One other piece of data that I'm wondering if people are fully contexualizing in their replies is what constitutes poverty level. Not being sassy, just genuinely curious because when we do focus groups on Medicaid eligibility participants are always blown totally away by how low of an income is considered 100% federal poverty level. I'm guessing most people who don't deal with eligibility standards themselves (personally or through their job) don't fully grasp how incredibly low these are, especially given that they don't account for geographic area at all.
For 2018 it's as follows (more in chart): 1 $12,140 2 $16,460 3 $20,780 4 $25,100
One other piece of data that I'm wondering if people are fully contexualizing in their replies is what constitutes poverty level. Not being sassy, just genuinely curious because when we do focus groups on Medicaid eligibility participants are always blown totally away by how low of an income is considered 100% federal poverty level. I'm guessing most people who don't deal with eligibility standards themselves (personally or through their job) don't fully grasp how incredibly low these are, especially given that they don't account for geographic area at all.
For 2018 it's as follows (more in chart): 1 $12,140 2 $16,460 3 $20,780 4 $25,100
That really doesn’t change anything. You still look naive to how privileged you are at having the ability to own a home, let alone two. Yes, often it is cheaper to own than rent. If you can scrape together a down payment, qualify for a mortgage, and afford repairs as they arise. It will also likely bring you equity. Being able to do that on two properties in the NY metro area is absolutely not achievable to someone with a middle class income.
The second one is not in the NYC metro area (it's in a LCOL area of NE PA) but, yes, we were able to pull together a down payment for it.
I'm not naive at how much privilege I have. Upper class feels (yes, feels) wrong because I still have to pay my student loans each month and when we decided to upgrade our 1 car to an SUV, we took out a loan because a monthly payment was much more reasonable than emptying the bank account to pay for it on the spot. The discussion about income vs. wealth really speaks to me because DINKs who have the same HHI but paid off their mortgages have a much, much stronger financial position.
Really though, my H is the one that really bristles at the UMC label, let alone UC. I'm like, I wasn't allowed to have post-its as a 10 year old and look at me now. But, as I mentioned, he regularly deals with and socializes with true 1%ers. And constantly is looking at our finances. I think he pictures UC more like the people who are the top of the top.
I will finish paying off hndergrad (at a state school, with scholarships) a year before my oldest starts college. And there was no way I could have gotten my SUV, or my husband’s Jetta for that matter, without loans. And our mortgage is difficult. That still doesn’t mean we’re basically on the border of upper class. This is really tone dead.
Does everyone know the HHIs of their friends and families? I know nothing about nobody. Most of our friends live similar lifestyles to us (if not slightly more extravagant), but since that is not the actual indicator of SES, I’m not 100%. My H and I are upper based on that link, but I would imagine that our friends would put us in the middle class category if asked.
I know the gross income of a handful of friends, mostly because I've been with them through job searches. I also know the approximate income of my mom and brother, and that certain people in my life qualify for Medicaid and section 8. Also what some people pay for rent/mortgage, bit that's not really indicative of income except that they can afford it.
LOL that taking out a loan for an SUV so you don’t empty the bank account doesn’t feel upper class. You know that actual middle class people couldn’t pay for an SUV by emptying their bank accounts, right? Not unless said SUV is a 1996 Ford Explorer.
I have three cars in my driveway. Car one's battery won't hold a charge. Car two needs calipers and has two bald tires. It shakes so bad neither of us will drive it. I've been driving car number three for three days in a spare.
All of them are 8+old and I can't afford to fix any of them right now because my husband is out of work due to an emergency health issue. (He's fine now, going back to work this week.)
So yeah, I'm not hearing all this noise about how people don't feel UC or UMC because they don't want to empty a bank account.
I mean I know I said all that about my cars but I'm not actually poor by the way. I didn't take the quiz but I'm pretty damned sure I'm middle class.
I wasn't trying to start the age old Obama rich debate. Its just that my BFF lives on the Continent. She is limited while dating because of her high Socioeconomic class. First I thought that wasn't an issue we had here, then I thought again. Just wanted to know of others experiences, regarding who they hang out with.
Yes, this would be an issue here as well, socio economic and the patriarchy
Post by Mrs. ChanandlerBong on May 22, 2018 20:07:04 GMT -5
From what I can tell, the friends we see on a regular basis are where we're at.
