TW @: Uvalde School Shooting 5/24/22

[Deleted]

May 26, 2022 6:46:12 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

They going with doors then.

The Sandy Hook murderer shot his way through the front doors with a Bushmaster but ok doors.

“Mental health” and “stronger doors” seem to be the talking points. “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” Except in other countries where they don’t, because they don’t have guns.

I do agree that we need better mental health care in this country, and this it’s probably one of many things that can be done to prevent gun violence. Of course, we’d need to actually fund it, destigmatize it, and make it accessible. And we also need to admit that racism (like in the case of the Buffalo shooter) isn’t a mental illness.

People are fucking nuts if they think the solution is schools with heavy steel doors, metal detectors, and gunshot detection systems. Especially now that it seems like these features prevented LEOs from reaching the shooter inside Robb. But really, wouldn’t we all rather live in a society that was safe enough that we don’t need bulletproof doors in schools?!?

[wildrice]

May 25, 2022 20:42:23 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

The sarcastic comments about body armor being needed to wear to school or put in backpacks are not cool.

I have 2 fourth graders so might be taking the comments above a different way right now, but still not a topic to joke about.

I am sorry that it read as a joke. My heart is broken for the families affected and for all of the parents in the US who have to be scared to send their children to school. I see absolutely no humor in this.

I am absolutely furious about this and extremely bitter, so it was more of a bitter comment than anything - instead of finding actual solutions (like banning or limiting access to guns), many of the people in charge are instead talking about ways to arm teachers, make classrooms more difficult to penetrate, or using bulletproof backpacks. I guess nobody has actually suggested kids go to school wearing full armor, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's next given the completely absurd way that mass shootings are handled in this country. Schools should not be war zones. 18 year olds (or anyone, really) should not be allowed to buy automatic rifles and combat armor. None of this makes any sense and none of it is ok.

[wildrice]

Also, what the fuck does "mental health" even mean? That's so stigmatizing. Mental health is such a broad category and I can't think of a single mental health diagnosis that means people will go shoot a bunch of other people. Most people with mental health problems are not dangerous. Those that are (sociopaths? maybe?) are not likely to respond much to treatment anyway, and you can't just lock people up who haven't committed a crime yet, so where does that leave us with preventing them from doing this anyway?

[isabel]

May 26, 2022 7:21:52 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Also, what the fuck does "mental health" even mean? That's so stigmatizing. Mental health is such a broad category and I can't think of a single mental health diagnosis that means people will go shoot a bunch of other people. Most people with mental health problems are not dangerous. Those that are (sociopaths? maybe?) are not likely to respond much to treatment anyway, and you can't just lock people up who haven't committed a crime yet, so where does that leave us with preventing them from doing this anyway?

Agreed. The Buffalo shooter isn’t mentally ill. He’s a white supremacist.

[melmaria]

May 26, 2022 6:37:20 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Frustrated onlookers (including a parents whose child was killed) urged police to charge the building but they remained outside.

apnews.com/article/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-44a7cfb990feaa6ffe482483df6e4683

I won’t sit here and say I understand police response protocols and know what’s appropriate but this is disturbing.

*****PDQ*****: my H is not a cop but works in EMS part-time and has done multiple active shooter trainings for this exact scenario, in conjunction with police departments. He says what happened makes absolutely no sense (at least based on what we know now).

[Deleted]

May 26, 2022 7:21:52 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Also, what the fuck does "mental health" even mean? That's so stigmatizing. Mental health is such a broad category and I can't think of a single mental health diagnosis that means people will go shoot a bunch of other people. Most people with mental health problems are not dangerous. Those that are (sociopaths? maybe?) are not likely to respond much to treatment anyway, and you can't just lock people up who haven't committed a crime yet, so where does that leave us with preventing them from doing this anyway?

I think (I hope?) that making Mental Healthcare abundant and available might help troubled people process their feelings before they get to a point where they feel like their only option is violence. The Robb shooter, for example, was apparently bullied as a kid. I’m not saying that was why he went in and shot up a school, and it certainly wouldn’t excuse his actions — but MAYBE if there had been more mental healthcare available he wouldn’t have been bullied in the first place, and if he was he could have gotten help and support that could have kept him on a path away from violence.

You are absolutely correct though — the first words out of peoples mouths when stuff like this happens is “that person must have been mentally ill to do something like that.” The VAST majority of people with mental illness do not commit acts of violence. And some violent people are just bad people with no diagnosis.

