Fwiw I used to feel this way 8, 9 years ago when my husband first started to make decent money. I don't feel that way anymore and I haven't in a long time. It's not a hard code to crack (I'm sure it helps that we're white), at least where we live, and building your savings will give you that feeling of security. It just takes time, which I think may be why tacom feels the way she does.
Well, I am over 10 years into it now and am an equity partner in a law firm and still feel this way. It isn't about financial security, my savings are just fine and I am well aware that I will likely never be financially insecure again (barring a major catastrophe). I don't know that there is a way to say this that is not offensive, but I suspect that, in addition to of course individual people's feelings being different, our respective comfort levels also have to do with the fact that you are a female spouse of a high earning white male. In my case, I am the high earner and I am female. Respectfully, I don't find it an easy code to crack in my situation.
I need more context here. Were you just minding your business and someone approached you and asked where you are from? Are you not white?
I was walking out the door after a school event, and someone asked me where I'm from. I may have given her a "that's a crazy question" look because she then looked at my kids and asked "where are you from" and answered it herself with the name of our city with a laugh. I'm brown.
Post by emoflamingo on May 23, 2018 12:50:12 GMT -5
I think our friends and family group crosses the SES lines fairly well. We have relatives who own hotels, who are judges and lawyers, though most of our friends are in similar fields and would be solidly MC, and we have friends and family who are in lower class. I’m not sure we know anyone at the poverty line, but a lot of my family members are very tight lipped about money. We generally get along and make friends with most people, mostly because we don’t care to keep up with the Joneses, neither H or I really grew up with a lot so maintaining a fancy lifestyle isn’t really our thing. Our families consist mostly of tradespeople or truck drivers. My dad did own his own company and owned 8 trucks at one point (they aren’t cheap, they can cost between $140-200k new - my dad mostly bought lightly used). We didn’t hurt for money, but he was and is still extremely frugal (my second car that was a reward for a full ride scholarship had a broken gas gauge and was a repo, he fixes everything himself and he once saved his clothes when he lost weight because he could work in the garage and not worry about grease though he had to buy a new belt because the pants fell off too much and he got grease on it). I know that being white has helped move between the classes.
One other piece of data that I'm wondering if people are fully contexualizing in their replies is what constitutes poverty level. Not being sassy, just genuinely curious because when we do focus groups on Medicaid eligibility participants are always blown totally away by how low of an income is considered 100% federal poverty level. I'm guessing most people who don't deal with eligibility standards themselves (personally or through their job) don't fully grasp how incredibly low these are, especially given that they don't account for geographic area at all.
For 2018 it's as follows (more in chart): 1 $12,140 2 $16,460 3 $20,780 4 $25,100
I am fully aware. It is a tough life to survive and move beyond. I am aware of current status of family memmbers because I have helped apply for benefits, managed money, helped pay bills, and filed taxes.
However, your point is well taken. The lack of awareness of just how low it is is a major issue. It is equally problematic to the assertion of "I'm not rich because I don't feel rich."
Although I said we cross less over time, I will say most of my colleagues are likely solidly middle class. My H's family would fit in that category, too. As well as some of my family.
I admittedly have less and less interaction with members of the lower class. Some of h's family fit those criteria. I have, unfortunately, become more sheltered as I have aged. A huge chunk of our social lives either revolves around our private school or around charity galas and such. So that significantly narrows down who we interact with regularly.
We need to branch back out.
How do you go about doing that? When I was going up my Momma played softball with her coworkers. She worked for DC government so I got exposed to a different class of people. That's the only time I ever crossed the Anacostia river and went into S.E. DC.
We used to do a lot more that involved a spectrum of people. Our old softball team is a great example. Actually, now that you bring that up, I forgot about DD and DS's sports teams. They both are very diverse. However, we don't do much outside of team events.
Its just right now we are way too focused on my job (the school) and H's job which involves a lot of charity galas and those sorts of things that involve rich people since those are his clients. We are mostly hanging out with other parents from school. Even if class wasn't a factor, we need to branch out. It becomes incestuous.
I have 2 sisters and the 3 of us are split between SES. I feel like we could be a good case study on how all siblings don't turn out the same...
- Older sister dropped out of high school, currently lives with her boyfriend and 3 year old. She bakes cookies and cakes out of his house and sells them (advertised via Facebook), income is under the table. I believe she (+her daughter) is still on Medicaid. - Younger sister graduated from a mid-tier college and is a SAHM to 2 kids. Her husband works in management in the restaurant industry. - I graduated from a top-tier college, where I met my husband. We both have FT well paying jobs, 1 kid, max retirement, etc.
So I don't know about where she lives, nor do I remember where I saw this, but I have definitely read that in the U.S., women generally marry laterally or up in terms of socioeconomic status/educational achievement while men tend to marry laterally or down. So you'll see male MDs married to grade school teachers with a BA and maybe eventually a master's. And you'll see female MDs married to other MDs or PhDs or JDs or maybe high ranking business execs with a BA. But you won't see a female MD married to a man with a BA who sells insurance. (Before everyone hits me with their anecdotes, this was obviously generally speaking and yes, of course there are always exceptions.)
