turnaround times aren't even always that reliable. it sounds extremely disruptive.
Which, I believe, is the entire point.
i don't mean to the individual for their inconvenience. im thinking of someone managing a team of 10 and 6 are constantly out on Mondays bc of slow turnaround times for tests. how does work get done? how is that fair to those who are vaccinated that others are constantly taking last-minute PTO?
i just think people who are strongly against vaccinated and/or are medically exempt from being vaccinated are going to be fine with three-day weekends for a while. and there is still a worker shortage so i'm just trying to think through how this plays out in real life for companies. idk. not a popular thought process but i'm finding it interesting to think through.
Post by wanderingback on Sept 10, 2021 11:04:11 GMT -5
Most of my patients are not vaccinated. They've been taking the wait and see approach essentially. They still mask, and get tested regularly as well. Most of them have said that being "forced" to get vaccinated now is what they'll do and they're not really fighting it if their job requires it or now that restaurants, indoor entertainment, etc requires it. I do think the true "vaccines are going to kill you" crowd is small, but mighty unfortunately. Most of the Black people that I know are absolutely not like that and are taking the pandemic seriously even though they're not vaccinated. Hopefully these vaccine mandates will just continue to help keep everyone safe, especially those who are more at risk of getting severely ill or dying from covid.
i am admittedly curious about the logistics for employers.
are they expected to have someone doing rapids on site? what about remote workers? what about remote workers who travel?
three are just... so many variables here. as an HR lady this is instantly where my mind goes. the nonsense that ensued when my company began offering a vaccine incentive were wild. i cannot imagine how this is going to play out for employers at large.
We are mostly remote workers who travel. We have to order the rapid tests and then expense them. I have 6 tests in my cupboard right now just in case I have to go into the office.
kath16, I also manage people. My organization is not currently covered under this mandate. So my plan is really to wait a bit longer before our org mandates vaccines.
I really don't want to deal with the testing portion of it. I think as we get farther down the road companies and government are going to tire of the testing part and just say get vaccinated or be fired. I only have 2 people not vaccinated and 1 might have a medical exemption, so if the other one doesn't want to get vaccinated then she can quit/ retire, and I will replace with someone who is vaccinated (in the job posting it will have to state vaccinated). Hiring has been difficult around here, but we are eventually able to find people, so hopefully that trend continues.
i don't mean to the individual for their inconvenience. im thinking of someone managing a team of 10 and 6 are constantly out on Mondays bc of slow turnaround times for tests. how does work get done? how is that fair to those who are vaccinated that others are constantly taking last-minute PTO?
i just think people who are strongly against vaccinated and/or are medically exempt from being vaccinated are going to be fine with three-day weekends for a while. and there is still a worker shortage so i'm just trying to think through how this plays out in real life for companies. idk. not a popular thought process but i'm finding it interesting to think through.
I'm going to imagine that those people who refuse to be vaccinated or can't perform their duties are going to be fired. Much like employees that don't comply with other OSHA standards are fired.
ETA: Under the OSHA rule, it becomes a health and safety standard, not a personal/civil liberty issue.
i am admittedly curious about the logistics for employers.
are they expected to have someone doing rapids on site? what about remote workers? what about remote workers who travel?
three are just... so many variables here. as an HR lady this is instantly where my mind goes. the nonsense that ensued when my company began offering a vaccine incentive were wild. i cannot imagine how this is going to play out for employers at large.
We are mostly remote workers who travel. We have to order the rapid tests and then expense them. I have 6 tests in my cupboard right now just in case I have to go into the office.
interesting. i know some places/schools/employers won't accept the at home but maybe that will change. they seem to have come a long way in a short amount of time!
We are mostly remote workers who travel. We have to order the rapid tests and then expense them. I have 6 tests in my cupboard right now just in case I have to go into the office.
interesting. i know some places/schools/employers won't accept the at home but maybe that will change. they seem to have come a long way in a short amount of time!
We have to do it in front of a proctor online. I had to do my first one on Wednesday, actually. It then gets uploaded into our system from the proctor site.
interesting. i know some places/schools/employers won't accept the at home but maybe that will change. they seem to have come a long way in a short amount of time!
