Compared to the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, it's disappointing. But if this had been the first one released, we'd all be jumping for joy. Also, the fact that there were no hospitalizations or deaths among those who received the vaccine is great! Don’t forget this is the one shot vaccine!
This is great! 85% against sever disease is fantastic. I’ll take it if offered!
From CNN: “ Johnson & Johnson's Covid-19 single-shot vaccine was shown to be 66% effective in preventing moderate and severe disease in a global Phase 3 trial, but 85% efficacy against severe disease, the company announced Friday.”
While I am hopeful that the J&J vaccine can get the EUA by end of February, I find myself wondering if we are going to win the race between vaccinations before the mutations are spread. Specifically the spread of the SA variant which J&J is less effective against.
While I am hopeful that the J&J vaccine can get the EUA by end of February, I find myself wondering if we are going to win the race between vaccinations before the mutations are spread. Specifically the spread of the SA variant which J&J is less effective against.
Same. I feel like we were so so close but not close enough for a vaccine to help. Viruses mutate. It's what they do. None of this is a surprise but it sure feels like a huge gut punch right now.
Wondering if anyone can help point me in the direction of resources. My parents, but especially my dad, recently were very ill with Covid, my dad is now in an acute care long term hospital to rehab. He asked me last night if I knew on average how much more antibodies the vaccine gets your body to make vs someone like him who had a severe life threatening case of Covid (and who received antibodies via IV prior to being hospitalized). I would assume that varies by person so I'm thinking no one can exactly say right now, but does it also vary by which type of vaccine one gets, i.e. the J&J one once available vs the Pfizer or Moderna versions? He said the Dr at the hospital just said it would be a lot more antibodies but didn't share any other info. My parents are trying to plan for when they could get vaccinated and by which version. Their Dr. told them they should wait a few months due to having Covid recently so they're wondering if J&J might be out by then as well to consider. Thanks!
Post by Velar Fricative on Jan 29, 2021 9:23:53 GMT -5
I was hoping for higher numbers of J&J but they never did study whether a second dose is needed (I believe) so it's possible it's more effective if there is a second dose. But still, I was hoping for better one-dose numbers.
BUT, it's promising that it prevents against severe disease and no one was hospitalized in the trials. That matters a lot too, especially since experts believe the virus will become endemic. So, while the hype made me think the numbers would be better, taken alone, this is still positive news. But, still concerning about the SA variant.
I was hoping for higher numbers of J&J but they never did study whether a second dose is needed (I believe) so it's possible it's more effective if there is a second dose. But still, I was hoping for better one-dose numbers.
BUT, it's promising that it prevents against severe disease and no one was hospitalized in the trials. That matters a lot too, especially since experts believe the virus will become endemic. So, while the hype made me think the numbers would be better, taken alone, this is still positive news. But, still concerning about the SA variant.
I was hoping for higher numbers of J&J but they never did study whether a second dose is needed (I believe) so it's possible it's more effective if there is a second dose. But still, I was hoping for better one-dose numbers.
While I am hopeful that the J&J vaccine can get the EUA by end of February, I find myself wondering if we are going to win the race between vaccinations before the mutations are spread. Specifically the spread of the SA variant which J&J is less effective against.
I am not an expert in any of this, but as a layperson it still seems like being able to vaccinate more people sooner, even at "only" 66% effective, will reduce mad spread and the chance for even more mutations.
(I put "only" in quotes because historically many vaccines aren't much better than that. Yes, it's disappointing compared to Pfizer and Moderna, but still better than many, including the flu vaccine.)
The recommended time period for the Pfizer vaccine is 21 days. All of the information I’m finding is about whether a time frame is too long. Is 19 days too early? DH is having trouble getting an appointment for his second dose. I have an appointment on his 19th day, but was able to get an earlier appointment through work. I thought about trying to have DH take my original appointment (same brand vaccine) but I’m not sure if 19 days is too close together.
We have been told 19 days is fine. There is a 4 day grace period.
