This is no longer about post about cute kids

[longtimenopost]

Aug 30, 2016 14:27:38 GMT -5 glinda said:

I'm not getting the making call outs gentle tone. Are you supposed to pm the person and say "honey, btw, that comes off a little poorly" and confine the conversation to not hurt feelings?

I mean no one is perfect. I, like awkwardpenguin examine myself on here and IRL FAR more often as a result of conversations on this board. But I'm also a stressed working mother of two and sometimes I might comment without thinking and revert to ingrained bias. In this case, I would appreciate the first level headed person who noticed to PM me or nicely point out that it was careless before it becomes a rush for everyone to condemn me lest risk being called out for not doing so. Then I could immediately realize the error and apologize before it becomes a huge thing. 

I am in no way dictating how others should act. Maybe this is asking to be treated with kid gloves - I don't know. If so, is that a bad thing? 

[isabel]

I think my kid is really cute and often wonder if I'm being objective.

This guy at work brought his daughter in yesterday and she is absolutely beautiful. Like, definitely cuter than my kid. It made me feel like a bad mom. lol

eta: Oh. I see this thread has taken a turn. Ignore me.

etaa: Ok, I've now actually read the thread. That is a fucked up comment cookiemonster. And Awkardpenguin. Geez people.

[longtimenopost]

Aug 30, 2016 14:52:48 GMT -5 @barefootbarista said:

Aug 30, 2016 14:44:35 GMT -5 longtimenopost said:

I mean no one is perfect. I, like awkwardpenguin examine myself on here and IRL FAR more often as a result of conversations on this board. But I'm also a stressed working mother of two and sometimes I might comment without thinking and revert to ingrained bias. In this case, I would appreciate the first level headed person who noticed to PM me or nicely point out that it was careless before it becomes a rush for everyone to condemn me lest risk being called out for not doing so. Then I could immediately realize the error and apologize before it becomes a huge thing. 

I am in no way dictating how others should act. Maybe this is asking to be treated with kid gloves - I don't know. If so, is that a bad thing? 

Yeah no, I'm not about to be treating adults with kid gloves on matters of race.

Being a stressed mother of two should never be an excuse to not watch what you say-because if you say it you thought it.

And you absolutely don't have to. I've no right to it. I'm just saying, I would prefer to be given the benefit of the doubt. I can have an ingrained bias and yes, have thoughts that I can overcome with higher order thinking given a second to evaluate.

However, I completely understand that when you deal with this shit over and over and over again, the patience runs out.

[TamiTaylor]

Aug 30, 2016 12:43:30 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

cubed @246baje TamiTaylor
#mean batsignal

Sorry I was teaching. But wtf is all this nonsense in here. I had to take some damn notes. @cookiemonster03, I have a blue eyed blonde hair kiddo. And the people that fall over themselves to compliment those specific features I automatically have "racist" pinging in my brain. It's disgusting to reinforce that rascist mindset.

awkwardpenguin, I'm a-okay with running people off the board for being racist. However, I do think you have it twisted, there is not a force forcing their immediate exit (some even beg them to stay, wtf) but they choose they coward's way out by cutting and running instead of staying, owning their shit, and then actually taking what they've learned and doing better.

[longtimenopost]

Aug 30, 2016 15:21:42 GMT -5 @stilljustash said:

I'm literally laughing that you wrote "first level headed person".

not one of us angry folks, hmm?

I just..i cannot.

you're absolutely right. your bias is showing.

and fuck no, I'm not level-headed. I, too, am a stressed out mother of two. please give me the benefit of the doubt when I say fuck you!

I don't know what to say. By level headed, I didn't mean what it seems you think I meant. I basically meant, someone who notice. How many noticed what cookiemonster wrote and didn't say anything? 

[isabel]

Aug 30, 2016 14:44:35 GMT -5 longtimenopost said:

Aug 30, 2016 14:27:38 GMT -5 glinda said:

I'm not getting the making call outs gentle tone. Are you supposed to pm the person and say "honey, btw, that comes off a little poorly" and confine the conversation to not hurt feelings?

I mean no one is perfect. I, like awkwardpenguin examine myself on here and IRL FAR more often as a result of conversations on this board. But I'm also a stressed working mother of two and sometimes I might comment without thinking and revert to ingrained bias. In this case, I would appreciate the first level headed person who noticed to PM me or nicely point out that it was careless before it becomes a rush for everyone to condemn me lest risk being called out for not doing so. Then I could immediately realize the error and apologize before it becomes a huge thing. 

I am in no way dictating how others should act. Maybe this is asking to be treated with kid gloves - I don't know. If so, is that a bad thing? 

