Alec Baldwin fatally shoots cinematographer on set

[lemoncupcake]

Oct 27, 2021 13:37:46 GMT -5 Pilsy said:

I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist, but does this suggest someone intended for this to happen?? That seems unfathomable to me, but I can't wrap my head around why else real bullets would be on a movie set. I hope I'm misunderstanding something.

I read somewhere that the crew used the gun in off hours to do recreational target practice. So if that was the situation that led to this, I think it’s just incredibly idiotic negligence in having real ammo on set in the first place when it was never necessary.

[cattledogkisses]

Oct 27, 2021 13:49:52 GMT -5 lemoncupcake said:

Oct 27, 2021 13:37:46 GMT -5 Pilsy said:

I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist, but does this suggest someone intended for this to happen?? That seems unfathomable to me, but I can't wrap my head around why else real bullets would be on a movie set. I hope I'm misunderstanding something.

I read somewhere that the crew used the gun in off hours to do recreational target practice. So if that was the situation that led to this, I think it’s just incredibly idiotic negligence in having real ammo on set in the first place when it was never necessary.

I read this too, which is just criminally stupid if it’s true. I can’t believe anyone was ok with a prop gun being used for target practice with real ammo. 

[Velar Fricative]

The assistant director stated in an affidavit that he did not thoroughly check the gun before handing it to Baldwin. I do not understand parts of a gun or ammunition *at all* so it's hard for me to visualize some of the information below, and it seems like certain terminology like "live rounds" aren't being applied consistently. Regardless of the confusion, there seemed to be so much negligence on set.

www.nytimes.com/2021/10/27/movies/dave-halls-rust-gun-check.html

He said that the film’s armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, had opened the gun for him to inspect, according to the affidavit.



“He advised he should have checked all of them, but didn’t, and couldn’t recall if she spun the drum,” according to the affidavit. He said he remembered seeing only three rounds.

After the shooting, Mr. Halls said he picked up the gun from a pew inside the church and took it to Ms. Reed. When she opened it, he said, according to the affidavit, he could see “at least four dummy casings with the holes on the side, and one without the hole. He advised this did not have the cap on it and was just the casing.” Dummy rounds are sometimes identified by a pierced hole on the side.



Describing the safety protocols on the set, Mr. Halls said Ms. Gutierrez typically opened guns for him to inspect. “I check the barrel for obstructions, most of the time there is no live fire, she (Hannah) opens the hatch and spins the drum, and I say cold gun on set,” he said in an interview with the investigator, according to the affidavit. It was not clear what he meant by the term “live fire.”

[Pilsy]

lemoncupcake, cattledogkisses, thank you! I hadn't read/heard that. The senselessness of that is tough to grasp.

[lemoncupcake]

Oct 27, 2021 13:55:26 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

The assistant director stated in an affidavit that he did not thoroughly check the gun before handing it to Baldwin. I do not understand parts of a gun or ammunition *at all* so it's hard for me to visualize some of the information below, and it seems like certain terminology like "live rounds" aren't being applied consistently. Regardless of the confusion, there seemed to be so much negligence on set.

www.nytimes.com/2021/10/27/movies/dave-halls-rust-gun-check.html

He said that the film’s armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, had opened the gun for him to inspect, according to the affidavit.



“He advised he should have checked all of them, but didn’t, and couldn’t recall if she spun the drum,” according to the affidavit. He said he remembered seeing only three rounds.

After the shooting, Mr. Halls said he picked up the gun from a pew inside the church and took it to Ms. Reed. When she opened it, he said, according to the affidavit, he could see “at least four dummy casings with the holes on the side, and one without the hole. He advised this did not have the cap on it and was just the casing.” Dummy rounds are sometimes identified by a pierced hole on the side.



Describing the safety protocols on the set, Mr. Halls said Ms. Gutierrez typically opened guns for him to inspect. “I check the barrel for obstructions, most of the time there is no live fire, she (Hannah) opens the hatch and spins the drum, and I say cold gun on set,” he said in an interview with the investigator, according to the affidavit. It was not clear what he meant by the term “live fire.”

