@tooshort , I agree, we need a YOUR FEELINGS DON'T MATTER disclaimer.
And I am also wondering how tacom thinks she is only UMC. If I am remembering her correctly she grew up poor but is pretty wealthy now due to education/work/marriage. I apologize if I am confusing you with someone else.
You are correct.
This is like the time v said she was middle class.
Look, tacom and other rich people. I get it. My H and I have both had a few big income jumps in the last five years, so we went from "middle class broke" to rich like overnight. I understand the "I don't feel rich" feeling, even though I have enough common sense to talk myself out of it. I still have bills. I don't have the kind of accumulated wealth that one would expect high earning household with no kids. H and I still have to go to our jobs every day. We have to put off buying things we want sometimes. None of these things disprove the fact that we are not rich. You are all too.
Denying the reality of being higher income relative to those around you is as obtuse as walking around denying that white privilege exists.
I was surprised to see Hs income still put us in middle class in NYC because I assumed we were above, so GTFO at owning two homes and still thinking you’re UMC in NYC. People definitely seem to forget that plenty of residents of NYC are supporting themselves on $10/hr or less. If you can afford mortgages on a city apartment and a house elsewhere you aren’t middle class.
I mean, to be fair, the monthly costs of two mortgages + the maintenance on our co-op is lower than what most people pay for rent for similar sized apartments in much more desirable parts of the city - like anywhere in Manhattan or Brooklyn.
That really doesn’t change anything. You still look naive to how privileged you are at having the ability to own a home, let alone two. Yes, often it is cheaper to own than rent. If you can scrape together a down payment, qualify for a mortgage, and afford repairs as they arise. It will also likely bring you equity. Being able to do that on two properties in the NY metro area is absolutely not achievable to someone with a middle class income.
I’m going to blame Urban Institute here, because again, I think it’s ridiculous to try to argue that the top 10% of income owners in a given geographic region aren’t upper class. Certainly it seems especially strange to do so when the bottom 10% of income earners in the same geographic region (still using NYC as the example) actually earn well below the poverty line. Those people are poor (and people who make even more than that are also considered poor), but the people at the other end of the spectrum are somehow not rich?
And I generally like Urban but that isn’t how data works. It’s pandering to people who don’t want to admit they’re rich because they don’t feel rich.
Post by turnipthebeet on May 22, 2018 16:11:48 GMT -5
Does everyone know the HHIs of their friends and families? I know nothing about nobody. Most of our friends live similar lifestyles to us (if not slightly more extravagant), but since that is not the actual indicator of SES, I’m not 100%. My H and I are upper based on that link, but I would imagine that our friends would put us in the middle class category if asked.
i'm annoyed with other posters who always act like they're not as well off as they clearly are.
What worries me is the likelihood that they genuinely believe they’re “upper-middle class” instead of upper class. The UC - the people who have the most power in the corporate and political arenas - being that out of touch with reality leads to serious problems for people with low incomes. How can we even pretend to care about effectively addressing income inequality when the top 10% of the country swears they’re not wealthy?
Post by Queen Mamadala on May 22, 2018 16:14:10 GMT -5
My in-laws are the "we don't feel/look wealthy" wealthy types. Lol shut up. My H casually mentioned their HHI was $350k when they were doing well. But because they had an average house and cars, didn't live expensively, they were/are MC. Nope. They just vacationed a lot, bought timeshares and property and invested a lot.
Guess I'm the opposite of most here because the calculator says we're MC but I would have guessed we're UMC. Sure we could always use more $ but for the most part we can afford to do most things we want to do without any cc debt.
But honestly I attribute a lot of that to the "evils" of our Union. We pay $0 for any health insurance and $0 for our pensions.
As far as friends and family, most are in the same boat as us, with a few on either side.
correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't believe the calculator includes UMC at all. it's middle or upper.
the majority of the people in here saying they're UMC are upper. i don't know why it's such a big deal to say that. we're not far off, so if we WERE including UMC, i would say we fall there instead of middle.
Same for us. We are a few months/step increase from being upper. It is what it is.