We have to do it in front of a proctor online. I had to do my first one on Wednesday, actually. It then gets uploaded into our system from the proctor site.
In IL, the governor had mandated all teachers/school staff to get vaccinated or test weekly, and my district (and I think all?) is not accepting home tests for that. I'm assuming all because my district initially said yes for home tests and then changed it and said, oh wait, no we can't accept them.
Home tests are presumably super easy to fake, so I'd really hope nobody requiring tests is accepting them!
Post by pixy0stix on Sept 10, 2021 11:15:33 GMT -5
I think people who primarily work in offices are struggling with how hardball this is?
The vaccine is being treated like a hardhat or other Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) on an active construction site. OSHA can and does absolutely ream companies who do not follow the rules. You don't wear a hardhat on a construction site, your employer can fire you on the spot. There's no wiggle room. There's no, "But the hardhat isn't convenient, we have to find them something else to do." Either you get vaccinated, or you get tested, everything else is up to the company, but again I bet they fire those people.
ETA: Also, if you willfully ignore safety standards, you cannot collect unemployment.
Agreed, because according to OSHA, right now I have to treat those unvaccinated people differently. Unvaccinated people have to be masked and socially distanced. I did not have to do that with my vaccinated staff. Now, our Governor has set up a new mask mandate so everyone is masked again inside.
But eventually that will go away again, and my vaccinated folk can be treated normally and my unvaccinated staff have to be masked and socially distant and tested. I think companies will eventually tire of all the accommodations and say vaccinate or out.
i am admittedly curious about the logistics for employers.
are they expected to have someone doing rapids on site? what about remote workers? what about remote workers who travel?
three are just... so many variables here. as an HR lady this is instantly where my mind goes. the nonsense that ensued when my company began offering a vaccine incentive were wild. i cannot imagine how this is going to play out for employers at large.
This is why I'm hoping my company will be pushing remote work more so they don't have to deal with the logistics too much.
i don't mean to the individual for their inconvenience. im thinking of someone managing a team of 10 and 6 are constantly out on Mondays bc of slow turnaround times for tests. how does work get done? how is that fair to those who are vaccinated that others are constantly taking last-minute PTO?
i just think people who are strongly against vaccinated and/or are medically exempt from being vaccinated are going to be fine with three-day weekends for a while. and there is still a worker shortage so i'm just trying to think through how this plays out in real life for companies. idk. not a popular thought process but i'm finding it interesting to think through.
At my workplace, you'd be taking "unplanned PTO" in that case. It only takes maybe 7 unplanned PTO's before you get fired. Usually people get wayyyyyyyy more grace than that but they have the rule so that if someone is an attendance problem they can terminate quickly. I imagine it will be strictly enforced for covid testing though. And you will also just run out of PTO pretty fast.
I think people who primarily work in offices are struggling with how hardball this is?
The vaccine is being treated like a hardhat or other Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) on an active construction site. OSHA can and does absolutely ream companies who do not follow the rules. You don't wear a hardhat on a construction site, your employer can fire you on the spot. There's no wiggle room. There's no, "But the hardhat isn't convenient, we have to find them something else to do." Either you get vaccinated, or you get tested, everything else is up to the company, but again I bet they fire those people.
ETA: Also, if you willfully ignore safety standards, you cannot collect unemployment.
i get it.
i'm just also trying to think through the labor shortage and how that will impact all this as well just bc recruitment (and HR in general, but specifically recruitment) is a major area of interest to me.
I think people who primarily work in offices are struggling with how hardball this is?
The vaccine is being treated like a hardhat or other Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) on an active construction site. OSHA can and does absolutely ream companies who do not follow the rules. You don't wear a hardhat on a construction site, your employer can fire you on the spot. There's no wiggle room. There's no, "But the hardhat isn't convenient, we have to find them something else to do." Either you get vaccinated, or you get tested, everything else is up to the company, but again I bet they fire those people.
ETA: Also, if you willfully ignore safety standards, you cannot collect unemployment.
i get it.
i'm just also trying to think through the labor shortage and how that will impact all this as well just bc recruitment (and HR in general, but specifically recruitment) is a major area of interest to me.
