The Millennial lifestyle is getting costlier

[pixy0stix]

Jun 14, 2022 14:30:46 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Jun 14, 2022 9:48:27 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Huh. So am I supposed to feel sorry for these companies that killed restaurants (often adding them to their aps and not telling the restaurants and forcing them to cut their own profits), and made profits on the backs of their drivers by promising them a ton of money but in the end costing the drivers to participate in their businesses?

Am I supposed to feel bad that people are staring into the abyss of their own choices?

No sympathy for the companies. They’ve been on borrowed time since the beginning.

For consumers? It depends. I mean, I’m not saying anyone in this situation deserves sympathy per se, but these apps did serve a need at the right moment. For example, the two times we ever used grocery delivery were when we were quarantined after a covid exposure (didn’t have any local friends/family we could ask to shop for us) and when I broke my hand and couldn’t drive. Oh, and I guess I used it once to send groceries to my mom from out of state when my dad was dying.

I see wawa ’s point about how these services deterred investment in public transit. But that ignores that fact that there are places actively fighting that investment — take the Koch brothers pouring money into lobbying against things as simple as new bus routes.

www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html

So while all of that was happening in the background, it was easy for a 20-something in Nashville to spend a few bucks to get home after a night of drinking instead of having more drunk drivers on the road.

In short, for consumers, it’s a bit more complicated than whether someone made “bad choices.”

It's the chicken or the egg, are consumers driving this or are the companies. In large part, most of these start ups wouldn't have gotten anywhere if we (collective) hadn't decided we were all in on the MLM of the gig economy.

The state of public transit has a LOT to do with individual consumer choices. A lot. More so than any one conglomerate combined. This isn't the argument of global warming and is it large oil companies driving it or consumers. We've made the individual choice in the United States that we don't want public transit. It's in our choices of modes of transportation, where we live, who we want as neighbors, the government we elect and keep elected, etc. 

[pixy0stix]

Actually, no, I stand by my bad choices comment. As soon as these companies started, the restaurant businesses said it wasn't good for them. I could probably go back and find the articles where we discussed this. As soon as Uber started, there were articles about how it decimated local transportation like cabs, etc. There were also articles about how much money it actually took for drivers to continue to be in business. Yet, collectively, we've all chosen to ignore them. I, myself, took a ton of lyft's on vacation this weekend. In part because I saw exactly one cab the entire time we were there. This is entire our, the consumer's, fault. I'm getting tired of us (general) pushing shit away and saying it wasn't our responsibility. This here, this is ours. We chose to use these companies, and this is where we are now.

[pinkdutchtulips]

Jun 14, 2022 14:50:44 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

pinkdutchtulips, can you @ please?

fixed it !

[sent]

Jun 14, 2022 14:30:46 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

So while all of that was happening in the background, it was easy for a 20-something in Nashville to spend a few bucks to get home after a night of drinking instead of having more drunk drivers on the road.

In short, for consumers, it’s a bit more complicated than whether someone made “bad choices.”

I made my drunk then-boyfriend (now spouse) walk home from downtown Nashville one day in the pre-Uber era. I was mad at him because I had stayed sober so I could drive. Nashville actually has really nice sidewalks in its downtown area that cover a lot of miles but I hardly saw people walking when I lived there. Cabs have always been around, even in Nashville.  We as a society just like cheap prices to enjoy what we think are the nice things we deserve, like a ride home from someone else we paid to be a cheap designated driver.

[goldengirlz]

Jun 14, 2022 15:22:02 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jun 14, 2022 14:30:46 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

No sympathy for the companies. They’ve been on borrowed time since the beginning.

For consumers? It depends. I mean, I’m not saying anyone in this situation deserves sympathy per se, but these apps did serve a need at the right moment. For example, the two times we ever used grocery delivery were when we were quarantined after a covid exposure (didn’t have any local friends/family we could ask to shop for us) and when I broke my hand and couldn’t drive. Oh, and I guess I used it once to send groceries to my mom from out of state when my dad was dying.

I see wawa ’s point about how these services deterred investment in public transit. But that ignores that fact that there are places actively fighting that investment — take the Koch brothers pouring money into lobbying against things as simple as new bus routes.

www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html

So while all of that was happening in the background, it was easy for a 20-something in Nashville to spend a few bucks to get home after a night of drinking instead of having more drunk drivers on the road.

In short, for consumers, it’s a bit more complicated than whether someone made “bad choices.”

It's the chicken or the egg, are consumers driving this or are the companies. In large part, most of these start ups wouldn't have gotten anywhere if we (collective) hadn't decided we were all in on the MLM of the gig economy.