I read something from a (qualified/experienced) armorer about the terminology of “live” - although blanks don’t have a projectile/bullet on the end of the casing, it should absolutely still be treated as a loaded gun with all the precautions you would use with a normally loaded gun. There are certainly cases where a blank has gone wrong and someone was hurt or killed.

Basically in a movie set there’s no need for a real bullet to ever be there - so “live” meaning a blank is as “live” as one of their props should ever be.

[pugz]

My first thought had been that peope were playing with the guns when off the clock. That should not be allowed

[Velar Fricative]

And now the affidavit from the armorer was released. I cannot wrap my head around any of this.

www.nytimes.com/2021/10/27/movies/hannah-gutierrez-reed-rust-armorer.html

[Michelle]

Oct 27, 2021 14:14:02 GMT -5 lemoncupcake said:

Oct 27, 2021 13:55:26 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

The assistant director stated in an affidavit that he did not thoroughly check the gun before handing it to Baldwin. I do not understand parts of a gun or ammunition *at all* so it's hard for me to visualize some of the information below, and it seems like certain terminology like "live rounds" aren't being applied consistently. Regardless of the confusion, there seemed to be so much negligence on set.

www.nytimes.com/2021/10/27/movies/dave-halls-rust-gun-check.html

I read something from a (qualified/experienced) armorer about the terminology of “live” - although blanks don’t have a projectile/bullet on the end of the casing, it should absolutely still be treated as a loaded gun with all the precautions you would use with a normally loaded gun. There are certainly cases where a blank has gone wrong and someone was hurt or killed.

Basically in a movie set there’s no need for a real bullet to ever be there - so “live” meaning a blank is as “live” as one of their props should ever be.

A movie production person i follow said in the remotest possibility, the director and cinematographer may want to shoot close ups of real ammo being loaded into a prop gun for shots that show the perspective of the character handling the gun. But in those cases, like with surgery or something, there should be a count before and after to make sure no live rounds are left, and the props should be checked and double checked before determined to be cold.

[wildrice]

Oct 27, 2021 14:27:18 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

And now the affidavit from the armorer was released. I cannot wrap my head around any of this.

www.nytimes.com/2021/10/27/movies/hannah-gutierrez-reed-rust-armorer.html

Someone is lying. Was this an intentional murder? This is nuts!

I guess more likely, someone is lying because they didn't follow protocol and don't want to take the heat for it. Didn't this armorer have safety issues on another job? I am guessing she is describing what she was supposed to do, but neglected to do on that day. Either that, or someone else who had access to the guns set this up and then she neglected to check the weapon after lunch, which to my understanding she should have done. 

[Velar Fricative]

I would be shocked if this were intentional. So many things had to go wrong for this to happen, it sounds like. If you wanted someone dead on that set, it seems like a very complicated way to make it happen but who knows. Not to mention if someone were specifically targeted, the steps usually taken on the sets doesn't make it easy to predict who would be handling the gun and who would be in front of it. But who the hell knows.

Until we hear more I'm just assuming several people were negligent in their duties and it created the perfect storm that resulted in someone's death. Based on interviews and other news releases, it sounds like it isn't rare per se for there to be a screwup when it comes to handling weapons on a set - it's just that the vast majority of instances don't make the news or result in serious injury or death.

[waverly]

From a different NYT article linked to the one posted above.

"Sheriff Mendoza used the words “lead projectile” to describe what was recovered from Mr. Souza’s shoulder, and said it was apparently the same round that had killed Ms. Hutchins. Asked if it was an actual bullet that had been fired — and not a blank — he said, “We would consider it a live round, a bullet, live, because it did fire from the weapon and obviously caused the death of Ms. Hutchins and injured Mr. Souza.”

But the armorer says there are no live bullets on the set. So.....

The AD Halls had a lot of safety violations, and crew complained just days before this accident happened.

[TR]

Oct 27, 2021 15:31:06 GMT -5 waverly said:

From a different NYT article linked to the one posted above.

"Sheriff Mendoza used the words “lead projectile” to describe what was recovered from Mr. Souza’s shoulder, and said it was apparently the same round that had killed Ms. Hutchins. Asked if it was an actual bullet that had been fired — and not a blank — he said, “We would consider it a live round, a bullet, live, because it did fire from the weapon and obviously caused the death of Ms. Hutchins and injured Mr. Souza.”