What? Yes, it's a bad thing! Nobody should have to treat you with kid gloves. You are an adult. You have ingrained biases. It is what it is. But it is absolutely unreasonable to expect that your hurtful comments won't be responded to in kind. Think more. Do better. When you do or say something wrong, you apologize, sincerely, and you don't do it again. If it truly was an accident, you will learn, even if it hurts your feelings in the process.

[longtimenopost]

Aug 30, 2016 15:19:18 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Aug 30, 2016 14:57:18 GMT -5 longtimenopost said:

And you absolutely don't have to. I've no right to it. I'm just saying, I would prefer to be given the benefit of the doubt. I can have an ingrained bias and yes, have thoughts that I can overcome with higher order thinking given a second to evaluate.

However, I completely understand that when you deal with this shit over and over and over again, the patience runs out.

Then pause before posting these things. 
It's not that difficult. 
And no, you can't be given the benefit of the doubt. That's not how these things work when you are trying to stay alive, or keep yourself safe, the way most POC are as they must analyze every social situation they encounter. 

Do the work, or face the consequences.
But, hell to the no to expecting, or preferring, to be met kid gloves.
Not in 2016. 

I do pause. And I apologize for making this about me when it is not. Though it remains true - I wish others to have faith that I'm trying to recognize and overcome unconscious bias, I realize that the request to be treated with kid gloves is more suited to my friends and family IRL. It is unfair for me to ask anyone for that on a public message board with hundreds of women whose truths I do not know. 

[Deleted]

I will say I do hate when the word racist is thrown around all willynilly. I won't go back and check but I don't think anyone called cookiemonster racist. We said it was a fucked up thing to say and no I don't think there is really any other way to say it gently. And yes I call people out for similar comments in real life in a similar manner. Being a stressed mother is no excuse for having fucked up thoughts and then posting them here.

[magpie]

Aug 30, 2016 13:58:16 GMT -5 spaghettisquash said:

Aug 30, 2016 13:45:11 GMT -5 Queen Mamadala said:

I've generally used mixed/biracial. Hapa is specific to people with mixed race Hawaiian heritage, right? I wouldn't mind using another label. 

Yes, hapa is specifically for Hawaiian heritage but a lot of half Asians use it. It just feels wrong to me to use it, especially with the native Hawaiian rights movement's feelings on it.

Edited to add that my kids are half Thai and half white, which is why I started using the term.

I use the term hapa to describe myself (mostly half Asian, half white, a tiny bit of Hawaiian heritage), but people in Hawaii (where my family is from), at least in my experience, definitely use it for half Asian-half white or mixes of Asians, like my half-Chinese, half-Japanese cousin.  The culture there is very much mixed though.  In my experience, the important part is to never describe yourself as Hawaiian unless you are actually native Hawaiian.

I'm also sad to see that you think your kids won't receive affirmation of their appearance as hapas.  In my experience, it was often be quite the opposite, though that might be about where I grew up.  

[sweetday]

Aug 30, 2016 15:34:26 GMT -5 @wandering said:

I will say I do hate when the word racist is thrown around all willynilly. I won't go back and check but I don't think anyone called cookiemonster racist. We said it was a fucked up thing to say and no I don't think there is really any other way to say it gently. And yes I call people out for similar comments in real life in a similar manner. Being a stressed mother is no excuse for having fucked up thoughts and then posting them here.

And then expect to be treated with kid gloves by "level headed people" that didnt point on the bs in the first place. 

[sweetday]

Aug 30, 2016 15:27:33 GMT -5 longtimenopost said:

Aug 30, 2016 15:21:42 GMT -5 @stilljustash said:

I'm literally laughing that you wrote "first level headed person".

not one of us angry folks, hmm?

I just..i cannot.

you're absolutely right. your bias is showing.

and fuck no, I'm not level-headed. I, too, am a stressed out mother of two. please give me the benefit of the doubt when I say fuck you!

I don't know what to say. By level headed, I didn't mean what it seems you think I meant. I basically meant, someone who notice. How many noticed what cookiemonster wrote and didn't say anything? 

And this makes them level headed?

[longtimenopost]

Aug 30, 2016 15:29:28 GMT -5 isabel said:

Aug 30, 2016 14:44:35 GMT -5 longtimenopost said:

I mean no one is perfect. I, like awkwardpenguin examine myself on here and IRL FAR more often as a result of conversations on this board. But I'm also a stressed working mother of two and sometimes I might comment without thinking and revert to ingrained bias. In this case, I would appreciate the first level headed person who noticed to PM me or nicely point out that it was careless before it becomes a rush for everyone to condemn me lest risk being called out for not doing so. Then I could immediately realize the error and apologize before it becomes a huge thing. 

I am in no way dictating how others should act. Maybe this is asking to be treated with kid gloves - I don't know. If so, is that a bad thing? 