[wawa]

May 25, 2022 18:24:23 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Is there any legitimate (civilian) use of kevlar or body armor? Any reason a normal person should be legally allowed to buy it?

they use kevlar to make protective motorcycle riding clothes and other protective gear for various risky jobs (think like lumberjack)

Which is a very literal answer to what might have been a figurative question, and if so, i apologize, but as far as i know, kevlar lined motorcycle jeans are not bulletproof so it's not the same thing as body armor anyway.

[cville]

I can't believe this fucking country. The idea is that our kids have to be educated in reinforced prison-like complexes instead of TAKING AWAY GUNS? No. I reject that shit with every fiber of my being. We reinforce the doors and then there's the windows. We reinforce the doors then kids can't get out. We reinforce the doors because people are deranged and afraid of a world without their precious multiple military grade guns (don't even get me started on the "not military" because if not it wouldn't take militarized police en masse to have stopped him)? But we don't GET RID OF THE THINGS THAT ARE DESIGNED TO DO NOTHING BUT KILL?

Fuck everything.

[missva]

I thought there was absolutely no way this story could get worse, but hearing the details come out about the police (lack of) response has just set me over the edge. Shaun King has videos and a timeline. They are beyond heartbreaking so take care if you watch them. It took 90 minutes from the time the first 911 call was made until they killed the shooter.

[cville]

Also, Beto is right, but IMO that was not the right move with the mayor there. Go after the state and federal officials. But that mayor, who I recognize has shitpig political views, is dealing with a crisis in his home. It's not a good look and gives them opportunity to cry foul.


Eta: but I'm still glad he did. Many emotions.

[mskitkat]

I strongly advise anyone who is feeling fragile to completely avoid Al news about this today. The more that comes out about what actually happened, the worse it gets.

[lemoncupcake]

May 26, 2022 8:14:24 GMT -5 cville said:

Also, Beto is right, but IMO that was not the right move with the mayor there. Go after the state and federal officials. But that mayor, who I recognize has shitpig political views, is dealing with a crisis in his home. It's not a good look and gives them opportunity to cry foul.


Eta: but I'm still glad he did. Many emotions.

The men talking when he interrupted were the Governor and Lt Governor.

[cville]

May 26, 2022 8:31:14 GMT -5 lemoncupcake said:

May 26, 2022 8:14:24 GMT -5 cville said:

Also, Beto is right, but IMO that was not the right move with the mayor there. Go after the state and federal officials. But that mayor, who I recognize has shitpig political views, is dealing with a crisis in his home. It's not a good look and gives them opportunity to cry foul.


Eta: but I'm still glad he did. Many emotions.

The men talking when he interrupted were the Governor and Lt Governor.

Yes. But the mayor was there.

Again, I'm glad he did. But they're going to call it a stunt and having the mayor saying he's a son of a bitch doesn't help.

But I'm glad he did.

So.

[karinothing]

melmaria, Thanks for chiming in. I was talking to a friend about this earlier today. I don't honestly know what the protocol is and maybe police don't charge into active shooting situations without more knowledge. They aren't soldiers, but if you are saying this goes against protocol that is another story.

[AJL]

May 26, 2022 7:55:07 GMT -5 melmaria said:

May 26, 2022 6:37:20 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Frustrated onlookers (including a parents whose child was killed) urged police to charge the building but they remained outside.

apnews.com/article/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-44a7cfb990feaa6ffe482483df6e4683

I won’t sit here and say I understand police response protocols and know what’s appropriate but this is disturbing.

(removed comment)

Well, here's the thing. It turns out that police do not have a constitutional obligation to actually protect the public.

From the American Prospect--- link prospect.org/justice/police-have-no-duty-to-protect-the-public/

"This case builds upon Supreme Court precedent in Deshaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services (1989). In that case...the Court ruled that that the state did not have a special obligation to protect a citizen against harms it did not create.

Based on these precedents,... the police do not have to act if someone is actively being harmed, they do not have to arrest someone who has violated orders, and they do not have any obligation to protect you from others."

More articles about the SCOTUS ruling ---

www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

www.washingtonpost.com/education/2018/12/21/us-judge-says-law-enforcement-officers-had-no-legal-duty-protect-parkland-students-during-mass-shooting/

www.barneslawllp.com/blog/police-not-required-protect

[melmaria]

karinothing I’m not saying that for sure and I’m certainly not an expert, but he thought it was very strange/off based on his experience and the limited/contradictory info we have so far. Like, basically, he has trained for this, and this is not similar to any response he’s seen done in training.