From the CDC:
The mRNA COVID-19 vaccine series consist of two doses administered intramuscularly:
Pfizer-BioNTech (30 µg, 0.3 ml each): 3 weeks (21 days) apart Moderna (100 µg, 0.5 ml): 1 month (28 days) apart Persons should not be scheduled to receive the second dose earlier than recommended (i.e., 3 weeks [Pfizer-BioNTech] or 1 month [Moderna]). However, second doses administered within a grace period of 4 days earlier than the recommended date for the second dose are still considered valid. Doses inadvertently administered earlier than the grace period should not be repeated.
The second dose should be administered as close to the recommended interval as possible. However, if it is not feasible to adhere to the recommended interval, the second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines may be scheduled for administration up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose. There are currently limited data on efficacy of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered beyond this window. If the second dose is administered beyond these intervals, there is no need to restart the series.
While I am hopeful that the J&J vaccine can get the EUA by end of February, I find myself wondering if we are going to win the race between vaccinations before the mutations are spread. Specifically the spread of the SA variant which J&J is less effective against.
I am not an expert in any of this, but as a layperson it still seems like being able to vaccinate more people sooner, even at "only" 66% effective, will reduce mad spread and the chance for even more mutations.
(I put "only" in quotes because historically many vaccines aren't much better than that. Yes, it's disappointing compared to Pfizer and Moderna, but still better than many, including the flu vaccine.)
Yes, and the WaPo article points that out -- if this vaccine had come out first we'd have been jumping for joy instead of giving it the side eye for being <90%. They were hoping for 60%. It offers some protection against the variants, it was >50% effective even in South Africa, and mass vaccination will stem the number of additional mutations. If we don't get to herd immunity quickly, we'll not only have UK, South Africa, and Brazil variants, but variants named after all 50 states too
Initially I was bummed at the 66% number in the headline too, but it's still great. Transmission takes 2 people, and if both are vaccinated with a 66% effective vaccine, the virus's chances of spreading may be about 19% (.44 * .44). Yes please I will take that reduction, before we even start talking masks, social distancing, etc. This can get the job done.
The recommended time period for the Pfizer vaccine is 21 days. All of the information I’m finding is about whether a time frame is too long. Is 19 days too early? DH is having trouble getting an appointment for his second dose. I have an appointment on his 19th day, but was able to get an earlier appointment through work. I thought about trying to have DH take my original appointment (same brand vaccine) but I’m not sure if 19 days is too close together.
We have been told 19 days is fine. There is a 4 day grace period.
From the CDC: ...
I am chucking a bit that the recommendation is essentially "Give it within this window! But if you miss the window, don't waste another dose anyway."
I worry people will refuse it and insist on moderna/pfizer
I think this is going to be a situation where the haves get the moderna/pfizer and the have nots are "stuck" with J&J.
Realistically it would probably be best if all 3 vaccines were spread equally throughout the world. Diversify and all that.
It's definitely not ideal that the one that is most shelf stable is the least effective.
My mom and sisters first reaction was they'd wait for moderna/pfizer and I was all "just give me one of them. I don't care".
This inequity is basically guaranteed. Rich countries have already bought up the "best." Within those rich countries there are many examples of privilege increasing access.
Post by wanderingback on Jan 29, 2021 10:08:36 GMT -5
The news re: Johnson and Johnson is good. I think we have to be resigned to the fact that covid isn't going anywhere and I don't think the goal is realistic to not have anyone never ever get covid again. Per the reports in the news (I haven't looked to see if an actual detailed analysis of the results have been released) this vaccine is just as good as the others because no one that was vaccinated was hospitalized. That's wonderful and on par with the rest of the vaccines.
Obviously data is still being collected and like all things pandemic related things can change, but this is another science breakthrough.
The Washington Post article is behind a paywall, so I read this nbc news article.
"Still, "not a single person who got vaccinated, and had illness after four weeks, ended up in the hospital," Dr. Mathai Mammen, global head of pharmaceutical research and development at Johnson & Johnson, told NBC News. This "leads me to believe that this vaccine will stop this pandemic."
it's promising that it prevents against severe disease and no one was hospitalized in the trials. That matters a lot too, especially since experts believe the virus will become endemic.