And I work with people who make 6 figures and claim they are middle class. GTFO you just spent a week at Universal Studios.
ETA: And I will be hella excited when we get there. I fucking work hard. No my job is not considered prestigious or white collar, but guess what? It pays be a salary that is about to put me in Upper fucking class. So suck on that bitches.
I'd say that most of our close friends are MC/UMC. We still gravitate to people we've known since we were in school or as young adults starting out. We haven't made as many friends from age 35-45 since we moved quite frequently. My mom and stepdad are both UC individually. Our HH has hit that level as well. We have family on both sides and friends in our lives that cover the spectrum from poverty to UC
The example above is not the best, but I do think it’s important to point out how wealth and annual income can paint dramatically different pictures for the same household and why one measure alone (HHI) doesn’t always cut it, particularly when we’re differentiating between UMC and upper class. Isn’t that at least part of the reason class boundaries remain controversial?
Well, sure, but if you have an upper-percentile income then you can’t claim to be middle class just because you don’t have family money. It only works in one direction.
In other words, I don’t think anyone is arguing that my H’s second cousin who’s an art curator for a living (and a trust fund kid) is middle class because she makes a paltry salary. But a $300k income isn’t negated by the fact that it’s not supplemented with anything.
I do think wawa and bex raise a good point about the non-economic factors that determine class (like education or family name.) But that distinction is less about wealth vs. income.
Well to be clear I think we are upper class. We should be the epitome of “but I don’t feeeeeeeel rich” but I know we are upper class. Just because my brother makes high 6 figures doesn’t mean I’m not upper class too. There are just degrees ha.
But I meant more like what others have said - the person making 30k with the trust fund and family vacation home in Nice (is that somewhere rich people have homes?? Lol) is upper class. The person making 300k with no family wealth is also upper class in my opinion.
Post by stephm0188 on May 22, 2018 16:17:41 GMT -5
We're UC and yes, we crossover.
It feels like one of those expectation vs reality memes. Back when I was debating whether to buy gas or groceries because I sure as hell couldn't afford both, I imagined that upper class meant driving a Porsche home to your mansion. Young dumb me missed the point- there's a certain level of privilege associated with being UC. I can't sit here and say "But I don't *feel* UC!!" because that's a load of crap. If I don't feel it, it's because I don't have to worry about paying bills or being subjected to additional fees at my bank for having a low balance, or paying more for groceries because of lack of access.
Oh goldengirlz sorry! I’m on my phone and see you made the comment about the art curator that I agree with lol. I didn’t mean to quote you back at you haha.
I just wanted to clarify that I think we are upper class. I agree with you that the wealth vs income distinction goes one way really.
Post by twilightmv on May 22, 2018 16:20:06 GMT -5
I’m not in denial about being UC. I just posted before the scale and was wrong. We use an affluence definition at work that is more net worth based, so that’s what I was thinking of. People I know don’t really qualify as affluent in the way I’m used to using that word, but yeah, by the income scale, they are UC probably or close to it.
I don't understand the comments about the calculator saying they are at the middle of the middle or the bottom of the upper. I only get "middle". It says that middle includes 51% of the people in my metro-area, but it's not telling me I'm at the 51st percentile. I put in a range of incomes (from 53,000 - 150,000) and they all brought back "middle" and the bar graph say that is 51%. Is that what everyone else did? Based on entering multiple incomes, I am at the middle of the middle. I think that's about right.
I do cross SES, but the people closest to me are probably at the same or lower. @@@@@@ Friends I've made from DD's school probably have a similar family income based on their jobs and where they live, but I feel like most of them have more disposable income. They go on vacations more often, go out to eat often, go do fun stuff, LOL. We struggle with all those things, but I'm looking forward to next fall when I no longer have to pay for daycare/preschool for twins.
My extended family growing up had a variety of incomes, but nobody in my parent's generation went to college, even the "rich" uncle who started his own business. I think that level-set everyone.