H's family is similar to us. My family has outliers on either end. The UC outliers are on my dad's side.
My mom has had a huge ses jump in her life. My dad's family was never kind to her because they felt she was from the "wrong side of the tracks". She and my dad had good jobs and invested well. She has said more than once that she never expected the life she has.
Even in New York City a household income above 200,000 a year is in the top 10% of income earners. I really do not see how that can be anything other than upper class, no matter what other factors you’re attempting to consider.
I get that no one wants to claim they are wealthy but this idea that “everyone” is upper middle class except multi billionaires is really grating and doesn’t reflect the data.
I will never really understand this. Maybe it stems from growing up poor, but I am damn proud of where I am in life right now and how far I’ve come from that. I don’t run around bragging that I’m wealthy or being an AW about it, but it’s pretty ridiculous to try and deny it, either. I’m pretty happy to be able to say I’m UC.
Well, then, if we're just going by HHI and the Pew calculator I'll revise my answer to UC. And then yes, we do cross lines since we definitely have MC friends and family!
I do think that the original question of socioeconomic status is a more interesting one, because there are social differences that are also relevant to a general SES discussion.* That's why I didn't originally say we crossed lines, since most of our friends also work in similar professional types of fields.
I mean, I do think it would be interesting to hear from someone who came from a lower-income family and is now pulling in somewhere in the mid-six figures as the owner of a plumbing or auto repair business. I’d be fascinated to hear what aspects of upper-class society are still closed to him or her. Because I do believe the U.S, unlike other countries, is still a place where money talks. Maybe you won’t be accepted into every country club, but does that really matter?
Since it’s all about personal anecdotes, I want to respond to this. I grew up lower-income and now make about $300k on my own. I don’t own a blue collar business, but I can relate a bit to what you’re getting at here. Some of it might be my own imposter syndrome showing through, but no matter how much money I make, there are just certain things that will just never be in my comfort zone or I don’t know how to navigate. I haven’t exactly applied for membership, but I have to attend a lot of country club type events for work and every time, I stick out like a sore thumb. Like I don’t know enough about nice wine or golf, and I take vacations the wrong way. It’s like there’s a secret code for people who are actually wealthy and I will never actually get into the club because they all can just tell I used to be poor and could plummet back there at a moment’s notice since I don’t have family money as a safety net.
It feels like that when I need to network, too, it seems impossible to build a rich person’s network from scratch, IMO. That’s a disadvantage I will always have, I think. People always talk about how everything is about who you know, and it’s true. “Real” rich people always know a guy.
I mean, I do think it would be interesting to hear from someone who came from a lower-income family and is now pulling in somewhere in the mid-six figures as the owner of a plumbing or auto repair business. I’d be fascinated to hear what aspects of upper-class society are still closed to him or her. Because I do believe the U.S, unlike other countries, is still a place where money talks. Maybe you won’t be accepted into every country club, but does that really matter?
My SILs family is like this, except I think her grandparents were the one with the bootstraps. Her mom inherited a plumbing business and her dad owns a boiler repair business. As far as I can tell they want for nothing. SIL is the only one with a college degree, but she actually hasn't worked at all since she finished school (SAHM). They live in New Orleans and aren't in high society, but I don't think they want to be? I bet they couldn't get in with the most exclusive Garden District types though.
Anyway, I'm definitely upper class now due to high HHI, but we haven't had a chance to build much net worth yet. We are still relatively young though. I am also pretty happy about this because my H and are both grew up firmly middle class, and less that 5 years ago when I was unemployed, pregnant, and we were drowning in dept it didn't seem like we would ever get here. My friends are all pretty much upper class now, so the only SES lines I cross are with family. And even then they are pretty much all middle class.
Does everyone know the HHIs of their friends and families? I know nothing about nobody. Most of our friends live similar lifestyles to us (if not slightly more extravagant), but since that is not the actual indicator of SES, I’m not 100%. My H and I are upper based on that link, but I would imagine that our friends would put us in the middle class category if asked.
I see the same people several times a Month dropping x amount at various charity events. I assume from that, amount other things.
Yeah this is where these threads always go off the rails.
There is (almost) always going to be someone richer than you. It doesnt mean you arent upper class. Just because you aren't Bill Gates doesnt mean you arent upper class.