But, people are human, and it’s not the first time depending on a cop or security guard with a pistol to stop the whole thing has failed. So again, as always, the real problem is the guns.

slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/05/gop-school-uvalde-shooting-response-guys-with-guns.html

“So-called good guys with guns fail to effectively deter or end mass shootings for a variety of tactical and psychological reasons.

For one thing, it’s actually very hard to shoot straight in a situation like a mass shooting. RAND analysts have found that even highly trained NYPD officers only hit their intended target in 19 percent of gunfire exchanges. Winning a gunfight with a shooter only becomes more difficult when the perpetrator carries a semi-automatic rifle like an AR-15, as the Uvalde suspect and many others have done. These weapons have a much longer range and are far more accurate than the kinds of pistols typically used by police and civilian concealed carriers, allowing shooters to keep responders far enough away that their own weapons will be of little use. The Uvalde gunman, for instance, managed to overpower two officers whom he encountered on his way to the elementary school.

In the most extreme cases, a single gunman with a semi-automatic rifle can stymie an entire SWAT team for hours: Back in 2015, a single gunman assaulting a Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood with an AK-style rifle held off police for the better part of a day before surrendering.

The idea that armed guards and teachers could deter shootings in the first place presumes mass shooters behave rationally, weighing risks, when in fact the opposite is true. As the JAMA authors noted, “many school shooters are actively suicidal, intending to die in the act, so an armed officer may be an incentive rather than a deterrent.”

Considering the long odds of taking down a determined shooter equipped with an assault rifle, armed police and bystanders sometimes have difficulty motivating themselves to actually engage at all, as happened so infamously in the Parkland shooting when two sheriff’s deputies apparently hid from the gunman.“

[melmaria]

Or, put another way, if the “blue lives matter” folks really cared about police lives, they would support shit that made it less likely that a cop would ever find him or herself in this fucking situation to begin with.

[neverfstop]

May 26, 2022 8:08:46 GMT -5 wawa said:

May 25, 2022 18:24:23 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Is there any legitimate (civilian) use of kevlar or body armor? Any reason a normal person should be legally allowed to buy it?

they use kevlar to make protective motorcycle riding clothes and other protective gear for various risky jobs (think like lumberjack)

Which is a very literal answer to what might have been a figurative question, and if so, i apologize, but as far as i know, kevlar lined motorcycle jeans are not bulletproof so it's not the same thing as body armor anyway.

Ok, then we can just put that (kevlar, body armor, etc.) on the list of items that should be restricted for sale

[breezy8407]

Also a parent of two 4th graders. My son was really having a hard time last night. The why questions I can't answer.

I don't work on schools but I would like these assholes to tell us what kind of doors they are proposing. And then tell me who is going to pay for all these upgrades (if thats even a thing). The HS in our district wanted to upgrade all the exit doors on the school so kids couldn't prop them open anymore to let their friends in after school started. Guess what happened? They couldn't afford the cost to add alarms to them all. I know a mind numbing amount about door hardware. It won't matter.

[Patsy Baloney]

May 26, 2022 8:32:18 GMT -5 cville said:

May 26, 2022 8:31:14 GMT -5 lemoncupcake said:

The men talking when he interrupted were the Governor and Lt Governor.

Yes. But the mayor was there.

Again, I'm glad he did. But they're going to call it a stunt and having the mayor saying he's a son of a bitch doesn't help.

But I'm glad he did.

So.

I honestly wish more people would do this everywhere. I’m fully on board with disrupting politician’s lives until they are so uncomfortable they cannot live with themselves and finally, fully represent the will of the people to create a society where children aren’t being destroyed by gun violence.

I’m committed to doing it in my personal life with the, “Well mental health…” and the, “Well, the constitution says…” idiots I’m connected to. I have a state and fed rep running as 2A supporters. Nah. You’re not going to get to do that without hearing from me repeatedly about the blood on your hands and the murders you’re responsible for.

Anyway, I’m really fucking mad and goddammit, this is the moment. No more. They’re all murderers. Fuck guns, fuck the government, ACAB, I’ve had it.

[sonrisa]

May 26, 2022 7:21:52 GMT -5 wildrice said:

 Most people with mental health problems are not dangerous. 

Yes. there is a link between violence/crime and mental health but that link goes the other way. Mental health challenges put people at an increased risk for being victims of violence and exploitation. 