My brother does pretty well and now that he's married to someone else who has an income, they might reach the UC. Dad is more comfortable than he was when I was growing up, but he and his wife are probably solidly MC. He is focused on retirement and is careful with his money so he doesn't spend a lot, but he did spend $2500 flying my family and me to visit at Christmas. We would not have been able to go otherwise.
To be fair, the Pew calculator is looking strictly at HHI, not "class". DH and I are solidly upper income. We both come from middle class families. Neither of us came from money, but we weren't on food stamps or anything. My mom is from a poor, rural area in Oklahoma, where my immigrant great-grandparents settled after getting off the boat from Lebanon in the early 1900s. They owned a successful general store business. But my grandparents were basically poor and didn't have anything. They lived in the family home with my two great aunts. I'd classify them as working poor. My dad's side of the family was solid middle-class, although that side of the family didn't have accumulated wealth to pass down either. My parents would have been middle class while I was growing up, my mom is still middle class, my dad passed away 2 years ago with not a penny to his name after living on SSI-disability for 15 years due to mental illness issues. As far as our friends go, most are similarly situated to us financially and with college degrees. Both sides of our families are all over the place from working poor to upper class. Other than my cousin who graduated from Notre Dame, DH and I are basically the most well-off.
Post by goldengirlz on May 22, 2018 16:24:08 GMT -5
I mean, I do think it would be interesting to hear from someone who came from a lower-income family and is now pulling in somewhere in the mid-six figures as the owner of a plumbing or auto repair business. I’d be fascinated to hear what aspects of upper-class society are still closed to him or her. Because I do believe the U.S, unlike other countries, is still a place where money talks. Maybe you won’t be accepted into every country club, but does that really matter?
The calculator says upper. The main thing that keeps us from FEELING upper is that we don't (yet) own a house. Well, and we ride the bus somewhat regularly, which most rich people here do not do, LOL.
I actually told my H today that of everything I've done in recent years, the one that may have made me feel the most grown up was giving $100 to a college student from my church who is raising money for his summer music program. I did not budget that $100, but we can afford it.
Does everyone know the HHIs of their friends and families? I know nothing about nobody. Most of our friends live similar lifestyles to us (if not slightly more extravagant), but since that is not the actual indicator of SES, I’m not 100%. My H and I are upper based on that link, but I would imagine that our friends would put us in the middle class category if asked.
I know what they do for a living, and I know the general ranges of pay for those jobs, so I guess so? I could be off, but esp in my university/government city, salaries are pretty standardized.
Also, I find the combo of the socio and economic parts really interesting in determining socioeconomic class. Like, I have friends who are low income, but most of them are graduate students or underemployed folks with college degrees. My dad, OTOH, only has a high school education and is basically a caricature of a rural blue collar guy. But with his pension and his new business he started, he's doing better than ever financially. He probably has at least the same purchasing power as H and I do with our advanced degrees because he doesn't have student loans or daycare. So the former group has very little money but probably can fit in better in more "refined" social situations than my dad, even though he has more money.
@tooshort , I agree, we need a YOUR FEELINGS DON'T MATTER disclaimer.
And I am also wondering how tacom thinks she is only UMC. If I am remembering her correctly she grew up poor but is pretty wealthy now due to education/work/marriage. I apologize if I am confusing you with someone else.
You are correct.
This is like the time v said she was middle class.
Look, tacom and other rich people. I get it. My H and I have both had a few big income jumps in the last five years, so we went from "middle class broke" to rich like overnight. I understand the "I don't feel rich" feeling, even though I have enough common sense to talk myself out of it. I still have bills. I don't have the kind of accumulated wealth that one would expect high earning household with no kids. H and I still have to go to our jobs every day. We have to put off buying things we want sometimes. None of these things disprove the fact that we are not rich. You are all too.
Denying the reality of being higher income relative to those around you is as obtuse as walking around denying that white privilege exists.
