked. I don't think he went into this with the intent of killing somebody, but he did.

The only thing we know for sure is that Trayvon was doing nothing wrong, Zimmerman was told by the police to stay back, Zimmerman didn't, and Zimmerman shot Trayvon. We will never know the whole, factual story, and neither will the jury. They will never get a murder conviction. At the most he will get involuntary manslaughter.

Why not? Self-defense is an affirmative defense, which means you have to prove that it was self-defense.

The undisputed facts are that Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. He admitted it and all of the evidence shows that clearly. Unless he can show that it was justified, it's murder.

[Deleted]

May 17, 2012 13:09:32 GMT -5 ttt said:

May 17, 2012 13:06:17 GMT -5 NitaX said:

TTT - apparently it matters not that you were the aggressor in this case. You need all the evidence. Forget I stalked a kid. That matters not. I just got my punk ass beat up is all that matters.

Stop jumping to conclusions!! You don't know what happened!!!

That's not what anyone said, nor did anyone use multiple exclamation points like a 12 year old on Facebook. I can't imagine any scenario in which I think GZ did the right thing. Unity horse there. He was wrong for pursuing Martin and for using lethal force, in my opinion.

But it's interesting how people can't let even the possibility that GZ got his ass kicked stand. People just know it's untrue because he wasn't dripping with blood and rushed to the hospital.

My comments were that we don't know if he did or didn't get his ass kicked (yet), and that based on my personal experience my visible symptoms of broken nose were more apparent next day (but I did get an x-ray...do we know if he did?)

I know you're angry about the case, rightfully, but reasonable skepticism in response to the "he kicked his own ass" theory are not the problem here.

[ttt]

May 17, 2012 13:59:38 GMT -5 @vanessadoof said:

May 17, 2012 13:09:32 GMT -5 ttt said:

Stop jumping to conclusions!! You don't know what happened!!!

That's not what anyone said, nor did anyone use multiple exclamation points like a 12 year old on Facebook. I can't imagine any scenario in which I think GZ did the right thing. Unity horse there. He was wrong for pursuing Martin and for using lethal force, in my opinion.

But it's interesting how people can't let even the possibility that GZ got his ass kicked stand. People just know it's untrue because he wasn't dripping with blood and rushed to the hospital.

My comments were that we don't know if he did or didn't get his ass kicked (yet), and that based on my personal experience my visible symptoms of broken nose were more apparent next day (but I did get an x-ray...do we know if he did?)

I know you're angry about the case, rightfully, but reasonable skepticism in response to the "he kicked his own ass" theory are not the problem here.

I wasn't quoting anyone on here - I was making reference to the general "nobody knows what happened! We have to wait for more evidence!" that has surrounded this case since Day 1.

At any rate, it really doesn't seem like he exactly got his ass kicked by anyone, himself included, because even what his family doctor described does not indicate serious, life-threatening injuries.

It's not about whether Zimmerman did the right thing by shooting Trayvon. I certainly hope nobody thinks he did. It's about whether his story makes any sense at all. IMO, it doesn't.

[basilosaurus]

Yes, it's actually quite reasonable to assume that if you didn't get medical treatment you did not, in fact, get your ass kicked. Occam's razor, here.

It's also reasonable to assume if your nose was broken it was bleeding, and thus blood would get on your clothes. It is reasonable to assume that said ass kicking might have physically marked the aggressor.

I'm honestly baffled that those conclusions are thought to be unsupported.

[Deleted]

May 17, 2012 14:08:37 GMT -5 ttt said:

May 17, 2012 13:59:38 GMT -5 @vanessadoof said:

That's not what anyone said, nor did anyone use multiple exclamation points like a 12 year old on Facebook. I can't imagine any scenario in which I think GZ did the right thing. Unity horse there. He was wrong for pursuing Martin and for using lethal force, in my opinion.

But it's interesting how people can't let even the possibility that GZ got his ass kicked stand. People just know it's untrue because he wasn't dripping with blood and rushed to the hospital.

My comments were that we don't know if he did or didn't get his ass kicked (yet), and that based on my personal experience my visible symptoms of broken nose were more apparent next day (but I did get an x-ray...do we know if he did?)

I know you're angry about the case, rightfully, but reasonable skepticism in response to the "he kicked his own ass" theory are not the problem here.

I wasn't quoting anyone on here - I was making reference to the general "nobody knows what happened! We have to wait for more evidence!" that has surrounded this case since Day 1.

At any rate, it really doesn't seem like he exactly got his ass kicked by anyone, himself included, because even what his family doctor described does not indicate serious, life-threatening injuries.

It's not about whether Zimmerman did the right thing by shooting Trayvon. I certainly hope nobody thinks he did. It's about whether his story makes any sense at all. IMO, it doesn't.

Fair enough. Thought you were talking about me. I think I'm defensive because it seems that any attempt to question the open-shut nature of the case and people seem to think you see no problem with what went down. I have huge problems with it. But I'm very interested in how this really happened. Mocking curiosity about whether Zimmerman truly felt threatened doesn't help us learn anything.

[basilosaurus]

I think he truly felt threatened. That doesn't make it true, though.