But the armorer says there are no live bullets on the set. So.....

The AD Halls had a lot of safety violations, and crew complained just days before this accident happened.

I've read that they consider blanks to be "live" ammunition.

[waverly]

Oct 27, 2021 15:40:18 GMT -5 TR said:

Oct 27, 2021 15:31:06 GMT -5 waverly said:

From a different NYT article linked to the one posted above.

"Sheriff Mendoza used the words “lead projectile” to describe what was recovered from Mr. Souza’s shoulder, and said it was apparently the same round that had killed Ms. Hutchins. Asked if it was an actual bullet that had been fired — and not a blank — he said, “We would consider it a live round, a bullet, live, because it did fire from the weapon and obviously caused the death of Ms. Hutchins and injured Mr. Souza.”

But the armorer says there are no live bullets on the set. So.....

The AD Halls had a lot of safety violations, and crew complained just days before this accident happened.

I've read that they consider blanks to be "live" ammunition.

Yes, but that isn't how I interpreted the article.  I'll link it here. www.nytimes.com/2021/10/27/movies/alec-baldwin-press-conference-live-round.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&module=&state=default&region=footer&context=breakout_link_back_to_briefing

[aliciabella]

Oct 27, 2021 15:40:18 GMT -5 TR said:

Oct 27, 2021 15:31:06 GMT -5 waverly said:

From a different NYT article linked to the one posted above.

"Sheriff Mendoza used the words “lead projectile” to describe what was recovered from Mr. Souza’s shoulder, and said it was apparently the same round that had killed Ms. Hutchins. Asked if it was an actual bullet that had been fired — and not a blank — he said, “We would consider it a live round, a bullet, live, because it did fire from the weapon and obviously caused the death of Ms. Hutchins and injured Mr. Souza.”

But the armorer says there are no live bullets on the set. So.....

The AD Halls had a lot of safety violations, and crew complained just days before this accident happened.

I've read that they consider blanks to be "live" ammunition.

The sheriff seems to be referring to a real, lead bullet in this case. Live is used in a different context in movie sets for some reason.

This girl is also the 23 year old daughter of a well-known props guy and was her second movie. There is an interview with her which sounded like a 14 year old. She done fucked up and hope they charge her criminally.

[TBM]

Oct 27, 2021 17:11:24 GMT -5 aliciabella said:

Oct 27, 2021 15:40:18 GMT -5 TR said:

I've read that they consider blanks to be "live" ammunition.

The sheriff seems to be referring to a real, lead bullet in this case. Live is used in a different context in movie sets for some reason.

This girl is also the 23 year old daughter of a well-known props guy and was her second movie. There is an interview with her which sounded like a 14 year old. She done fucked up and hope they charge her criminally.

I read an article that said that this was her third film. There was something about Nicholas Cage had wanted her fired on her second movie, because she didn't follow protocol and fired live shots close to people without a warning... more than once.

[konapoppy]

It’s all so awful. For some reason this story is really sticking with me. It seems like the AD at least is taking some responsibility for not fully checking. I don’t see how an armorer isn’t also responsible in some way shape or form here, regardless of what her statement is.

[waverly]

Oct 27, 2021 19:10:28 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

It’s all so awful. For some reason this story is really sticking with me. It seems like the AD at least is taking some responsibility for not fully checking. I don’t see how an armorer isn’t also responsible in some way shape or form here, regardless of what her statement is.

If there are actual bullets on set and shouldn’t be I would assume the armorer brought them in. I know that is an assumption and real bullets could have been snuck in, but then again how wouldn’t she have noticed when she checked the guns and saw them? Because there were reports of this happening a few days before this incident.

[Deleted]

Oct 27, 2021 19:10:28 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

It’s all so awful. For some reason this story is really sticking with me. It seems like the AD at least is taking some responsibility for not fully checking. I don’t see how an armorer isn’t also responsible in some way shape or form here, regardless of what her statement is.

It’s the responsibility of every single person who handles weapons to verify if it’s loaded and with what kind of ammo. It may have been her job description to prepare and secure the weapons, but the AD who put them on set should have verified (ideally with another qualified person looking on to double-check) and when Alec Baldwin took possession, he also should have checked with a second person present.