I'm hanging onto this too. The results are kind of disappointing but this still seems very positive and needs to not be forgotten.
While I am hopeful that the J&J vaccine can get the EUA by end of February, I find myself wondering if we are going to win the race between vaccinations before the mutations are spread. Specifically the spread of the SA variant which J&J is less effective against.
I am not an expert in any of this, but as a layperson it still seems like being able to vaccinate more people sooner, even at "only" 66% effective, will reduce mad spread and the chance for even more mutations.
(I put "only" in quotes because historically many vaccines aren't much better than that. Yes, it's disappointing compared to Pfizer and Moderna, but still better than many, including the flu vaccine.)
Absolutely - but my concern is that the SA mutation is already here - and the ability to get the J&J vaccine out to people is already lagging behind that. So hence the race.
My pessimism comes from the fact that I do not have faith in people to do the right thing which is distance and wear masks to help reduce the spread of these new variants. We've been asking for that to happen for almost a year now and people are fatigued hearing that. They want to get on with their lives (and so do I). And I get that variants/mutations happen. And that it is normal. It just feels like the amazing vaccine race right now, who will get there first: COVID or the vaccine?
It’s 2:30 AM here and I just got home from getting my first dose of the Moderna vaccine.
Apparently a hospital system in our area has a freezer malfunction and 1,600 doses of vaccine thawed and had to be used by 5 AM this morning. They alerted our local university and their medical center mobilized pop-up vaccine clinics, open to the general public with emergency authorization from the state. I was telling the nurse who administered my dose that I found out about the clinic at 10:45 and I made a mad dash over to the college medical center (8 miles away). She said she ALSO found out about the clinic at 10:45. They recruited local EMTs to help administer the vaccine, had paperwork flow all great, it was just an INCREDIBLE effort by the medical center staff to mobilize an overnight clinic on short notice. I got my vaccine and my nurse had seven doses left to administer before she ran out. I feel so incredibly fortunate right now.
I woke up to this being all over our neighborhood Facebook page. So glad they were able to use up the doses and glad you were able to get one!
I feel like I need one day to mourn, then I’ll shut up about it.
Preventing severe cases and deaths is the #1 goal, agreed.
But reducing infections (and transmission) is also very important for the many of us who have people living with us who won’t be eligible for a vaccine until... 2022? Later?
Knowing we were so close to several viable options that had very high efficacy against some of the “older” strains, but we dropped the ball because we didn’t want to wear masks, or skip the holidays, or give up indoor dining, is a little depressing.
This is very good news. It will make a tremendous difference for many. It also might mean (depending on how quickly vaccine uptake is, how quickly the SA and other new variants continue to spread) many of us are looking at a 2021 that is very similar to 2020, and maybe even a 2022 and I just want to cry a little bit at that thought.
ETA I don’t want to end on such a negative note- so I’ll say it again. Very good news. My husband and I would be thrilled for him to get ANY vaccine at this point. He’d take it in his eyeball. I’m very grateful this showed good efficacy and developers are talking about modifications and boosters for new variants.
Wondering if anyone can help point me in the direction of resources. My parents, but especially my dad, recently were very ill with Covid, my dad is now in an acute care long term hospital to rehab. He asked me last night if I knew on average how much more antibodies the vaccine gets your body to make vs someone like him who had a severe life threatening case of Covid (and who received antibodies via IV prior to being hospitalized). I would assume that varies by person so I'm thinking no one can exactly say right now, but does it also vary by which type of vaccine one gets, i.e. the J&J one once available vs the Pfizer or Moderna versions? He said the Dr at the hospital just said it would be a lot more antibodies but didn't share any other info. My parents are trying to plan for when they could get vaccinated and by which version. Their Dr. told them they should wait a few months due to having Covid recently so they're wondering if J&J might be out by then as well to consider. Thanks!
IV antibodies are passive and don't persist in the body - it's like @maternal antibodies that provide some protection for a couple of months. They are eventually chewed up and the proteins are recycled. Their only relevance is that sometimes the immune response to the vaccines can be blunted if you have high levels of antibodies that remove the vaccine antigens from circulation before the rest of the immune system has a chance to respond. That's one reason @infants and puppies get a series of booster vaccinations.