The state of public transit has a LOT to do with individual consumer choices. A lot. More so than any one conglomerate combined. This isn't the argument of global warming and is it large oil companies driving it or consumers. We've made the individual choice in the United States that we don't want public transit. It's in our choices of modes of transportation, where we live, who we want as neighbors, the government we elect and keep elected, etc. 

I agree with you to an extent but “we” are not a monolith. The people who pour millions into lobbying against public transit initiatives — and the ones voting them down — aren’t necessarily the individuals who rely on public transit. I’ve lived in a deep red state (one of the ones mentioned in the article I linked) and I know how frustrating it is. We voted with our feet in using mass transit, but the reality is that in a place that actively tries to kill public transit initiatives, eventually you cave and buy a car. Or take that Uber.

Also, I have a lot of sympathy for the cab drivers who financed their medallions and then lost everything. But the cab industry, as a group, left a lot of room for improvement. The prices weren’t transparent, you’d have no idea whether they’d show up on time, you often had to call and call to find a driver. Just because you’re a legacy industry doesn’t mean you’re the gold standard. The cab industry was decimated because taking cabs was a bad experience.

ETA: Oh, and to sent’s point about walking! I’m a big walker but that was the only time in my life when men in pick-up trucks would honk at me and yell out the window (sometimes asking if I needed help — but mostly just crass.) Because I, a woman, had the audacity to walk. (That has nothing to do with the broader discussion. Just an observation because she brought it up.)

[sent]

goldengirlz , so if we think about it, this issue is coming full circle and goes back generations before the millennials. We (society "we") used to live in downtowns and walk or we lived on the farms and rarely went downtown. I've heard we even had street cars to get around within downtowns and passenger trains with routes more extensive than today's Amtrak. Big Auto disrupted all of that and many of us moved out to the suburbs. We developed commuter rails to travel back into the cities because I'm actually not sure why places like NYC has decent commuter rails and places like Atlanta built giant highways for commuters instead. Big Tech is trying to disrupt something which after this thread, I'm confused again if its cabs or commuter rails or what. COVID made it ok to WFH and decrease the dependence on commuter rails and stay in the suburbs. It also made those who can afford it start to depend more on grocery delivery apps. Etc.

It's basically the circle of life at this point.

[wawa]

Jun 14, 2022 16:37:50 GMT -5 sent said:

goldengirlz , so if we think about it, this issue is coming full circle and goes back generations before the millennials. We (society "we") used to live in downtowns and walk or we lived on the farms and rarely went downtown. I've heard we even had street cars to get around within downtowns and passenger trains with routes more extensive than today's Amtrak. Big Auto disrupted all of that and many of us moved out to the suburbs. We developed commuter rails to travel back into the cities because I'm actually not sure why places like NYC has decent commuter rails and places like Atlanta built giant highways for commuters instead. Big Tech is trying to disrupt something which after this thread, I'm confused again if its cabs or commuter rails or what. COVID made it ok to WFH and decrease the dependence on commuter rails and stay in the suburbs. It also made those who can afford it start to depend more on grocery delivery apps. Etc.

It's basically the circle of life at this point.

I'm holding up a baby lion right now.

Also yes, all of it. Cabs, transit (not so much commuter rail as boring ole bus networks), restaurants, etc. It's been not awesome for a whole range of things!

[Velar Fricative]

Jun 14, 2022 16:37:50 GMT -5 sent said:

goldengirlz , so if we think about it, this issue is coming full circle and goes back generations before the millennials. We (society "we") used to live in downtowns and walk or we lived on the farms and rarely went downtown. I've heard we even had street cars to get around within downtowns and passenger trains with routes more extensive than today's Amtrak. Big Auto disrupted all of that and many of us moved out to the suburbs. We developed commuter rails to travel back into the cities because I'm actually not sure why places like NYC has decent commuter rails and places like Atlanta built giant highways for commuters instead. Big Tech is trying to disrupt something which after this thread, I'm confused again if its cabs or commuter rails or what. COVID made it ok to WFH and decrease the dependence on commuter rails and stay in the suburbs. It also made those who can afford it start to depend more on grocery delivery apps. Etc.

It's basically the circle of life at this point.

I think this had to do with during when certain cities grew outward and their suburbs really boomed. I think. Like how California and many of its cities blew up population-wise after WWII, so right when the interstate system began to be built. Same goes for Texas cities, Atlanta, etc. (though later in the 20th century for some other cities). Yes, some suburbs grew or were built around NYC during the same time (hello, Levittown), but many of its suburbs are pretty historic and have existed before WWII. The suburb I grew up in in Westchester County was incorporated in 1903. It has a Metro-North station with trackage along these railroad lines that existed in the 1800s. 

