I hope Congressman Lynch is an anomaly. I wish they'd routinely done asymptomatic testing as part of the Pfizer vaccine trials. We really need more data on this.
I’m glad that asymptomatic infections weren’t a primary endpoint. Do you think doing routine asymptomatic testing would’ve changed anything?
I know moderna did test people for covid before their 2nd injection, but I don’t think that was included as a primary endpoint (I do believe there were less positives in the vaccine arm, but don’t have the exact info in front of me).
I don’t think they cut any corners with how they built the trials. I think all the testing and follow up and monitoring they did for their primary endpoints was definitely a feat, especially within a year.
This is also why those who have been vaccinated can’t yet quit masking, distancing, etc. That can’t happen until a lot more people have been vaccinated.
I hope these people’s friends and family all stop communicating with him so he and his wife can love the rest of their life lonely and isolated. What a dick.
I hope Congressman Lynch is an anomaly. I wish they'd routinely done asymptomatic testing as part of the Pfizer vaccine trials. We really need more data on this.
The blood tests at each timepoint of the Pfizer trial tested for antibodies from natural infections plus antibodies formed in response to the vaccine. Those data combined with the weekly "do you have symptoms" check would flag most asymptomatic infections. I'm not sure what other data they could feasibly collect.
Not to mention that there are always some people who are going to get infected despite vaccination, and we already know that there are asymptomatic infections. I'm assuming the data they collected during the CTs did not show a trend towards asymptomatic infection after vaccination. I'm not sure why this fear has continued to circulate that vaccination is creating a population with stealthy Covid infections.
ETA: The Moderna trial also checked for asymptomatic infection. I'm fairly certain this testing is built into all of the trials because it's an important aspect of the vaccine efficacy. The protocols are online and have everything laid out in excruciating detail.
"To evaluate the efficacy of mRNA-1273 to prevent asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection."
"Vaccine efficacy to prevent the first occurrence of SARS-CoV-2 infection in the absence of symptoms defining COVID-19 starting 14 days after the second IP dose. SARS-CoV-2 infection determined by seroconversion assessed by bAb levels against SARS-CoV-2 as measured by a ligand-binding assay specific to the SARS-CoV-2 nucleocapsid protein and with a negative NP swab sample for SARS-CoV-2 at Day 1 (Section 8.1.1)."
I hope Congressman Lynch is an anomaly. I wish they'd routinely done asymptomatic testing as part of the Pfizer vaccine trials. We really need more data on this.
I’m glad that asymptomatic infections weren’t a primary endpoint. Do you think doing routine asymptomatic testing would’ve changed anything?
Yes - I feel like it would have given us good information on the risks of asymptomatic cases and asymptomatic transmission post vaccination.
1) That could inform public policy on who should get vaccine priority. Those at risk for adverse outcomes v. those at risk for being vectors of transmission.
This continues to be an active controversy because we don't know. Some people are easy high priority choices - like ER/ ICU employees or the elderly in congregate living settings. But after that it's a decision - prioritize someone like my husband because he might be a vector or prioritize someone like my MIL because she's elderly and had cancer so she's at high risk of an adverse outcome. The prioritization put my husband first with a december vaccine and my MIL much further down - still unvaccinated. That prioritization only makes sense if you think the vaccines stop asymptomatic transmission, not just severe outcomes.
2) It also could inform public messaging for how to proceed as more and more people are fully vaccinated.
Knowing whether vaccinated are also carriers informs what level of precaution people should take after vaccination - not just public masking (which should continue for all sorts of reasons) but private choices. For example: If MIL needs in person assistance should it be my husband who is the most likely exposed but fully vaccinated or me who is less exposed but unvaccinated? Knowing his chance of being an assypmtomatic carrier makes a big difference.
I’m glad that asymptomatic infections weren’t a primary endpoint. Do you think doing routine asymptomatic testing would’ve changed anything?
Yes - I feel like it would have given us good information on the risks of asymptomatic cases and asymptomatic transmission post vaccination.
It wouldn't have given us data on this. There was no contact tracing done (I assume you'd need to get those people signed up for the trial as well if you are going to test contacts), at least not in my trial and not in any of the trials I read. So they did monitor blood work in all trials re: evidence of covid. However, even if we kept doing pcr testing on everyone daily in the trials, that wouldn't tell us anything about transmission post-vaccination.