As far as criminal charges, it remains to be seen what might come out. But there is certainly more than enough for civil suit.

[cous0226]

The sheriff said on Anderson tonight that it was a live round. He also confirmed that there were other live rounds found within the area of where this happened. No wonder some crew walked off the set. This is just so awful and people need to be held responsible.

[konapoppy]

Oct 27, 2021 19:54:56 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Oct 27, 2021 19:31:34 GMT -5 @villainv said:

It’s the responsibility of every single person who handles weapons to verify if it’s loaded and with what kind of ammo. It may have been her job description to prepare and secure the weapons, but the AD who put them on set should have verified (ideally with another qualified person looking on to double-check) and when Alec Baldwin took possession, he also should have checked with a second person present.

As far as criminal charges, it remains to be seen what might come out. But there is certainly more than enough for civil suit.

Do you know this is the rule on movie sets, though?

Someone here will probably throw things at me for not citing anything, but I did see folks on Twitter saying it is actually less secure for an actor who knows nothing about guns to do a check, since it can actually introduce risk.

[Velar Fricative]

Oct 27, 2021 20:06:35 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Oct 27, 2021 19:54:56 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Do you know this is the rule on movie sets, though?

Someone here will probably throw things at me for not citing anything, but I did see folks on Twitter saying it is actually less secure for an actor who knows nothing about guns to do a check, since it can actually introduce risk.

I saw this too, but then I also saw some experienced people chime in that normally, those who are better able to handle the weapon also show the actor that the gun isn’t loaded just before the scene. Like, I would not expect Baldwin or most other actors to be gun experts, but it sounds like there are normally many safety checks and trainings for anyone handling the weapon at any point. It does seem like everyone who was otherwise tasked with some sort of gun check didn’t do everything they needed to do. I think that’s why people were stunned - the same experts have said there is so much redundancy built into the safety checks that you wouldn’t expect *every* part to fail.

[Deleted]

Oct 27, 2021 20:06:35 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Oct 27, 2021 19:54:56 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Do you know this is the rule on movie sets, though?

Someone here will probably throw things at me for not citing anything, but I did see folks on Twitter saying it is actually less secure for an actor who knows nothing about guns to do a check, since it can actually introduce risk.

I say this as an absolute non-gun expert and non-gun person who has been required by my job to handle weapons for certain periods of time — it’s not hard to learn. You can easily learn in half a day how to safely handle a weapon, clear it, load and unload ammo, disassemble and re-assemble, function check, and fix minor malfunctions. It doesn’t make one an expert by any means, but it certainly is enough to competently and confidently handle a weapon safely. I would expect an actor handling weapons to be given at least this same level of training.

I don’t know if AB was comfortable with weapons or not, but if he any training at all, he would never accept a weapon without personally checking it first.

[waverly]

I think this too if it were me as an actor I would have checked. But realistically the thought is there are strict protocols on all his other movies, and it has already been checked by at least 2 people. So what I mean to say is that I see this to be far more the fault of the armorer and the AD and whoever brought live bullets on set for than I do of it being Alec Baldwin’s fault.

I don’t know what movie protocols are and whether Alec violated them or not, but I know the other people did.

ETA- just reading an article on this they say the armorer should have shown the talent that the gun was empty. The talent then signs off that it’s empty verbally.

[akayf]

Oct 27, 2021 21:05:03 GMT -5 waverly said:

I think this too if it were me as an actor I would have checked. But realistically the thought is there are strict protocols on all his other movies, and it has already been checked by at least 2 people. So what I mean to say is that I see this to be far more the fault of the armorer and the AD and whoever brought live bullets on set for than I do of it being Alec Baldwin’s fault.

I don’t know what movie protocols are and whether Alec violated them or not, but I know the other people did.

ETA- just reading an article on this they say the armorer should have shown the talent that the gun was empty. The talent then signs off that it’s empty verbally.

Is it possible Alec Baldwin may have not even realized it was a real gun?

