I agree that TK did what the campaign told him to do. I think it was out of his comfort zone and probably a part of why he looked so damn nervous for the first half. I mean, I don't know Tim personally lol. But from what I have seen of him, this doesn't seem like his personality but I get why they wanted him to handle the debate this way. From that perspective, I think he was successful, but I don't think a lot of the public will see it that way.
Here's what I don't get about Mike Pence. I completely disagree with him on all his positions and think he's a complete asshat. OTOH, he carries himself in a manner befitting a public servant. He seems to have some damn sense (even if he uses it for evil), and he can discuss policy without yelling or hurling personal insults. How did he think that being Trump's running mate was a good move for his political career??
I think the tweet about Melania is probably the real crux of it. It's not that Trump is so mad that Pence did well; its that he did well without really defending Trump at all.
I mean really what did he say in defense of Trump? He's strong? He'll be a strong leader? he backtracked on almost everything trump has said, when he was asked to defend specific statements from trump he turned the answer around to something entirely different. he made that stupid statement about being proud to know Trump but that rang so false it was hilarious.
He attacked Clinton but he couldn't really get any good digs in, and even his quips about Kaine being prepared seemed.....well, prepared. It was obvious that he had been told to bring up Benghazi, emails, and the Clinton foundation, and he brought up the Clinton foundation in response to a question about North Korea, which was dumb bc then Kaine could respond with stuff about the Trump Foundation, which actually IS shady.
So I think Pence "won" but only in style, which I know matters. But I can see how Trump watching would be annoyed at both the style and the content. Pence won by not really talking a lot about how Trump is going to make America great again.
Here's what I don't get about Mike Pence. I completely disagree with him on all his positions and think he's a complete asshat. OTOH, he carries himself in a manner befitting a public servant. He seems to have some damn sense (even if he uses it for evil), and he can discuss policy without yelling or hurling personal insults. How did he think that being Trump's running mate was a good move for his political career??
Because he was going to lose the governor's race in Indiana most likely and he would fade into oblivion. By signing on to this shit show as the token elected official uber conservative R he earns credit with the party and positions himself as a person important in the party going forward. And he can do things like last night to gain exposure and reach the evangelical base. He doesn't have a high profile job like Cruz to carry him through to the future. If the world was fair, he'd never be able to wash the stench of Trump off him, but I don't know that Trump is going to be defeated soundly enough for this to destroy him like it should. He'll say he did it for the party to try and guide Trump or whatever.
Post by CallingAllAngels on Oct 5, 2016 7:17:20 GMT -5
I think Kaine should have attacked Pence more and Trump less. Trump's shortcomings are well documented. Pence is being touted as reasonable and Kaine needs to remind the American people how far right he is and what a shitshow his term as governor has been.
Also, I thought being Trump's VP nominee would be the worst job this election cycle, but I actually think it provides Pence the most cover. He can claim he was trying to guide Trump and do what needed to be done for his country, the party, conservatives, blah blah blah, where the other fools can say that, but he is kind of walking the walk in a sense by being on the ticket. I think it will be easy to tear down to some degree, but I don't quite think it is the political suicide it should be, especially with his base, and I think it's the best (of a lot of shitty explanations) compared to people like Paul Ryan who have no excuse.
I mean obviously the best option for normal humans is to disavow Trump and refuse to support him, but if you aren't going to do that, I think claiming you were just doing what was best for the country by trying to guide him and be the man standing between Trump and all of our impending doom is probably as good as it gets for a Republican at this point. The others can say that, but it really looks more like they are doing it for re-election and power. Pence will be painted with that power thing especially with the comments about him being able to run things while Trump makes America great again, but I think the argument that he was willing to join the ticket to try and accomplish getting Trump to pivot/be sane/protect us all rings less false since he actually signed on.
Have I mentioned how much I LOATHE MIKE PENCE?! Luckily he is actually a terrible human with a long line of terrible policy behind him which I think will sink him even if he escapes this election relatively unscathed. He looks all right now, compared to Trump, but it's unlikely that anyone will ever be comparable to Trump in 2020 to cover him and not make his record the issue.
If I could pretend the rest of the debate didn't happen, I would say this moment for Kaine made him win:
But unfortunately ITK just was weirdly agressive and hit a million talking points and repeated himself about them even when they weren't related to the question being asked (Korea? Syrian children dying?)
Since when the fuck is Trump pro-life? I think Pence needs to have a little sit down with the Trumpster.
I think Kaine should have attacked Pence more and Trump less. Trump's shortcomings are well documented. Pence is being touted as reasonable and Kaine needs to remind the American people how far right he is and what a shitshow his term as governor has been.
I think the campaign did this on purpose... I mean we can speculate about the reasons, but I don't think they went this way because it just happened organically last night.
I think Kaine should have attacked Pence more and Trump less. Trump's shortcomings are well documented. Pence is being touted as reasonable and Kaine needs to remind the American people how far right he is and what a shitshow his term as governor has been.
I think the campaign did this on purpose... I mean we can speculate about the reasons, but I don't think they went this way because it just happened organically last night.
Agree. If he attacks Pence the rebuttal is "well, he's not the one running for president." And if Kaine had been amazing, people would have been saying they should have flipped the ticket because Hillary is so unlikeable. He was annoying but fine. He got Pence to be a smug dick about refugees, systemic racism, Mexicans, and women's reproductive health.