I remember V was a real stickler with this. She kept insisting that she was UMC or middle class because she wasnt "elite" like some other people in NYC. I was always like......okay then.
There was another one, Icap, who once said she wasn't rich even though their HHI income was $500k a year.
Pretty sure she is a regular on this board with a different name, LOL.
Post by underwaterrhymes on May 22, 2018 21:21:34 GMT -5
We are Upper class.
I mean, funds are tight because we are SUPER in cc debt due to poor fund management when both H and I went through periods of unemployment and underemployment. We are on a strict plan and digging our way out, which means no fun money, no dates, no shopping, etc. for the time being, but things should ease a bit in August after K starts Kindergarten and again in March 2019 when one of our loans is paid off. And in 5 years we should be cc debt free.
But even so, these are not problems unique to us and we are absolutely solidly Upper Class.
We have friends and family across the spectrum, but our closest friends probably fall into the Middle and Upper Classes due to proximity.
By income we're in the vast middle class. By lifestyle, interests, education level and type, family history, etc. we're UMC if we're using a system that includes it. Our closest relationships (close family, close friends) are all somewhat similarly situated financially. As a social worker I know a lot of people who earn/have less, both clients and coworkers who are the single or primary earner for their household (whereas I am the lower earner in mine).
The vast majority of my former colleagues in NYC have Master's degrees in social work (which often means high student loan debt) and live in NYC on salaries of anywhere from 40-55k. Some have spouses who earn more, but more of them are single parents or have partners with similar incomes. So GBCN rambling about what is middle class in NYC always makes me roll my eyes pretty damn hard.
Post by mainelyfoolish on May 22, 2018 21:47:21 GMT -5
I usually just lurk, but I was struck by some of the assertions that you can’t be middle class if x or y. I used the calculator that was posted and it tells me that I am in the middle income for my area (HHI just a smidge over 100k with a family of 4) and I can afford to vacation (we went to Disney World for a week last month) and I could theoretically go buy an SUV with cash tomorrow if I drained down my liquid savings (we own cars that are 8 and 6 years old, respectively, and we’re saving to be able to replace them when they wear out). DH and I do not come from family wealth; we’re in our mid-40s, we were fortunate to have had minimal student loans, DH is steadily employed, we don’t have childcare costs because I’m a SAHM, and we’re both savers by nature. Twenty years ago, I also had a middle class income but virtually no assets because I’d not yet had time to accumulate any. Does holding assets that were accumulated on a middle class income makes you no longer middle class?
I have two best friends. One of them is a single mom who makes a fourth of what my husband and I do combined. She doesn’t have a college degree. Her dad lives in a trailer home.
Our roots are similar. My dad and stepmom lived in trailer homes my whole life. My mom’s SES depending on her fluctuating marital status.
My mom and her significant other are solidly middle class.
Most of my family is blue collar and close or under the poverty line. But I have a hard time being close with them because they are like typical anti-immigration homophobic racist white people we discuss on this board.
But my closest friends except for the one bestie are those I made in college or shortly after. All still married except my second bestie who never married. All family incomes between 80k and 200k. Racial and sexual orientation diversity but not as diverse in SES.
Eta I do think there is mobility across SES in America, particularly if you are white. My grandfather was illiterate and at least 4 of his paternal ancestors are listed in US Census reports as rural farmers who did not read or write.
Education is the big differentiator and my family who have moved from living in trailer homes and working in mines to brick and mortar homes and white collar jobs all got college educations using scholarships.
Even in New York City a household income above 200,000 a year is in the top 10% of income earners. I really do not see how that can be anything other than upper class, no matter what other factors you’re attempting to consider.
I get that no one wants to claim they are wealthy but this idea that “everyone” is upper middle class except multi billionaires is really grating and doesn’t reflect the data.
I will never really understand this. Maybe it stems from growing up poor, but I am damn proud of where I am in life right now and how far I’ve come from that. I don’t run around bragging that I’m wealthy or being an AW about it, but it’s pretty ridiculous to try and deny it, either. I’m pretty happy to be able to say I’m UC.
I can think of two possible answers to this. One is for my H, who came from working class roots, and was very punk rock as a teenager. UMC people were the bad guys, and he can't really quite accept himself in that role. So he plays down his class status even though he worked hard and long to get to this place.