But maybe I'm not understanding. How would we know asymptomatic transmission post vaccination by doing pcr testing on all trial participants for months?
Yes - I feel like it would have given us good information on the risks of asymptomatic cases and asymptomatic transmission post vaccination.
It wouldn't have given us data on this. There was no contact tracing done (I assume you'd need to get those people signed up for the trial as well if you are going to test contacts), at least not in my trial and not in any of the trials I read. So they did monitor blood work in all trials re: evidence of covid. However, even if we kept doing pcr testing on everyone daily in the trials, that wouldn't tell us anything about transmission post-vaccination.
But maybe I'm not understanding. How would we know asymptomatic transmission post vaccination by doing pcr testing on all trial participants for months?
My understanding is that if you have enough data points you can do Bayesian statistical techniques to answer that question. My guess is the trial didn't have enough data points to do it.
Post by discogranny on Jan 30, 2021 19:28:07 GMT -5
If you’ve had the vaccine, can we talk side effects? Also, which vaccine did you receive and did you have COVID previously?
I’m day after first dose of Moderna and had Covid in early March. I am surprised by the quick onset of side effects and that I’m still feeling as badly as I am today. Headache, joint pain and fatigue are the biggest side effects I’m having but they are persistent and Advil isn’t doing much for relief.
Others in my circle who’ve received the Moderna vaccine have sailed through without side effects, so I’m curious if previously having Covid somehow plays into this. Google is failing me on this, so I’m here seeking some good old anecdotal data from CEP, haha.
Post by Velar Fricative on Jan 30, 2021 19:42:49 GMT -5
discogranny, DH, several family members and I have had one dose of Pfizer. No one reported anything worse than a sore arm (which I had too). Our second doses are happening within the next week and so we will see how they go. Friends of ours in healthcare who’ve gotten second doses reporting not feeling good anywhere from 24 to 48 hours after their second dose (also all Pfizer). My mom is the only one in this group who had covid before but she felt fine after her one dose.
DH and I are taking ours 24 hours apart (him first) so I really hope he’s better by the time I get mine.
Post by penguingrrl on Jan 30, 2021 19:57:25 GMT -5
discogranny I had my first shot of moderna this past Monday. I was a bit tired all week and my arm hurt like whoa. Far worse than a tetanus shot (which I’ve always considered the gold standard for making your arm hurt). That lasted 3ish days, and went away. I have not had Covid.
It wouldn't have given us data on this. There was no contact tracing done (I assume you'd need to get those people signed up for the trial as well if you are going to test contacts), at least not in my trial and not in any of the trials I read. So they did monitor blood work in all trials re: evidence of covid. However, even if we kept doing pcr testing on everyone daily in the trials, that wouldn't tell us anything about transmission post-vaccination.
But maybe I'm not understanding. How would we know asymptomatic transmission post vaccination by doing pcr testing on all trial participants for months?
My understanding is that if you have enough data points you can do Bayesian statistical techniques to answer that question. My guess is the trial didn't have enough data points to do it.
That's true. I'm certainly not a researcher, or expert on how they designed the trials, but I don't think they designed the trials for inference, they designed them for objective data.
I think there's still a lot of information we don't know about asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic and viral load, etc, therefore it'd be very hard to get this data from the trials based on what their primary endpoints were.
www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4851 "Earlier estimates that 80% of infections are asymptomatic were too high and have since been revised down to between 17% and 20% of people with infections.12 Studies estimating this proportion are limited by heterogeneity in case definitions, incomplete symptom assessment, and inadequate retrospective and prospective follow-up of symptoms, however.3 Around 49% of people initially defined as asymptomatic go on to develop symptoms."
Post by pinkplasticdoll on Jan 30, 2021 20:24:37 GMT -5
I was able to receive the vaccine because I have a cardiac condition and I fall into 1b category and was extremely happy but knew I was being judged, the people that throw judgement at those getting the vaccine because "they work at home and don't really go out" are what made me hesitant to get it. Yes I look like I am a healthy person but if we're to contract covid it could be life ending for me in the worst scenario or best scenario I wouldn't be able to care for my family properly for many weeks-months so please don't judge people who to you look healthy because you don't know their story.
If you’ve had the vaccine, can we talk side effects? Also, which vaccine did you receive and did you have COVID previously?