Exactly. My H's income places us as UC. Our feelings about whether we "feel rich" or not are completely irrelevant. The majority of our friends are middle class with some who may be hovering between lower and middle depending on the year. From the outside we look like we're living a solid "middle class" existence. But we don't have any real money stress and can afford all needs and most wants. It's actually a huge difference from our friends living here who have a middle class HHI. Many who are middle class income wise in SoCal are struggling. And we know several adults who've always had roommates because that's the only way they can afford rents, never mind owning any property.
Feeling rich (or not) is a completely different conversation.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on May 22, 2018 16:33:17 GMT -5
I did the calculator and it puts us at upper class. Which I have no problem believing. We're not rolling in cash but we do well.
BUT - we just both have extremely recent promotions/raises. Not huge ones, and extremely recent so we haven't really felt it yet. I did the calculator for our pre-HHI and it put us at middle class.
Even in New York City a household income above 200,000 a year is in the top 10% of income earners. I really do not see how that can be anything other than upper class, no matter what other factors you’re attempting to consider.
I get that no one wants to claim they are wealthy but this idea that “everyone” is upper middle class except multi billionaires is really grating and doesn’t reflect the data.
Especially considering that the average HHI in NYC (not the greater NYC area, just NYC) is around $60,000. When you make over 3x that you can't claim middle class (or lower) just because you're not going to as many overpriced restaurants or don't have as many designer clothes as your friends, or whatever else is making people feel they're "poor". I've managed to live nearly 20 yrs in NYC while working in social services so I have little to zero patience for that bullshit.
I mean, to be fair, the monthly costs of two mortgages + the maintenance on our co-op is lower than what most people pay for rent for similar sized apartments in much more desirable parts of the city - like anywhere in Manhattan or Brooklyn.
That really doesn’t change anything. You still look naive to how privileged you are at having the ability to own a home, let alone two. Yes, often it is cheaper to own than rent. If you can scrape together a down payment, qualify for a mortgage, and afford repairs as they arise. It will also likely bring you equity. Being able to do that on two properties in the NY metro area is absolutely not achievable to someone with a middle class income.
The second one is not in the NYC metro area (it's in a LCOL area of NE PA) but, yes, we were able to pull together a down payment for it.
I'm not naive at how much privilege I have. Upper class feels (yes, feels) wrong because I still have to pay my student loans each month and when we decided to upgrade our 1 car to an SUV, we took out a loan because a monthly payment was much more reasonable than emptying the bank account to pay for it on the spot. The discussion about income vs. wealth really speaks to me because DINKs who have the same HHI but paid off their mortgages have a much, much stronger financial position.
Really though, my H is the one that really bristles at the UMC label, let alone UC. I'm like, I wasn't allowed to have post-its as a 10 year old and look at me now. But, as I mentioned, he regularly deals with and socializes with true 1%ers. And constantly is looking at our finances. I think he pictures UC more like the people who are the top of the top.
Even in New York City a household income above 200,000 a year is in the top 10% of income earners. I really do not see how that can be anything other than upper class, no matter what other factors you’re attempting to consider.
I get that no one wants to claim they are wealthy but this idea that “everyone” is upper middle class except multi billionaires is really grating and doesn’t reflect the data.
Especially considering that the average HHI in NYC (not the greater NYC area, just NYC) is around $60,000. When you make over 3x that you can't claim middle class (or lower) just because you're not going to as many overpriced restaurants or don't have as many designer clothes as your friends, or whatever else is making people feel they're "poor". I've managed to live nearly 20 yrs in NYC while working in social services so I have little to zero patience for that bullshit.
Totally agree. Also, if you don’t have a lot of disposable income or live extravagantly because you’re doing things like saving for retirement or saving for future college funds, or just generally saving money so you’re not living hand to mouth, that doesn’t mean you’re middle class. Those are largely things that middle class people, especially in HCOL areas, can’t do.
I mean, I do think it would be interesting to hear from someone who came from a lower-income family and is now pulling in somewhere in the mid-six figures as the owner of a plumbing or auto repair business. I’d be fascinated to hear what aspects of upper-class society are still closed to him or her. Because I do believe the U.S, unlike other countries, is still a place where money talks. Maybe you won’t be accepted into every country club, but does that really matter?