I think the campaign did this on purpose... I mean we can speculate about the reasons, but I don't think they went this way because it just happened organically last night.
Agree. If he attacks Pence the rebuttal is "well, he's not the one running for president." And if Kaine had been amazing, people would have been saying they should have flipped the ticket because Hillary is so unlikeable. He was annoying but fine. He got Pence to be a smug dick about refugees, systemic racism, Mexicans, and women's reproductive health.
But what if I haaaate Pence and wanted to see him attacked for the smug assface that he is? LOL. Interesting point about Kaine not wanting to outshine Hillary.
And Clinton tweeted this video just now: (can't embed bc in on my phone).
This is what one of the PBS commentators said - that it would be a sticky wicket the next day b/c the Trump campaign would want to own a win but they couldn't say Pence did better than Trump. Looks like he's right
Anyone keep thinking of that ol' knock knock joke last night? Knock-Knock? Who's the---interrupting cow!
ETA: mbcdefg I'm guessing you'll appreciate the Seinfeld reference. Every time Pence said "insult driven campaign" I kept thinking of George auditioning mediocre students for Susan's foundation and discussing the 'biases of standardized tests' - to which the foundation guy responds "these are not tests, these are his grades."
I think Pence won by a narrow margin because he looked more calm and composed. I couldn't stand to listen to either of them, though, and I shut it off halfway through. And I LOVE Tim Kaine.
Here's what I don't get about Mike Pence. I completely disagree with him on all his positions and think he's a complete asshat. OTOH, he carries himself in a manner befitting a public servant. He seems to have some damn sense (even if he uses it for evil), and he can discuss policy without yelling or hurling personal insults. How did he think that being Trump's running mate was a good move for his political career??
I'm not sure he felt he had other options. He was never going to win reelection in Indiana, as he is widely disliked. This was at least a shot at something bigger. Of course, I kind of think he's fucked when they lose. On the other hand, his performance tonight tells me he was and is much more focused on staying a viable part of the Republican Party, for whatever that's worth after this election.
I'm so frustrated by people saying Pence won because of his demeanor or composition. The substance of his statements were demonstrably false--just look at the HRC video above! How does style matter more than content?!?
All the MSNBC commentators talked about last night was how (1) Trump should learn from Pence and (2) that Pence was on this for Pence, cut Trump loose, and set himself up for 2020.
No way that isn't making the Circus Peanut lose his mind.
H is now dying to find a way to watch Sunday night's debate while we are on vacation. I didn't want to be the first one to suggest it but I've been planting seeds. I think this may have done it.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
I guess it's easy to look smooth and calm when your game plan is just to deny deny deny.
I liked Tim Kaine going after him. Maybe he interrupted too much but everything Trump and the campaign had done is disgusting. Someone needs to show how wrong they are. If Kaine would've been more calm, people would've said he was too soft.
I think Pence did an excellent job pitching to Trump's base and justifying Trump's positions. His delivery was far more solid than Kaine's, unfortunately.
However, this was about swaying undecided voters and disillusioned Republicans. In that vein, idk. Pence's continuous dodging of what Trump has said and done may not convince them. But I don't think Kaine convinced them either. I appreciate Kaine going after Pence, but I wish he had gone further off script and taken a more compassionate route than attack dog route. Case in point: Syria! Great, talk about policy there and such, but also talk about the thousands of innocent people just trying to get our of there with their lives. And Kaine missed that opportunity.
Agree. If he attacks Pence the rebuttal is "well, he's not the one running for president." And if Kaine had been amazing, people would have been saying they should have flipped the ticket because Hillary is so unlikeable. He was annoying but fine. He got Pence to be a smug dick about refugees, systemic racism, Mexicans, and women's reproductive health.
But what if I haaaate Pence and wanted to see him attacked for the smug assface that he is? LOL. Interesting point about Kaine not wanting to outshine Hillary.
I know. My husband kept yelling at Kaine "why don't you ask him why he hates gay people?!" But I don't think Trump's base cares if Pence hates gay people, so it wouldn't even have mattered. We shut it off halfway through because I found both of them insufferable. But if Tim Kaine managed to sit across from Mike Pence for 90 minutes and not slap his face off his face, then he's a better man than I.
Headline: "Republicans push for Pence to Help Prep Trump for Next Debate"
And killer quote: “Pence should be at the top of the ticket,” said Pennsylvania strategist Charlie Gerow.
This was absolutely the plan and I am dying laughing. I think Kaine struggled with it because it's not his natural style so he came off nervous and hyper. In the long run that won't matter and he did his job, creating the desired narrative and driving Trump wild.
On the plus side, this poll shows we aren't just going to claim a D win.
Kaine was not bringing the thunder last night. He had moments of greatness, but my expectations were higher. The interrupting was not okay. His facts and content were absolutely better than Pence (hence why I cannot say Pence won. You cannot win by lying IN MY OPINION), but he also had moments where he failed. Pence LOOKED the part, but his words were all lies and bullshit. Demeanor does not matter more than substance to me.
If I pulled out the best moments of the debate they would ALL come from Kaine, but I can't just ignore the moments I wanted to tell him to SHUT THE FUCK UP AND ANSWER THE QUESTION.
I still love him. He got the commercial they needed. I still would be more okay with him as president than Pence or Trump. So, meh.