Generalizing here, but women tend to find men who are providers "attractive" (I know I do, broke ass men aren't sexy to me, sorrynotsorry) and men don't tend to care if a woman makes a lot of money plus they care more about looks.
Yeah, I agree this is a fair generalization. That said, I also think there are some men out there who are insecure about not being the breadwinner, and society in general seems to expect that the man is the breadwinner. These things probably also influence people's choices as well.
That said, I can't judge women for putting some premium on earning power in dating. After seeing two successful friends be married to very lazy men, I get it. (one got out and hers is better for it, but not without serious financial set backs). Not every person who desires a hard working, successful person is a gold digging elitist snob. A lazy man can really ruin a woman.
I know a woman with a professional degree who married a blue collar guy a few years ago. She said she gets a ton of shit about it. Apparently people at her job get super weird or snooty over the fact that he’s got a blue collar job. She is a WOC so that probably compounds the judgment.
I know someone who fits this description too. Does your friend teach at USC by any chance??
I know a woman with a professional degree who married a blue collar guy a few years ago. She said she gets a ton of shit about it. Apparently people at her job get super weird or snooty over the fact that he’s got a blue collar job. She is a WOC so that probably compounds the judgment.
I know someone who fits this description too. Does your friend teach at USC by any chance??
Generalizing here, but women tend to find men who are providers "attractive" (I know I do, broke ass men aren't sexy to me, sorrynotsorry) and men don't tend to care if a woman makes a lot of money plus they care more about looks.
Yeah, I agree this is a fair generalization. That said, I also think there are some men out there who are insecure about not being the breadwinner, and society in general seems to expect that the man is the breadwinner. These things probably also influence people's choices as well.
That said, I can't judge women for putting some premium on earning power in dating. After seeing two successful friends be married to very lazy men, I get it. (one got out and hers is better for it, but not without serious financial set backs). Not every person who desires a hard working, successful person is a gold digging elitist snob. A lazy man can really ruin a woman.
I think there’s a difference between lazy and low-earning though. I do agree, though, it’s important for people to have similar ideas about money before they get married. Someone who’s spendy and likes fancy things probably wouldn’t be happy being married to a local newspaper reporter, no matter how hard he works. (But she probably wouldn’t be happy with a high-earning penny pincher either.)
Similarly, you hear constantly about high-earners who burn out and leave to pursue a creative field or whatever. Again, there’s a difference between earning power and values.
Yeah, I agree this is a fair generalization. That said, I also think there are some men out there who are insecure about not being the breadwinner, and society in general seems to expect that the man is the breadwinner. These things probably also influence people's choices as well.
That said, I can't judge women for putting some premium on earning power in dating. After seeing two successful friends be married to very lazy men, I get it. (one got out and hers is better for it, but not without serious financial set backs). Not every person who desires a hard working, successful person is a gold digging elitist snob. A lazy man can really ruin a woman.
I think there’s a difference between lazy and low-earning though. I do agree, though, it’s important for people to have similar ideas about money before they get married. Someone who’s spendy and likes fancy things probably wouldn’t be happy being married to a local newspaper reporter, no matter how hard he works. (But she probably wouldn’t be happy with a high-earning penny pincher either.)
Similarly, you hear constantly about high-earners who burn out and leave to pursue a creative field or whatever. Again, there’s a difference between earning power and values.
Agree completely. I think I was blending two different concepts, but yes, I'm with you. I was thinking that as I typed it and waffled as to which to type. The reason I chose lazy instead of low-earning is because I think it's more generally applicable to all income levels, and at least from what I've seen with friends and family, women seem to be more likely to wind up getting screwed over financially by a higher earning lazy person than they are a lower earning hard worker. Because if they don't have any sort of work ethic or feel a need to provide, there will never be dependable income and they will be useless around the house.
I think there’s a difference between lazy and low-earning though. I do agree, though, it’s important for people to have similar ideas about money before they get married. Someone who’s spendy and likes fancy things probably wouldn’t be happy being married to a local newspaper reporter, no matter how hard he works. (But she probably wouldn’t be happy with a high-earning penny pincher either.)
Similarly, you hear constantly about high-earners who burn out and leave to pursue a creative field or whatever. Again, there’s a difference between earning power and values.
Agree completely. I think I was blending two different concepts, but yes, I'm with you. I was thinking that as I typed it and waffled as to which to type. The reason I chose lazy instead of low-earning is because I think it's more generally applicable to all income levels, and at least from what I've seen with friends and family, women seem to be more likely to wind up getting screwed over financially by a higher earning lazy person than they are a lower earning hard worker. Because if they don't have any sort of work ethic or feel a need to provide, there will never be dependable income and they will be useless around the house.