What? Yes, it's a bad thing! Nobody should have to treat you with kid gloves. You are an adult. You have ingrained biases. It is what it is. But it is absolutely unreasonable to expect that your hurtful comments won't be responded to in kind. Think more. Do better. When you do or say something wrong, you apologize, sincerely, and you don't do it again. If it truly was an accident, you will learn, even if it hurts your feelings in the process.

I completely agree.

[longtimenopost]

Aug 30, 2016 15:39:40 GMT -5 sweetday said:

Aug 30, 2016 15:27:33 GMT -5 longtimenopost said:

I don't know what to say. By level headed, I didn't mean what it seems you think I meant. I basically meant, someone who notice. How many noticed what cookiemonster wrote and didn't say anything? 

And this makes them level headed?

No. In my example which was not clear - a level headed friend would have realized the slip, understood it was unintentional, and checked me quickly so I could apologize. Like I said to @kirkette, I understand I'm way out of line for wishing for this on a public message board. 

[sweetday]

No - you are not out of line for wishing for this on a public message board - you are out of line for making it seem like the people that responded publicly to a public message are NOT level headed.

[bex]

Shit cubed. I'm so sorry.

[awkwardpenguin]

Aug 30, 2016 15:43:34 GMT -5 cubed said:

@cookiemonster03 , awkwardpenguin , I hope you really and truly realize just how awful perpetuating ingrained biases are. It means stuff like what happened to my 5 year old continues to happen. Just a slip means A LOT. SO please do not pass it on to the next generation. Own it, do better. Move on. Stop bemoaning benefit of the doubt because the rest of us almost never get that. Ever. 

I am so sorry.  I hope I didn't give the impression I was excusing the behavior - my intention was the opposite.  It's very important to me that people are able to hear the message and understand how hurtful even just a slip is when they are called out.  I was questioning the way of conveying that message, but I understand that is my issue.

[spaghettisquash]

Aug 30, 2016 15:36:06 GMT -5 magpie said:

Aug 30, 2016 13:58:16 GMT -5 spaghettisquash said:

Yes, hapa is specifically for Hawaiian heritage but a lot of half Asians use it. It just feels wrong to me to use it, especially with the native Hawaiian rights movement's feelings on it.

Edited to add that my kids are half Thai and half white, which is why I started using the term.

I use the term hapa to describe myself (mostly half Asian, half white, a tiny bit of Hawaiian heritage), but people in Hawaii (where my family is from), at least in my experience, definitely use it for half Asian-half white or mixes of Asians, like my half-Chinese, half-Japanese cousin.  The culture there is very much mixed though.  In my experience, the important part is to never describe yourself as Hawaiian unless you are actually native Hawaiian.

I'm also sad to see that you think your kids won't receive affirmation of their appearance as hapas.  In my experience, it was often be quite the opposite, though that might be about where I grew up.  

I read this article on NPR which made me think that my usage of hapa was incorrect.

www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/08/08/487821049/who-gets-to-be-hapa

And thanks for your kind comments. I really hope that things change and different types of beauty are celebrated.

[longtimenopost]

Aug 30, 2016 15:47:25 GMT -5 sweetday said:

No - you are not out of line for wishing for this on a public message board - you are out of line for making it seem like the people that responded publicly to a public message are NOT level headed.

clearly, level-headed was a bad word choice. All I meant by level-headed, was someone who would notice a biased or racist comment when I, or anyone who is being stupid, let's that stupid show. It had nothing to do with how or when the person is called out.

[docholly]

When people make elitist remarks about poor people, no one comes in saying "give x the benefit of be doubt or gently school her why disparaging people for having less money is wrong."

And, what do you think happens when nothing changes ever and/or changes at the speed of a glacier? Langston Hughes says it better than me...

"What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?"

People are bound to get angry if you keep saying... Just wait, be patient!

[Velar Fricative]

Jesus. I know it's been said but it's worth reiterating - it is not up to people of color to make these discussions "more respectful" so that the rest of us can feel more comfortable or whatever. If this is uncomfortable for us (white people), then 1) good, and 2) it's nothing compared to how POC are made to feel by "seemingly innocuous" comments made every single day.

[magpie]

Aug 30, 2016 15:54:23 GMT -5 spaghettisquash said:

Aug 30, 2016 15:36:06 GMT -5 magpie said:

I use the term hapa to describe myself (mostly half Asian, half white, a tiny bit of Hawaiian heritage), but people in Hawaii (where my family is from), at least in my experience, definitely use it for half Asian-half white or mixes of Asians, like my half-Chinese, half-Japanese cousin.  The culture there is very much mixed though.  In my experience, the important part is to never describe yourself as Hawaiian unless you are actually native Hawaiian.

I'm also sad to see that you think your kids won't receive affirmation of their appearance as hapas.  In my experience, it was often be quite the opposite, though that might be about where I grew up.  