These people will have nowhere else to go. Since it's OSHA, it impacts everything. There are not enough small businesses out there to accommodate them.
Does anyone else feel nervous energy about what people are going to do now that the mandate is here? Combined with the gathering of nuts on 9/18 in DC, I'm super worried something is going to happen.
yes, I had a family member freak out on Instagram last night & was furiously reposting all the Faux news outrage and anti-vaxer and dictator talking points.
I did like the Axios take on it this morning & I think most people will be fine & a few loud people will freak out and then move on...
Several Republican governors say they'll go to court to try to stop the mandate for federal employees, contractors and private employers with 100+ workers (enforced by OSHA).
South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem told Sean Hannity on Fox News: "In South Dakota, we’re going to be free. ... We will take action. My legal team is already working."
A top House Republican aide tells me: "Every Republican in the country — especially those running to the right in primaries — is salivating over Joe Biden [igniting] the vax debate."
"Republicans think that he's made even pro-vax conservatives into 'anti-vax mandate' Americans."
An official close to Biden tells me the West Wing "knew there would be strong backlash. But unless someone took this on, we'd be in a pandemic forever."
"Biden beat Trump by promising strong action based on science. He can't let Abbott/DeSantis block tough action."
Invoking a civil-rights parallel, the official added: "Basically Biden is staring down Southern governors (and some Northern allies). ... Is America divided? Yes. But Biden is uniting the 75% vs. the 25% that is in opposition."
The official's bottom line: "That is unity politics in a divided nation — unifying the overwhelming majority threatened by an unruly minority."
I care A LOT if this costs Democrats the White House in 2024, but... I care more about ending the pandemic.
Post by ruthie7532 on Sept 10, 2021 11:53:23 GMT -5
The CDC recently published in the MMWR a study of the accuracy of the Binax NOW home test (which is exactly the same antigen test my husband’s urgent care uses when antigen testing is indicated).
Here is the relevant table. Specificity in both symptomatic and asymptomatic people was nearly 100%, so a false positive is highly unlikely. Sensitivity wasn’t as high (so false negatives more likely) especially in asymptomatic people, but both negative and positive predictive values were very high. I don’t quite understand how you can go from a low sensitivity to a high negative predictive value, though I do know it has something to do with the pre-test probability and the amount of transmission in the community. I don’t know how vaccination affects that, if at all. statgirl or others?
Anyway, the conclusion was that it could be a very useful tool for screening, especially serially in the school or workplace setting. They also have some guidelines for when a PCR would be necessary for confirmation. It would not surprise me if OSHA recommends this for weekly screening.
I think people who primarily work in offices are struggling with how hardball this is?
The vaccine is being treated like a hardhat or other Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) on an active construction site. OSHA can and does absolutely ream companies who do not follow the rules. You don't wear a hardhat on a construction site, your employer can fire you on the spot. There's no wiggle room. There's no, "But the hardhat isn't convenient, we have to find them something else to do." Either you get vaccinated, or you get tested, everything else is up to the company, but again I bet they fire those people.
ETA: Also, if you willfully ignore safety standards, you cannot collect unemployment.
My dad (who identifies as a Republican, don't get me started) does this for a living, essentially. Enforces OSHA compliance and trains his clients on it. He works for an insurance company, not the government, but you'd best believe his company does everything possible to not have to pay out workers comp by keeping job sites as safe as possible.
Anyway, back to being a Republican - he's been fully vaccinated since early April, his fiancée has been fully vaccinated since like February since she works in a group home, and they both think people refusing vaccines are absolutely nuts. How does he normally reconcile his job in big Government with his political beliefs? No idea. But I feel he will have no problem with OSHA mandating this.
(My mom, OTOH, was originally vaccine-skeptical, but got J&J a few months ago.)
i don't mean to the individual for their inconvenience. im thinking of someone managing a team of 10 and 6 are constantly out on Mondays bc of slow turnaround times for tests. how does work get done? how is that fair to those who are vaccinated that others are constantly taking last-minute PTO?
i just think people who are strongly against vaccinated and/or are medically exempt from being vaccinated are going to be fine with three-day weekends for a while. and there is still a worker shortage so i'm just trying to think through how this plays out in real life for companies. idk. not a popular thought process but i'm finding it interesting to think through.