My dad was raised in lower income and is now upper income, but since his career is "prestigious" there are really no remnants of lower income life.
ETA: He also does not live in the same area he was raised in which may make a difference.
That really doesn’t change anything. You still look naive to how privileged you are at having the ability to own a home, let alone two. Yes, often it is cheaper to own than rent. If you can scrape together a down payment, qualify for a mortgage, and afford repairs as they arise. It will also likely bring you equity. Being able to do that on two properties in the NY metro area is absolutely not achievable to someone with a middle class income.
The second one is not in the NYC metro area (it's in a LCOL area of NE PA) but, yes, we were able to pull together a down payment for it.
I'm not naive at how much privilege I have. Upper class feels (yes, feels) wrong because I still have to pay my student loans each month and when we decided to upgrade our 1 car to an SUV, we took out a loan because a monthly payment was much more reasonable than emptying the bank account to pay for it on the spot. The discussion about income vs. wealth really speaks to me because DINKs who have the same HHI but paid off their mortgages have a much, much stronger financial position.
Really though, my H is the one that really bristles at the UMC label, let alone UC. I'm like, I wasn't allowed to have post-its as a 10 year old and look at me now. But, as I mentioned, he regularly deals with and socializes with true 1%ers. And constantly is looking at our finances. I think he pictures UC more like the people who are the top of the top.
The fact that you have enough money in savings to consider buying an SUV in cash (even if it would drain your liquid savings) is a pretty clear indicator that you are not middle class. This puts you ahead of the household wealth of a huge portion of the population.
No matter how much you dig in on this it’s actually not about how you feel or what you picture. Everyone in the world can point to someone who makes more or has more, but that doesn’t mean that only the 1% is upper class and no one else.
I haven’t clicked on a calculator in this post but have used one in the past. They all seem to vary on definition or segment differently. If the segments are lower, middle, upper for this exercise then we are upper.
It's messy and I understand my answer will irritate many, but I do find it to consider other markers of class. I'd argue that we're rich, but I don't know if we have the social rank to feel comfortable calling myself upper class, at least in accordance with models by Geeghley (2004) or Gilbert (2002). Word vomit below.
Markers of upper class status:
HHI
No debt (but we also don't own anything - cars, home etc)
Financial security to take an unpaid short-term leave of absence during pregnancy/post-partum
Paid help (though now gone since I'm home)
Markers of UMC status:
Financials: No family wealth on either side. Recently acquired money through wages alone with zero job security, which also means a relatively low net worth for our HHI. No passive income.
Social network: I've never in my life had a "family friend" who could help me secure an internship, job, interview, etc. I've never been invited to a charity gala or a red carpet or anything fancier than a work holiday party. I don't know a single politician. I have zero friends who attended Ivy League schools. I have zero friends (or even distant connections) with recognizable family names. I don't know what to do with more than two forks in front of me, which means I don't feel comfortable at fancy restaurants, so I've successfully cancelled every attempt my husband has made to take me to one in the 10 years we've been together. Basically, I have minimal influence outside of the walls of my 1 bedroom apartment and we have nothing to ever help us get back to the lifestyle we currently have should my husband be pushed out of his line of work (which is very common - not many 35+ year old people doing his job).
Values: (and this one has more to do with feelings, which I know is a dirty word) we budget our money carefully because this kind of income stream probably won't be there for long. Instead of funneling our money into securing the future class of this fetus (prestigious preschools, private kindergarten etc) or building our own reputations (no golf memberships over here), we save our money and help my mom and sister stay afloat- paying rent, replacing broken appliances, buying pet supplies, and sometimes just sending cash. (I'm incredibly, incredibly grateful that we're able to do this if that is not clear.) But how we spend our money certainly doesn't help us guarantee future power like the truly elite.
LOL that taking out a loan for an SUV so you don’t empty the bank account doesn’t feel upper class. You know that actual middle class people couldn’t pay for an SUV by emptying their bank accounts, right? Not unless said SUV is a 1996 Ford Explorer.