Two, when I worked in fundraising and philanthropy I encountered lots of people who just never interact with or consider people from lower incomes (unless those people are somehow serving the upper class person). The UC person often seems to look only upward for references about how life really is or can be. So to that person, they are living modestly by comparison to the way they want to live. They can't be upper class because UC status is for people much wealthier than they are. The many, many people who live below the UC person's means just don't seem to enter their minds or be part of the equation.
Post by downtoearth on May 22, 2018 23:09:00 GMT -5
Yes - mingle with middle to upper class to top 1%, but I don’t hang out with or have much, if any, family or friends that are lower.
That being said, I thought I was finally upper class, but the calculator says we have to make $80k more per year to be upper. I should have known that when I bounced a donation check a couple years ago. So embarrassing for your friends to ask for a donation and then...
I can see that earning potential and class would be a bigger deal when dating to me now than when I started datin DH. My friend just got divorced and his drive/earning potential was one of the reasons.
I usually just lurk, but I was struck by some of the assertions that you can’t be middle class if x or y. I used the calculator that was posted and it tells me that I am in the middle income for my area (HHI just a smidge over 100k with a family of 4) and I can afford to vacation (we went to Disney World for a week last month) and I could theoretically go buy an SUV with cash tomorrow if I drained down my liquid savings (we own cars that are 8 and 6 years old, respectively, and we’re saving to be able to replace them when they wear out). DH and I do not come from family wealth; we’re in our mid-40s, we were fortunate to have had minimal student loans, DH is steadily employed, we don’t have childcare costs because I’m a SAHM, and we’re both savers by nature. Twenty years ago, I also had a middle class income but virtually no assets because I’d not yet had time to accumulate any. Does holding assets that were accumulated on a middle class income makes you no longer middle class?
Absolutely. There’s more than one way to accumulate wealth in this country.
I mean, I do think it would be interesting to hear from someone who came from a lower-income family and is now pulling in somewhere in the mid-six figures as the owner of a plumbing or auto repair business. I’d be fascinated to hear what aspects of upper-class society are still closed to him or her. Because I do believe the U.S, unlike other countries, is still a place where money talks. Maybe you won’t be accepted into every country club, but does that really matter?
Since it’s all about personal anecdotes, I want to respond to this. I grew up lower-income and now make about $300k on my own. I don’t own a blue collar business, but I can relate a bit to what you’re getting at here. Some of it might be my own imposter syndrome showing through, but no matter how much money I make, there are just certain things that will just never be in my comfort zone or I don’t know how to navigate. I haven’t exactly applied for membership, but I have to attend a lot of country club type events for work and every time, I stick out like a sore thumb. Like I don’t know enough about nice wine or golf, and I take vacations the wrong way. It’s like there’s a secret code for people who are actually wealthy and I will never actually get into the club because they all can just tell I used to be poor and could plummet back there at a moment’s notice since I don’t have family money as a safety net.
It feels like that when I need to network, too, it seems impossible to build a rich person’s network from scratch, IMO. That’s a disadvantage I will always have, I think. People always talk about how everything is about who you know, and it’s true. “Real” rich people always know a guy.
I remember a conversation I had a while back with a friend of my XH’s who had done grad-level research on this. She said it takes three generations to completely move classes (upwards). We had stumbled on the subject because we were noticing how we adopted some of our parents’ behaviors even though there wasn’t a “need” for it. For example, she had a collection of old butter tubs that she used for food storage. Our parents were the ones who made the class transition so it would be our kids/grandkids who would actually feel comfortable there.
I do talk to people in other socioeconomic brackets, but I do not have friends there. This is not by my choice, I always speak to people and do what I can afford by way of socializing. I could make my living situation easier because my dad does have more money than he needs, but I do not subscribe to emotional blackmail. I would rather suffer through lack of income until it becomes dangerous instead of asking for that type of help from him. My current income is LC, but my education puts me in middle class. I played with numbers and found that I am about $5k from being middle class according to this calculator. Even my brother when he started making a decent salary, stopped talking to me.
I saw many responses saying that people talked to those in lower SES than themselves, but I have not seen much evidence of this happening in the real world. It is always a challenge to fit in when finding a new job because my SES experience does not match my level of education.