I’m day after first dose of Moderna and had Covid in early March. I am surprised by the quick onset of side effects and that I’m still feeling as badly as I am today. Headache, joint pain and fatigue are the biggest side effects I’m having but they are persistent and Advil isn’t doing much for relief.
Others in my circle who’ve received the Moderna vaccine have sailed through without side effects, so I’m curious if previously having Covid somehow plays into this. Google is failing me on this, so I’m here seeking some good old anecdotal data from CEP, haha.
I had first dose Moderna, very sore arm for 3ish days, I have not had covid. Everyone I know that had covid and got vaccinated had a significant reaction to the first dose of both Pfizer and Moderna.
Yes - I feel like it would have given us good information on the risks of asymptomatic cases and asymptomatic transmission post vaccination.
It wouldn't have given us data on this. There was no contact tracing done (I assume you'd need to get those people signed up for the trial as well if you are going to test contacts), at least not in my trial and not in any of the trials I read. So they did monitor blood work in all trials re: evidence of covid. However, even if we kept doing pcr testing on everyone daily in the trials, that wouldn't tell us anything about transmission post-vaccination.
But maybe I'm not understanding. How would we know asymptomatic transmission post vaccination by doing pcr testing on all trial participants for months?
I don’t think it has to be months and months of PCR testing. A single PCR test a month out from dose 2 for all participants should show if the vaccinated have a lower rate of asymptomatic cases than controls, and by what percentage. That isn’t the whole picture but would be valuable information. If there is a big drop in asymptomatic cases, the risk of asymptomatic spread should also drop. If there isn’t a decrease in asymptomatic cases, then yes, you would need tracing to determine if there is any difference in asymptomatic spread. But either way it’s useful information for public health planning purposes.
What in the actual fuck? I just cannot imagine being such a self-righteous, insufferable asshole. Like, find a hobby or something. There are so many worthy causes in the world, I cannot fathom spending one second trying to stop people from getting vaccines in a pandemic.
So many of you gave me advice and info last week (or hell, maybe this week, what is time?) about getting my family in Texas in for vaccines. Just wanted to say THANK YOU again and update that my 80+ grandparents got their first dose today and only had to go one county over. It was about an hour round-trip. She said they only waited about five minutes in a line, then 15 minutes after the shot, and everyone was “real sweet.”
For others trying to get vaccinated in rural-ish Texas, they called last week to get on the list for two neighboring counties and got a call yesterday to make an appointment for today. Their county doesn’t have supply/availability yet. They are about an hour or so outside of DFW, and going into one of the big vaccination events in the large cities just wouldn’t have worked for them because my grandfather uses a walker and/or a wheelchair. It’s seems for the more rural locations, you just have to call until you get ahold of someone to get on a list and they call you back.
If you’ve had the vaccine, can we talk side effects? Also, which vaccine did you receive and did you have COVID previously?
I’m day after first dose of Moderna and had Covid in early March. I am surprised by the quick onset of side effects and that I’m still feeling as badly as I am today. Headache, joint pain and fatigue are the biggest side effects I’m having but they are persistent and Advil isn’t doing much for relief.
Others in my circle who’ve received the Moderna vaccine have sailed through without side effects, so I’m curious if previously having Covid somehow plays into this. Google is failing me on this, so I’m here seeking some good old anecdotal data from CEP, haha.
I had first dose Moderna, very sore arm for 3ish days, I have not had covid. Everyone I know that had covid and got vaccinated had a significant reaction to the first dose of both Pfizer and Moderna.
This is interesting. I would say my arm is barely sore, but I was feeling poorly enough a few hours after getting the vaccine that I had to stop working (from home), take a three hour afternoon nap, and still went to bed at 8:30. I’ve been feverish off and on today in addition to previously mentioned symptoms.
In comparison to when I had Covid, this isn’t as bad - I would say I feel like a quasi-flu. I am definitely on the more severe reaction side than anyone I know personally so far but I’m hoping the second dose is easier. Proactively, I might plan to schedule things lightly for the week I should get it just in case I’m exhausted again.
So many of you gave me advice and info last week (or hell, maybe this week, what is time?) about getting my family in Texas in for vaccines. Just wanted to say THANK YOU again and update that my 80+ grandparents got their first dose today and only had to go one county over. It was about an hour round-trip. She said they only waited about five minutes in a line, then 15 minutes after the shot, and everyone was “real sweet.”