I agree so much with this. I grew up wealthy and did not marry a high earner, as I think my dad would have preferred initially. But, my husband has worked extremely hard to double his income since we met, shares household responsibilities equally, has literally the simplest taste imaginable in everything, and has a very flexible schedule (he is self-employed), so we won’t have to pay for daycare when the baby is born. Some people hear his career (musician/music teacher) and write him off as not having a “real job,” but it very much is, and along with my career has led to a comfortable life. Marrying “down” (ew) isn’t always bad. lol
Post by downtoearth on May 24, 2018 0:19:23 GMT -5
This is not where I thought the thread would go. I know most of us are professional women, but I just assumed there would be more people who had a tough time moving up in classes.
I talked with my mom recently about this and she noted that the first time she felt like she had a buffer or could relax with money was when she was about 40 and inherited some money from her ILs. I feel like i’m There now even though we make almost twice what my parents did.
we are UC according to the calculator listed, which doesn't surprise me. While we don't live the luxurious lifestyle of a one-percenter (that apparently is the only lifestyle that qualifies you as UC according to some people lol), we are comfortable. We own a small home in a nice neighborhood, we can pay our mortgage/bills, we have two working cars, can buy a coffee when we feel like it and if we need to visit a doctor we don't have to worry about the $30 co-pay, I'm able to fly home with my children to see my family.
most people we spend time with are probably around where we are, some lower some higher. I have one friend that is low income/receives government assistance but honestly we don't know a lot of actual low income people in our area.
My family has a range though. I grew up poor and my parents are poor still/on government assistance but they do live in a country that is a little kinder to people with no income, and have seven children of varying incomes to help them out. My siblings vary in income but I would say mostly middle to upper middle income wise. I have a lot of first cousins, some of them are low income.
Because of the free university where I grew up, despite being poor growing up I still wouldn't say it was a huge struggle for me to cross class lines. My parents were very strict about school and encouraged us strongly to take our education seriously (In order to escape poverty/have an easier life than they did). So I went to college and got a degree and now I live in America and work as a software engineer. But I don't feel it was a struggle at least not on my part (My parents were the ones who struggled IMO not me)... I feel extremely lucky really if anything.
These things used to not bother me, but now they make me angry. I grew up just brushing off microaggressions from lighter skinned brown people (though they probably don't want to be labeled brown).
I used to brush them off as well. I feel you. Tell me more about microagressions from brown people who don't want to me labeled brown. I never miss an opportunity to be mad.
So I don't know about where she lives, nor do I remember where I saw this, but I have definitely read that in the U.S., women generally marry laterally or up in terms of socioeconomic status/educational achievement while men tend to marry laterally or down. So you'll see male MDs married to grade school teachers with a BA and maybe eventually a master's. And you'll see female MDs married to other MDs or PhDs or JDs or maybe high ranking business execs with a BA. But you won't see a female MD married to a man with a BA who sells insurance. (Before everyone hits me with their anecdotes, this was obviously generally speaking and yes, of course there are always exceptions.)
This generally holds true for most people I know.
I know a woman with a professional degree who married a blue collar guy a few years ago. She said she gets a ton of shit about it. Apparently people at her job get super weird or snooty over the fact that he’s got a blue collar job. She is a WOC so that probably compounds the judgment.
I can’t picture a white man’s professional life being made unpleasant over his wife’s lack of college degree.
I have absolutely had people turn their nose up at my husband due to his blue collar job. It makes for some awkward conversation when he accompanies me to events and people ask him what he does. I hate it because I know the judgement makes him feel like shit.
It goes both ways though. I've found plenty of judgement from people in his workplace too.
This is not where I thought the thread would go. I know most of us are professional women, but I just assumed there would be more people who had a tough time moving up in classes.
I talked with my mom recently about this and she noted that the first time she felt like she had a buffer or could relax with money was when she was about 40 and inherited some money from her ILs. I feel like i’m There now even though we make almost twice what my parents did.
I’m not upper class but considering how poor my family was when I was growing up and my parents still are I definitely feel that my middle class life is a huge upward class mobility. We have enough to live, we own a modest home, and we can generally afford to stay on top of paying our bills and debts if we cut out the frills. I never go hungry, and if we are lucky enough to have a child we will be able to afford to send it to daycare and it will never experience food insecurity. We don’t have much in the way of savings but we have good credit and the ability to put something on a card if needed, and barring disaster will be able to pay it off eventually.
I don’t have a fancy job or make a lot of money, but I work in a professional field and have earned some success in that field. In the nonprofit world in a HCOL area I’m one of the few people I know who is the higher earner in their household and therefore most of my colleagues are upper middle class or upper class (plenty who don’t need to work but do so because they find it fulfilling) and virtually no one grew up poor like I did. It’s still hard to feel like I fit in with my background but I’ve felt that way for almost 14 years since I went to a fancy-ass college on scholarship. You kind of get used to it after a while, but I doubt I’ll feel fully secure unless we get to a point where we have more in savings and to save more for retirement, and who knows if or when that will happen. We have no family safety net, so if we screw it up we’re on our own.