I don't think they can predict which vaccine will work "best" (because of the individual variation and antibody levels are also just the easiest way to measure an immune response - there's a T-cell response that is usually only measured in a smaller number of subjects). They also don't know how long protection lasts from either natural infection or any of the vaccines. They can ask their doctor, but it's probably best to just get whatever vaccine is available when their doctor says it is time. Perfection is the enemy of the good.
People also think that the snapshot of antibody levels in the body after vaccination or an infection corresponds to the future immune response if you get exposed/infected, but that's not really accurate. The main advantage to vaccines is not the existing antibody levels (because those fluctuate over time and there is constant turnover), but the speed and amplitude of the memory immune response vs the primary immune response. That's why the most important outcomes of the vaccine trials are not the antibody responses, but the prevention of severe disease, hospitalization, and death.
(I'm not an infectious disease expert, just a B cell immunologist.)
Knowing we were so close to several viable options that had very high efficacy against some of the “older” strains, but we dropped the ball because we didn’t want to wear masks, or skip the holidays, or give up indoor dining, is a little depressing.
I share your frustration on this. I know we cannot undo the past, but I keep thinking back to how we could have tackled this so much better as a country in the spring, which could have helped raise efficacy rates for J&J. We'd still be dealing with outbreaks, but we wouldn't be up to 25 million cases and counting and overwhelmed hospitals and nearly half a million deaths. We keep talking about foreign variants as if a country with a quarter of the world's cases can't possibly have several of its own homegrown variants because we just didn't want to do what we had to do to tame this and not let it mutate as much as it has.
I think that so long as we're preventing hospitalizations and death with COVID vaccines we'll be OK. I mean, that's basically where we are with influenza. We know it's not a very effective vaccine, but if you get influenza after being vaccinated, you're much less likely to die/get really sick.
We'll be able to make new COVID vaccines to respond to mutations (just like with influenza). Sure, that likely means getting immunized every year, but that's OK, IMO, since it's just like flu.
My Dad who has been sick for a week and got a negative result just tested again and got a +. He is 70 and is scheduled to get Regeneron on Monday. I hope that he does okay over the weekend and that my stepmom doesn’t get it too. This is just awful.
One thing I want to understand, that I haven’t seen explained, is what is meant by “severe“ cases.
The articles say that the J&J vaccine was 85% effective in preventing severe cases, but we also know that no one in the trials who got the vaccine was hospitalized or died. (Which is huge!)
So for the 15% that had a “severe” case that did not result in hospitalization or death, what is meant by “severe”? An unusually high fever/extra terrible cough? Other weird symptoms? Long haul Covid symptoms that never went away? All of the above?
I do not have time at the moment to look at each protocol for each vaccine trial, but yes there is a definition for the protocol of severe for the trials. Google might be able to help if you google each individual trial and the protocols that they followed.
Post by wanderingback on Jan 29, 2021 11:43:09 GMT -5
Also, just as a FYI before I get back to work The monitoring of people and the definition of severe and all the protocols they follow for trials are pretty strict. I can only speak to the trial I was in, but if you got covid they monitor you very closely. I had one "scare" where I had mild symptoms for 2 days, so I called the study sight and went in for an illness visit.
They took multiple covid tests and then gave me monitoring equipment right away. I didn't end up having covid (the results came back in about 12 hours), but they told me to start wearing the monitoring equipment when I was home and I also had to start giving saliva samples. Then, outside of the monitoring equipment for people who had covid they did other illness visits to monitor them, etc over the next several weeks.
So, it's not like the trials were relying just on people to report their symptoms or anything. They collected objective data to know how people did when they got covid if they did or didn't have the vaccine.
"severe" for this virus has generally been hospitalization.
That’s my point though. It’s been reported that no one who got the actual J&J vaccine in the trials (as opposed to the placebo) was hospitalized. But 15% still had a severe case (within 28 days). So clearly, J&J’s definition of “severe” is much broader.
(I deleted right after I posted because wandering had a much more thorough and insightful response and i didn't want to muddy the waters with my conjecture.)