For others trying to get vaccinated in rural-ish Texas, they called last week to get on the list for two neighboring counties and got a call yesterday to make an appointment for today. Their county doesn’t have supply/availability yet. They are about an hour or so outside of DFW, and going into one of the big vaccination events in the large cities just wouldn’t have worked for them because my grandfather uses a walker and/or a wheelchair. It’s seems for the more rural locations, you just have to call until you get ahold of someone to get on a list and they call you back.
I’m in Tarrant County and have been trying to get my grandparents in West Texas to let me sign them up for our list but they are being stubborn and think their tiny town doctor is going to vaccinate them “real soon.” 🤷🏼♀️
If you’ve had the vaccine, can we talk side effects? Also, which vaccine did you receive and did you have COVID previously?
I’m day after first dose of Moderna and had Covid in early March. I am surprised by the quick onset of side effects and that I’m still feeling as badly as I am today. Headache, joint pain and fatigue are the biggest side effects I’m having but they are persistent and Advil isn’t doing much for relief.
Others in my circle who’ve received the Moderna vaccine have sailed through without side effects, so I’m curious if previously having Covid somehow plays into this. Google is failing me on this, so I’m here seeking some good old anecdotal data from CEP, haha.
I have the same time experience as you. I got the first dose of moderna on Wednesday. I have felt mildly crappy since then (chills, joint pain, headache). And I am so tired!! As far as I know, I have not had Covid (and have had no antibodies on two tests while donating blood over the last six months).
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
Post by JayhawkGirl on Jan 30, 2021 21:45:50 GMT -5
discogranny, two nurse friends who had covid felt pretty terrible after their first vax doses. One was home from work 2 days. The other I don't know specifics beyond she is about to get her second dose and posted hoping it goes better and thanking friends who helped with her kids after the first dose when she had a tough couple of days.
So many of you gave me advice and info last week (or hell, maybe this week, what is time?) about getting my family in Texas in for vaccines. Just wanted to say THANK YOU again and update that my 80+ grandparents got their first dose today and only had to go one county over. It was about an hour round-trip. She said they only waited about five minutes in a line, then 15 minutes after the shot, and everyone was “real sweet.”
For others trying to get vaccinated in rural-ish Texas, they called last week to get on the list for two neighboring counties and got a call yesterday to make an appointment for today. Their county doesn’t have supply/availability yet. They are about an hour or so outside of DFW, and going into one of the big vaccination events in the large cities just wouldn’t have worked for them because my grandfather uses a walker and/or a wheelchair. It’s seems for the more rural locations, you just have to call until you get ahold of someone to get on a list and they call you back.
I am happy your grandparents were able to get their vaccinations! There is advice around here to get on all the vaccination lists in the surrounding areas, you can do many of them online. Also, the mass vaccination sites have accomodations for individuals that need assistance with a walker or wheelchair, I have friends who are working these sites and have put that word out.
So many of you gave me advice and info last week (or hell, maybe this week, what is time?) about getting my family in Texas in for vaccines. Just wanted to say THANK YOU again and update that my 80+ grandparents got their first dose today and only had to go one county over. It was about an hour round-trip. She said they only waited about five minutes in a line, then 15 minutes after the shot, and everyone was “real sweet.”
For others trying to get vaccinated in rural-ish Texas, they called last week to get on the list for two neighboring counties and got a call yesterday to make an appointment for today. Their county doesn’t have supply/availability yet. They are about an hour or so outside of DFW, and going into one of the big vaccination events in the large cities just wouldn’t have worked for them because my grandfather uses a walker and/or a wheelchair. It’s seems for the more rural locations, you just have to call until you get ahold of someone to get on a list and they call you back.
I’m in Tarrant County and have been trying to get my grandparents in West Texas to let me sign them up for our list but they are being stubborn and think their tiny town doctor is going to vaccinate them “real soon.” 🤷🏼♀️
uhhhhh bring them to DFW! I wonder how quickly the small town doctors will get the vaccine vs the drug store or if the drug stores will even provide the vaccine.
It wouldn't have given us data on this. There was no contact tracing done (I assume you'd need to get those people signed up for the trial as well if you are going to test contacts), at least not in my trial and not in any of the trials I read. So they did monitor blood work in all trials re: evidence of covid. However, even if we kept doing pcr testing on everyone daily in the trials, that wouldn't tell us anything about transmission post-vaccination.