Basically, it's more evidence that when something already exists, we're more likely to use it or improve upon it for updated usage. But trying to build new railroads in, say, booming Southern cities and suburbs now is going to be impossible because the most recent expansions to get people from here to there in those areas involved cars and highways. 

[formerlyak]

WRT why some places don’t have better metro and rail systems, it’s been pointed out that spread is an issue - metros expanding outward. I’m in LA and our metro area is very widespread compared to say San Francisco where I lived after college and took public transit everywhere. There is a great exhibit about this at the Petersen Automotive Museum that shows the spread of LA metro over decades and when and why the major freeways were built. Neighborhoods were built then to be convenient to these freeways. Once the neighborhoods are built, there are basically two options for adding pubic transportation like rail lines - follow the freeways and go under or alongside major roads or impact homes. The impacted homes have traditionally been in lower-income neighborhoods, displacing these neighbors. There is, for good reason, a lot of pushback on that. So the expansions have followed freeways and major roads like Wilshire Blvd which runs from Downtown LA to the ocean. I could technically get downtown using the light rail from my house. But, it takes me an hour with traffic to drive downtown and at least 90 minutes to take the rail. That’s if there are no delays. When I have to drop my kid off at 7:30, and work starts at 8:30, the only way I have a chance of making it is driving. I think once the Wilshire expansion is finished a lot of people will take it downtown from my old neighborhood in Santa Monica. It could be a game changer in that area. They are talking about a rail going up the 405 from my neighborhood to Westwood. That would also help a lot. But it’s very expensive and takes a long time. The Wilshire expansion has been in the works for almost a decade at this point.

[wawa]

We're wandering down one of my pet rabbit holes, but I feel like we're getting a little far afield from the initial topic here. 

So I'm resisting the urge to write a dissertation on highway construction through and into cities, transit funding failures, rail removal, the death of the streetcar, the rise of the suburb, racism in all of those topics, and so forth because those are all factors that were in place well before this particular "disruption" 

I mean, it's part of what made the system ripe for something like uber to sweep in, but we're getting really narrow.  My transit diatribe was meant to be just one example of how there are measurable harms being caused by these companies coming in and making the deliberate decision to operate at a loss long term.  That disrupting the markets is something tech folks talk about as if it's always good thing because we all need to be shaken up, and OCCASIONALLY I agree, in narrow scope.  But in the meantime systems intended to operate for the public good, which are already at a disadvantage for all the reasons goldengirlz mentioned, were taking hits while decisions makers chased the new hotness and now people left without other options are screwed and we've wasted time and money on this shit.

All my examples are transportation related rather than doordash related because this is what I do, but I assume there are similar market distortions happening in food service and delivery that are being born in large part by small business owners. and now that money propping up the system is going away, and then what?  

it's just...icky. Ethically questionable.  Like, we all hate walmart because they undercut existing businesses and drive them out of business (and have other icky practices, but that's a biggie), but I rarely hear people talk about uber and lyft in the same sense.  But it's the same thing.  Opening a new business and expecting to operate in the red while you get up and running for a while is one thing, but we're WELL past that. 

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2022 8:35:11 GMT -5 wawa said:

it's just...icky. Ethically questionable.  Like, we all hate walmart because they undercut existing businesses and drive them out of business (and have other icky practices, but that's a biggie), but I rarely hear people talk about uber and lyft in the same sense.  But it's the same thing.  Opening a new business and expecting to operate in the red while you get up and running for a while is one thing, but we're WELL past that. 

In our country we really romanticize entrepreneurship, and we like the idea that someone can make it big with a “good idea” and “hard work.” We like it so much that we sweep under the carpet any of the bad that came come from it. We like the IDEA of this, but interestingly I think we all have a much less rosy view of people like Sam Walton, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, and Elon Musk.

Also, I think most Americans at least don’t realize or care that these companies operate at a loss, and are too short-sighted (or don’t care) to notice the second- and third-order affects of “market disruption.” All most people care about is that they can post-mate a banana or get home drunk for cheap.

[krystee]

Anecdote alert: My coworker just got an Uber home for the airport (30 minute ride), and it was $178 with tip. I was very thankful he told me because I have to do a similar ride for a vacation next week and just booked a taxi for less than one-third the price.

[icedcoffee]

Jun 14, 2022 15:28:03 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

. As soon as Uber started, there were articles about how it decimated local transportation like cabs, etc. 