From the CBS article posted above

“He (the sheriff) said there were three firearms recovered on the set: the gun believed to be fired by Baldwin, a revolver that appears to have some kind of modification to the cylinder, and a plastic non-functioning revolver.”

Baldwin was practicing drawing the gun from the holster. Maybe he thought he had been handed one of the other 2 guns, not the one that was an actual functioning gun.

[konapoppy]

I am not sure any actor is being set up for success with a 24 year old armorer (who is, by definition, relatively inexperienced) and an AD who was recently fired for safety issues as the main lines of defense.

[isabel]

Oct 27, 2021 17:17:32 GMT -5 TBM said:

Oct 27, 2021 17:11:24 GMT -5 aliciabella said:

The sheriff seems to be referring to a real, lead bullet in this case. Live is used in a different context in movie sets for some reason.

This girl is also the 23 year old daughter of a well-known props guy and was her second movie. There is an interview with her which sounded like a 14 year old. She done fucked up and hope they charge her criminally.

I read an article that said that this was her third film. There was something about Nicholas Cage had wanted her fired on her second movie, because she didn't follow protocol and fired live shots close to people without a warning... more than once.

WTF?

[konapoppy]

Oct 27, 2021 22:32:19 GMT -5 isabel said:

Oct 27, 2021 17:17:32 GMT -5 TBM said:

I read an article that said that this was her third film. There was something about Nicholas Cage had wanted her fired on her second movie, because she didn't follow protocol and fired live shots close to people without a warning... more than once.

WTF?

This is probably from the wrap, which I am not sure is reputable. Other staff disagreed with this recollection. And it didn’t say Cage wanted her fired, but the person interviewed did:
www.thewrap.com/rust-armorer-inexperience-hannah-gutierrez-fired-nicolas-cage-film/

Same person spoke to cnn: www.cnn.com/2021/10/27/entertainment/armorer-rust-set/index.html

[sonrisa]

Oct 27, 2021 20:53:59 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Oct 27, 2021 20:06:35 GMT -5 konapoppy said:

Someone here will probably throw things at me for not citing anything, but I did see folks on Twitter saying it is actually less secure for an actor who knows nothing about guns to do a check, since it can actually introduce risk.

I say this as an absolute non-gun expert and non-gun person who has been required by my job to handle weapons for certain periods of time — it’s not hard to learn. You can easily learn in half a day how to safely handle a weapon, clear it, load and unload ammo, disassemble and re-assemble, function check, and fix minor malfunctions. It doesn’t make one an expert by any means, but it certainly is enough to competently and confidently handle a weapon safely. I would expect an actor handling weapons to be given at least this same level of training.

I don’t know if AB was comfortable with weapons or not, but if he any training at all, he would never accept a weapon without personally checking it first.

I half agree with you, but I think there are many, many actors I wouldn't trust with a weapon or to truly learn from the training as much as I'd trust you with one. I agree with the idea above that Alec should have been required to be at least observer a check at hand off, even if the weapon isn't in his hands until after that check. 

[minzy]

How terrible for everyone involved. I find this so bothersome, and I say that as someone who was taught early on how to properly shoot multiple kinds of guns. Leaving aside the huge issue that this gun actually had something in the chamber, safety training 101 is to never, ever point a gun at a person (and also never be down range of someone with a gun). Unless it is unloaded and stored away, you just act like live rounds are constantly firing out of it. That was drilled into me my entire life. I don’t care if it’s a movie and that somehow makes it special, you never point a gun at someone unless you’re intending to kill them. (I hate “toy” guns and water guns, and, to be honest, even all these forehead temperature “guns” make me a little uneasy.)

So many things went wrong here. A little more training on literally anyone’s part, and this could have been prevented. And I understand this movie is about some kind of crime in 1880s Kansas, but maybe there could also be fewer movies where guns are featured…

[sonrisa]

Oct 28, 2021 5:42:38 GMT -5 minzy said:

safety training 101 is to never, ever point a gun at a person (and also never be down range of someone with a gun).

 but maybe there could also be fewer movies where guns are featured…

Did you read the article on the armorer? She would put revolvers under her armpit so she could carry more things and then turn her back on people (so the guns would point at people). It's unthinkable.

On the second point, I agree whole heartedly. Violence in American entertainment is out of control.