But maybe I'm not understanding. How would we know asymptomatic transmission post vaccination by doing pcr testing on all trial participants for months?
I don’t think it has to be months and months of PCR testing. A single PCR test a month out from dose 2 for all participants should show if the vaccinated have a lower rate of asymptomatic cases than controls, and by what percentage. That isn’t the whole picture but would be valuable information. If there is a big drop in asymptomatic cases, the risk of asymptomatic spread should also drop. If there isn’t a decrease in asymptomatic cases, then yes, you would need tracing to determine if there is any difference in asymptomatic spread. But either way it’s useful information for public health planning purposes.
Why would a PCR test at one time point (which would only capture active/very recent infection) yield more data about asymptomatic infections vs. the antibody titers performed at every time point that reveal all infections that occur between each time point? A positive titer for the N protein plus no symptoms reported in the diary = asymptomatic infection.
So many of you gave me advice and info last week (or hell, maybe this week, what is time?) about getting my family in Texas in for vaccines. Just wanted to say THANK YOU again and update that my 80+ grandparents got their first dose today and only had to go one county over. It was about an hour round-trip. She said they only waited about five minutes in a line, then 15 minutes after the shot, and everyone was “real sweet.”
For others trying to get vaccinated in rural-ish Texas, they called last week to get on the list for two neighboring counties and got a call yesterday to make an appointment for today. Their county doesn’t have supply/availability yet. They are about an hour or so outside of DFW, and going into one of the big vaccination events in the large cities just wouldn’t have worked for them because my grandfather uses a walker and/or a wheelchair. It’s seems for the more rural locations, you just have to call until you get ahold of someone to get on a list and they call you back.
I’m in Tarrant County and have been trying to get my grandparents in West Texas to let me sign them up for our list but they are being stubborn and think their tiny town doctor is going to vaccinate them “real soon.” 🤷🏼♀️
Ugh. It’s so hard. I know West Texas is vast, but my grandparents got vaccinated in Parker county in Weatherford and they live in Hood.
I hope Congressman Lynch is an anomaly. I wish they'd routinely done asymptomatic testing as part of the Pfizer vaccine trials. We really need more data on this.
The blood tests at each timepoint of the Pfizer trial tested for antibodies from natural infections plus antibodies formed in response to the vaccine. Those data combined with the weekly "do you have symptoms" check would flag most asymptomatic infections. I'm not sure what other data they could feasibly collect.
Not to mention that there are always some people who are going to get infected despite vaccination, and we already know that there are asymptomatic infections. I'm assuming the data they collected during the CTs did not show a trend towards asymptomatic infection after vaccination. I'm not sure why this fear has continued to circulate that vaccination is creating a population with stealthy Covid infections.
ETA: The Moderna trial also checked for asymptomatic infection. I'm fairly certain this testing is built into all of the trials because it's an important aspect of the vaccine efficacy. The protocols are online and have everything laid out in excruciating detail.
"To evaluate the efficacy of mRNA-1273 to prevent asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection."
"Vaccine efficacy to prevent the first occurrence of SARS-CoV-2 infection in the absence of symptoms defining COVID-19 starting 14 days after the second IP dose. SARS-CoV-2 infection determined by seroconversion assessed by bAb levels against SARS-CoV-2 as measured by a ligand-binding assay specific to the SARS-CoV-2 nucleocapsid protein and with a negative NP swab sample for SARS-CoV-2 at Day 1 (Section 8.1.1)."
my phone jumped passed this the first time. Thank you.
Post by theoriginalbean on Jan 31, 2021 0:22:12 GMT -5
I got my first dose of pfizer yesterday and my arm hurts a lot, like I can't raise it above shoulder level. I didn't have covid, that I know of, but my husband was a "presumed positive," so it's possible I was asymptomatic.
Post by RoxMonster on Jan 31, 2021 10:32:42 GMT -5
My mom got her second dose of Pfizer Thursday morning. She had pretty bad back pain later that day but no other side effects since. She went to work the following day and was out shoveling a bunch of snow yesterday!
She also was able to get my grandpa a vaccine appointment this week through the VA. She's working on getting my grandma one through the HD.
I am crossing my fingers there will be enough doses for all of us at our district clinic in a few weeks. I'm also going to start trying to get appointments through Walgreen's at midnight every night when they supposedly open up a new day of slots.