[sonrisa]

Again: WE NEED TO REPEAL THE SECOND AMENDMENT. Repealing the second amendment doesn't get rid of guns. It gets rid of the shitty justification for stopping any common sense laws about guns.

And sensible laws work. 
www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/world/europe/gun-laws-australia-britain.html

[maudefindlay]

Someone posted online yesterday that when the 2nd Amendment was written, the writers had muskets in mind that shot 2 to 3 times a minute and that they would not have been able to fathom an AR-15 that shoots 20 to 45 bullets per minute. A musket and an AR-15 both governed by the same Amendment, it's just absurd.

[melmaria]

"A video, posted to a parent’s Facebook account and reviewed by The Washington Post, shows that families waiting outside Robb Elementary School were frustrated by the police response and wanted to attempt to enter the building themselves. Steven McCraw, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, told reporters Wednesday that 40 minutes to an hour transpired between when officers first encountered the gunman and when he was shot.

Security experts are questioning whether the standard protocol in responding to a school shooting was followed. Guidelines developed in the aftermath of the 1999 Columbine massacre instruct officers to immediately target the gunman. Kenneth Trump, a national school security expert, said that any delay in going inside will be hard to explain. McCraw has defended the response, saying officers saved lives."

www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/26/texas-school-shooting-uvalde-victims-live-updates/

[wanderingback]

May 26, 2022 8:13:26 GMT -5 missva said:

I thought there was absolutely no way this story could get worse, but hearing the details come out about the police (lack of) response has just set me over the edge. Shaun King has videos and a timeline. They are beyond heartbreaking so take care if you watch them. It took 90 minutes from the time the first 911 call was made until they killed the shooter.

This is unrelated but Shaun King is a piece of trash and fraudster and I urge you to get your news information from a more legit and credible source.

[melmaria]

Dear God: www.kens5.com/article/news/special-reports/uvalde-school-shooting/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-fourth-grader-student-account-elementary/273-51cc4e26-7a0a-49c0-ba7a-48cdd47fa235

A fourth grader who survived the mass shooting at Robb Elementary has shared gut-wrenching details about what he witnessed inside that classroom.

"He shot the next person’s door. We have a door in the middle. He opened it. He came in and he crouched a little bit and he said, he said, 'It's time to die,'" the boy recalled.

Authorities say the suspect barricaded himself inside a classroom and opened fire on the people inside, killing 19 children and two teachers before he was killed by law enforcement.

"When I heard the shooting through the door, I told my friend to hide under something so he won't find us," he said. “I was hiding hard. And I was telling my friend to not talk because he is going to hear us.”

The boy and four others hid under a table that had a tablecloth over it, which may have shielded them from the shooter's view and saved their lives. The boy shared heartbreaking details about what happened in that room.

“When the cops came, the cop said: 'Yell if you need help!' And one of the persons in my class said 'help.' The guy overheard and he came in and shot her," the boy said. "The cop barged into that classroom. The guy shot at the cop. And the cops started shooting.”

[missva]

May 26, 2022 11:50:21 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

May 26, 2022 8:13:26 GMT -5 missva said:

I thought there was absolutely no way this story could get worse, but hearing the details come out about the police (lack of) response has just set me over the edge. Shaun King has videos and a timeline. They are beyond heartbreaking so take care if you watch them. It took 90 minutes from the time the first 911 call was made until they killed the shooter.

This is unrelated but Shaun King is a piece of trash and fraudster and I urge you to get your news information from a more legit and credible source.

Good to know.  (He's not my news source - this issue is widely reported, he was just the only one I saw with videos.)

[pixy0stix]

Guys. I cannot.

[cherry1111]

May 26, 2022 11:43:45 GMT -5 melmaria said:

"A video, posted to a parent’s Facebook account and reviewed by The Washington Post, shows that families waiting outside Robb Elementary School were frustrated by the police response and wanted to attempt to enter the building themselves. Steven McCraw, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, told reporters Wednesday that 40 minutes to an hour transpired between when officers first encountered the gunman and when he was shot.

Security experts are questioning whether the standard protocol in responding to a school shooting was followed. Guidelines developed in the aftermath of the 1999 Columbine massacre instruct officers to immediately target the gunman. Kenneth Trump, a national school security expert, said that any delay in going inside will be hard to explain. McCraw has defended the response, saying officers saved lives."

www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/26/texas-school-shooting-uvalde-victims-live-updates/

40 minutes to an hour - it’s a miracle we aren’t talking 100+ dead.

[sonrisa]

((pixy))