At my employer (a mid size university so around 4k employees, plus 20k+ students), we have been doing on-site rapid testing. Since our vaccine mandate went into effect, anyone who was unvaccinated (either because they ignored the mandate or had an exemption) had to do twice weekly onsite rapid testing. If you get a positive from a rapid test, you are sent to get a PCR and will quarantine at home until then. We are not allowing telework for unvaccinated folks so I think you use your PTO or are unpaid for the time away from work. We have been paying for the testing and have a whole testing site set up, which was set up last year even before vaccinations were available.
We are actually just about to transition into not allowing anyone who ignored the mandate to keep working or learning here (as of 1 hour ago!), but I believe we'll keep the above system for those who are exempt from the vaccine. I think this is around 100 employees and maybe a few hundred students out of over 24k total people, so it's not nothing but it's a much smaller number than it could be. Obviously rapid tests are not 100% effective, but doing a PCR test twice weekly is not realistic so it's better than nothing.
Obviously this would not work for small employers but I imagine many larger employers already have onsite testing capabilities? Maybe not?
If some knucklehead still won't get the shot and works for a company of 100+ employees, who pays for his tests? I'm assuming the companies do, but I hope they can pass that onto the asshats refusing the vaccine.
My company had announced a plan pretty similar to Biden's a few days ago.
Any cost for tests is the employee's responsibility. At home tests are not allowed.
They haven't put out the details in terms of tests have to be submitted by x time of day.
If you refuse to get tested or vaccinated it's considered an unexcused absence. 5 of those and you're fired.
I think where the company is going to run into a problem will be replacing anyone who is fired or quits, because they've already been struggling to hire people because they refuse to pay as much as other companies and are back to being stubborn about wfh flexibility. Maybe a big loss in employees will finally make them step up.
I keep thinking about all of these governors who are talking a big game. But every single one of them secretly want people to get vaccinated so they can move on. They want economies to keep chugging along. Even holding out until the 2022 elections with all of this suffering won't be worth it. They just want to fundraise off of Biden being the big bad govt guy.
I think they will talk a big talk. I will be interested to see how much effort is actually put into legal battles. Like lawsuits will happen. I just question the passion behind it.
Same for corporations/businesses. Some might talk a big game, but they also want to make money. The quickest way to make money is to get COVID under control for good.
The CDC recently published in the MMWR a study of the accuracy of the Binax NOW home test (which is exactly the same antigen test my husband’s urgent care uses when antigen testing is indicated).
Here is the relevant table. Specificity in both symptomatic and asymptomatic people was nearly 100%, so a false positive is highly unlikely. Sensitivity wasn’t as high (so false negatives more likely) especially in asymptomatic people, but both negative and positive predictive values were very high. I don’t quite understand how you can go from a low sensitivity to a high negative predictive value, though I do know it has something to do with the pre-test probability and the amount of transmission in the community. I don’t know how vaccination affects that, if at all. statgirl or others?
Anyway, the conclusion was that it could be a very useful tool for screening, especially serially in the school or workplace setting. They also have some guidelines for when a PCR would be necessary for confirmation. It would not surprise me if OSHA recommends this for weekly screening.
Thanks, this is useful! So it looks like it detects about 2/3 of the cases that PCR detects for symptomatic people and about 1/3 of cases that PCR detects for asymptomatic people. And as you mention, chance of false positive is low.
The CDC recently published in the MMWR a study of the accuracy of the Binax NOW home test (which is exactly the same antigen test my husband’s urgent care uses when antigen testing is indicated).
Here is the relevant table. Specificity in both symptomatic and asymptomatic people was nearly 100%, so a false positive is highly unlikely. Sensitivity wasn’t as high (so false negatives more likely) especially in asymptomatic people, but both negative and positive predictive values were very high. I don’t quite understand how you can go from a low sensitivity to a high negative predictive value, though I do know it has something to do with the pre-test probability and the amount of transmission in the community. I don’t know how vaccination affects that, if at all. statgirl or others?