I read this article on NPR which made me think that my usage of hapa was incorrect.

www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/08/08/487821049/who-gets-to-be-hapa

And thanks for your kind comments. I really hope that things change and different types of beauty are celebrated.

Interesting article!  I hadn't actually heard the use of the word hapa outside of Hawaii until I was in grad school (so...2007) in California and a girl, also hapa, whispered across the aisle to me in class one day, "Are you hapa too?"  I like the term because it is so inclusive and so perfectly describes m heritage, but I see how complicated it is.  

[bex]

The first response to Cookiemonster WAS pretty nice, relatively. @jennyandots basically gave her a chance to reword her comments, or take them back completely, but she doubled down.

So saying people need to "be nicer" or "more thoughtful" or whatever in these discussions doesn't fly here.

[bex]

(To clarify it doesn't fly in any thread. But since people WERE fairly nice here and gave cookie the benefit of the doubt.....)

[ribollita]

Holy shit. I hate these kinds of "isn't my kid the cutest teehee" posts so didn't open it until I saw it was nine pages.

Maybe the "society" that gives your BEBH kids "extra points" is not our true society but the white "everyone's a little bit racist" people in your surroundings, cookiemonster. Check yourself.

cubed my heart breaks for you. Our giant boys born a few days apart, perceived so differently because of the color of their skin and eyes. Just breaks my heart. (This is not about me. At all.) Love you.

[longtimenopost]

Aug 30, 2016 16:07:05 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Aug 30, 2016 15:27:33 GMT -5 longtimenopost said:

I don't know what to say. By level headed, I didn't mean what it seems you think I meant. I basically meant, someone who notice. How many noticed what cookiemonster wrote and didn't say anything? 

I didn't actually see cookiemonster's comments (didn't read the middle pages), I only noticed it when jennyanydots called it out.  And she just said "uhh what" or something like that.  I commented on that with a sarcastic comment re: Aryan babies and gave a side eye emoji.  
Hardly "running her off the board."

But the fact that other people had stronger reactions... well, that's fine.  Newsflash: people react to the same situation differently, and ESPECIALLY if it's shit they've had to put up with their whole lives.  We can't expect that if any of us puts our foot in our mouth and hurts other people with a careless comment, that we get to tell them how they should react, and it needs to be "nice" and how they need to comment in a way that "helps us grow" and blah blah blah.  That's not how the world works.  You don't get to tell the person you hurt how they need to react to you - even if you didn't do it on purpose.

I'm not trying to run cookiemonster out of here and I certainly haven't written her off, but if she chooses to do leave, that's her decision - don't blame the posters being "mean."

I hear what you are saying. For some reason, I saw what was going down and felt bad for her thinking "girl I know you know that's wrong so get back here and FIX IT!" I don't know why I felt that way, when clearly she was in the wrong and did apologize.  I regret posting because basically I just made it about me and how I learn best. It doesn't mean that's how I have a right to be taught, nor that a specific group of people are required to be my teachers.  

[chedifuen]

I almost missed this thread as I thought it was likely just pictures of kids. Holy shit, I cannot believe the initial comment and the delicate white tears that followed. White people, pull your shit together or shut the hell up.

Hugs to everyone that is dealing with this complete bullshit.

[bcarp30]

I'm so sorry you're having to again, educate and discuss this and give another teaching moment. I'm so sorry that your parenting concerns are so much worse and stressful than many of us have the luxury of even imaging. cubed and @kirkette those stories are heartbreaking and disgusting that these were said by people in a position of trust and leadership. We all must do better to protect your children. I wish there was more I could say. No one should have to hear things like this, and especially children.

[Yankees21]

I'm so sorry for your experiences, cubed and @kirkette.

We, as white people, need to be called out on our shit, and not in a hand hold-y way- that's not going to get across how remarks are offensive.

[elleblue]

I can't blame any of the woc here for having had enough but you will be missed @natariru.

[skwcm80]

Aug 30, 2016 15:19:18 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Aug 30, 2016 14:57:18 GMT -5 longtimenopost said:

And you absolutely don't have to. I've no right to it. I'm just saying, I would prefer to be given the benefit of the doubt. I can have an ingrained bias and yes, have thoughts that I can overcome with higher order thinking given a second to evaluate.

However, I completely understand that when you deal with this shit over and over and over again, the patience runs out.

Then pause before posting these things. 
It's not that difficult. 
And no, you can't be given the benefit of the doubt. That's not how these things work when you are trying to stay alive, or keep yourself safe, the way most POC are as they must analyze every social situation they encounter. 

Do the work, or face the consequences.
But, hell to the no to expecting, or preferring, to be met kid gloves.
Not in 2016. 

I don't go here but, yes to the bolded. Perhaps if the offenders took the time to do what they ask of POC( considering our actions/words) then the corrections wouldn't be necessary.