[basilosaurus]

Who are you, bananafish, with all of 1 post to your name?

If you're going to use a specious argument from authority (who still can't spell or capitalize), care to enlighten us why you think the evidence doesn't show anything?

And, no, self defense is not an "until proven innocent" crime. It's quite the opposite, in fact, although Florida does muddy that up a bit.

This isn't a blog, btw.

[wawa]

sibil and anybody else staring agape at banana in here - check out my "white = easiest difficulty setting" post for an equally "awesome" response.

[downtoearth]

May 17, 2012 17:00:07 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i am a forensic scientist and have seen no data suggesting zimmerman is guilty of murder. i believe the man innocent until proven guilty. until the facts come out, no one knows the truth. i feel that the judgements being made against zimmerman are premature and based on racist feelings, which is very sad. americans reading this blog, let this be a real life lesson to you. your peers will judge you based on their "guts" (which will be heavily swayed by your appearance) and not on reason and truth. so it's always in your best interest to opt for trial by judge jury instead of jury of peers if at all possible.

Ah reverse racism thoughts are exactly what I want in all the forensic scientists in the public sector. By any chance do you golf with Zimmerman's "personal doctor"?

[downtoearth]

May 17, 2012 17:30:51 GMT -5 Nugget T. Brain, The OG said:

May 17, 2012 17:27:16 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Ah reverse racism thoughts are exactly what I want in all the forensic scientists in the public sector. By any chance do you golf with Zimmerman's "personal doctor"?

That's totally racist, not all white people golf. GAWD.

I :heart: you, nugget. I just snorted in my office.

[bumppkathleen]

This is exactly why it was so very wrong that the cops didn't arrest Zimmerman and keep him in custody. Maybe I'm coming at this from the perspective of a defense attorney - I am - but the report of the personal physician creates reasonable doubt in my mind, even though I'm 99% certain the doctor was either lying or Zimmerman had a friend beat him up. It's not Zimmerman's job to prove himself innocent, it's the state's job to prove that he is guilty . . . and the physician's report makes that a lot harder. Even believing deep down it's manufacturered, it exists, and it's the state's fault that it exists (and there isn't a contrary report), but our system does not penalize a defendant for the incompetence of the state. So I think this is enough to potentially walk him. I don't know. The problem to me is so much greater than Zimmerman and so much more about just bad police work.

[marynjoe]

Did Zimmerman leave his house to follow Trayvon? I thought Zimmerman was out on neighborhood watch patrol and noticed Trayvon. I could be wrong.

I agree that Trayvon was probably acting in self defense. He saw some uptight guy following him for 10 minutes and then approach him. Of course Trayvon felt defensive.

I don't see how Zimmerman could be accused of murder, because murder requires aforethought. I think Zimmerman just got in over his head and shot because he felt in danger.

Why in the hell didn't Zimmerman stay back like the police told him!!

[marynjoe]

I still say the most Zimmerman will be found guilty of is involuntary manslaughter. Or, he may walk.

It's not about what the jury thinks. It's what has been proven without a reasonable shadow of a doubt. I don't think there is the evidence necessary to get the sentence that most people want.

[basilosaurus]

Zimmerman was in his car as a self-appointed neighborhood watch. He got out of the car after 911 told him not to.

As others more knowledgeable than I have said, in a self defense, it is not a typical "beyond reasonable doubt" situation. The onus is on the defendant to prove it actually was self defense.

[ttt]

May 17, 2012 17:54:36 GMT -5 @bumppkathleen said:

It's not Zimmerman's job to prove himself innocent, it's the state's job to prove that he is guilty . . . and the physician's report makes that a lot harder.

But this situation is different, because there's no dispute that he's guilty of homicide. Everyone, including Zimmerman, agrees that he shot and killed Trayvon Martin. The question is whether or not it was justifiable homicide rather than second degree murder, and isn't self-defense an affirmative defense, where you have to prove that you were acting in self defense rather than the state having to prove that you were not?

Can a legal type elaborate on this? My law degree is from the University of Law & Order, so...

[ttt]

May 17, 2012 18:24:00 GMT -5 marynjoe said:

I don't see how Zimmerman could be accused of murder, because murder requires aforethought.

First degree murder does, but second degree murder does not.

In order to convict a defendant in Florida of Second-degree murder, the State of Florida must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

The victim is dead;
The death was caused by the criminal act of the defendant;
There was an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

[stephiehun]

May 17, 2012 17:00:07 GMT -5 @bananafish said:

i am a forensic scientist and have seen no data suggesting zimmerman is guilty of murder. i believe the man innocent until proven guilty. until the facts come out, no one knows the truth. i feel that the judgements being made against zimmerman are premature and based on racist feelings, which is very sad. americans reading this blog, let this be a real life lesson to you. your peers will judge you based on their "guts" (which will be heavily swayed by your appearance) and not on reason and truth. so it's always in your best interest to opt for trial by judge jury instead of jury of peers if at all possible.

I watch a lot of CSI, and I think you're an idiot.

[doctorwho]

Yes Bunnybean. Yes indeed.