Anyway, the conclusion was that it could be a very useful tool for screening, especially serially in the school or workplace setting. They also have some guidelines for when a PCR would be necessary for confirmation. It would not surprise me if OSHA recommends this for weekly screening.
I was just trying to dig through that article and dust the cobwebs out of my brain to figure it out.
Here’s the scenario in our home: (@ age, but not relavent) Known exposure/close contact, but unknown how close. Symptoms: Headache, low grade fever, sore throat. Person next to him during the day gone, but diagnosis unknown.
BinaxNow: Positive. We figured it was a done deal. Saliva PCR just came back from the lab: Negative,
PCR’s are supposed to be more reliable, but nasopharyngeal moreso than saliva. False positives are rare on BinaxNow, especially when symptomatic.
Who/what do I believe? Any thoughts from anyone who understands this better than me?
Heading to the office tomorrow for a nasopharyngeal PCR swab.
Post by RoxMonster on Sept 10, 2021 19:47:01 GMT -5
Where I work (school) is allowing non-vaxxed to come to work even if their test results aren’t in yet, as long as they show proof they got a test and are awaiting results. I wonder if they will change that with the OSHA directive. (And I agree what they are doing doesn’t make sense but my district doesn’t make sense like ever).
Most of my patients are not vaccinated. They've been taking the wait and see approach essentially. They still mask, and get tested regularly as well. Most of them have said that being "forced" to get vaccinated now is what they'll do and they're not really fighting it if their job requires it or now that restaurants, indoor entertainment, etc requires it. I do think the true "vaccines are going to kill you" crowd is small, but mighty unfortunately. Most of the Black people that I know are absolutely not like that and are taking the pandemic seriously even though they're not vaccinated. Hopefully these vaccine mandates will just continue to help keep everyone safe, especially those who are more at risk of getting severely ill or dying from covid.
This has been my observation too. @ the only students I have who are unvaccinated at this point are Black. They are good maskers, very cautious families and will probably be vaxxed at some point but just aren’t there quite yet. It’s frustrating as someone responsible for keeping folks safe but I understand it.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
Post by ruthie7532 on Sept 10, 2021 20:14:29 GMT -5
[/quote]Here’s the scenario in our home: (@ age, but not relavent) Known exposure/close contact, but unknown how close. Symptoms: Headache, low grade fever, sore throat. Person next to him during the day gone, but diagnosis unknown.
BinaxNow: Positive. We figured it was a done deal. Saliva PCR just came back from the lab: Negative,
PCR’s are supposed to be more reliable, but nasopharyngeal moreso than saliva. False positives are rare on BinaxNow, especially when symptomatic.
Who/what do I believe? Any thoughts from anyone who understands this better than me?
Heading to the office tomorrow for a nasopharyngeal PCR swab.[/quote]
PCRs are very sensitive and specific when done properly. But, operator error is a thing. If RNA is present, it will be amplified and detected. However, if the sample isn’t great, there could be a false negative. In a symptomatic patient, I would treat a positive antigen test (at least a Binax NOW one)as true and not bother with PCR. Especially in areas of high transmission where pretext probability is high—basically everywhere in the US.
In asymptomatic cases it is harder. That’s why the article talks about confirmatory PCR in cases where quarantining is high stakes (like missing school). Serial testing also increases the sensitivity, so that’s why the home kits come with two tests and recommend testing at least twice 36-48 hours apart.
lilac05 I messed up the quote, but the above response is for you .
My gut said to trust the Binax more, too, especially since he was symptomatic. I don’t know if I would have felt the same if it was asymptomatic. It just seems weird when general rule of thumb is “trust the PCR, not the rapid.”
I did the state testing basically as a formality and to get it recorded. I was totally shocked that it came back negative.
Then I put my tin foil hat on and started to wonder if that was intentional…that the state would choose a less accurate option to push out for everyone to use. It’s Iowa. Pretty sure our Governor just wants our numbers to look good, at any cost.