I'm sympathetic to how hard cab companies were hit, but part of the reason I immediately switched to Uber vs cabs is because as someone who lives in the suburbs of a major city I could NEVER find a cab who was willing to take me all the way home.  I used to have to same I'm in [XYZ city a mile closer] and then say "oh...I'm just a little further down the street" until they got me home.  It was an ordeal and annoying.  So yeah...uber was much easier.

Add that to "my meter is broken" or "my CC machine is broken" and...uber was an easy decision.

Now I do try to use my local cab company when I'm able as those things aren't done by them as much anymore.

[goldengirlz]

As long as we’re casting blame, let’s not forget the venture capital firms that funded these companies, and deregulation of the financial industry that enabled the VC firms.

Basically, it’s the Republicans’ fault. Again.

[sent]

So what was Uber trying to disrupt with their cheap VC money all these years? Cab companies already knew taking people out to the far flung areas of Queens was not the most profitable route. If you knew you needed a ride to a remote address in Queens, you arranged a car service ahead of time which of course kills the spontaneity of getting a cheap ride home at the end of a drunken night. Now it sounds like the cheap fares are over and Uber is also charging a premium for the customers trying to go out to those places. Uber/Lyft did make it more precise to find the passenger and presented a choice with the kind of vehicle they sent through their technology. They likely challenged cab companies to independently update their old-school call methods once Uber came on the scene.

[wawa]

Jun 15, 2022 12:25:19 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

As long as we’re casting blame, let’s not forget the venture capital firms that funded these companies, and deregulation of the financial industry that enabled the VC firms.

Basically, it’s the Republicans’ fault. Again.

I mean...I think most of the blame lands on those factors. Plus the just pain in the ass tech bros who come up with this stuff, feel no need to actually turn a profit and just chase VC money.  

it's a fucked up system.

[goldengirlz]

Jun 15, 2022 12:43:10 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jun 15, 2022 12:25:19 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

As long as we’re casting blame, let’s not forget the venture capital firms that funded these companies, and deregulation of the financial industry that enabled the VC firms.

Basically, it’s the Republicans’ fault. Again.

I mean...I think most of the blame lands on those factors. Plus the just pain in the ass tech bros who come up with this stuff, feel no need to actually turn a profit and just chase VC money.  

it's a fucked up system.

Well, sure tech bros are annoying. But some 25 year old coding in his garage couldn’t get anywhere without the deep pockets of Sand Hill Road. Plus, the fact that they’re all “tech bros” is also telling, because plenty of good ideas come from women (and BIPOC) but they’re significantly less likely to get funded; everyone is chasing the caricature of the next Mark Zuckerberg and if you’re not a skinny white dude under the age of 30, you’re nothing here.

[Velar Fricative]

Jun 15, 2022 12:25:19 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

As long as we’re casting blame, let’s not forget the venture capital firms that funded these companies, and deregulation of the financial industry that enabled the VC firms.

Basically, it’s the Republicans’ fault. Again.

Soooooooo should we blame Shark Tank? Personally I'd like to, because I feel like that's part of the reason why stupid new GAMECHANGING!!!! products keep showing up on my FB feed. Leave me alone, I just want to buy perfectly nice bras and bathing suits from regular stores (the two most common things I tend to see on my feed). 

[msmerymac]

Jun 15, 2022 11:11:36 GMT -5 krystee said:

Anecdote alert: My coworker just got an Uber home for the airport (30 minute ride), and it was $178 with tip. I was very thankful he told me because I have to do a similar ride for a vacation next week and just booked a taxi for less than one-third the price.

I paid about the same a month ago, but it was an 80 minute ride to the airport. 

[goldengirlz]

Jun 15, 2022 13:27:53 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Jun 15, 2022 12:25:19 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

As long as we’re casting blame, let’s not forget the venture capital firms that funded these companies, and deregulation of the financial industry that enabled the VC firms.

Basically, it’s the Republicans’ fault. Again.

Soooooooo should we blame Shark Tank? Personally I'd like to, because I feel like that's part of the reason why stupid new GAMECHANGING!!!! products keep showing up on my FB feed. Leave me alone, I just want to buy perfectly nice bras and bathing suits from regular stores (the two most common things I tend to see on my feed). 

Tangent, but have you watched The Dropout, the lightly fictionalized series about the Theranos scandal?

I don’t think I can point to a show that does a better job of exploring the insidiousness of Silicon Valley.

I can’t tell if your question is tongue in cheek, but I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with people wanting to be entrepreneurs, even if their products are dumb (let markets decide that.) But only VC firms can underwrite the kind of losses that big companies like Uber and Peloton and DoorDash were making year over year over year. And yet somehow, despite all those losses, everyone was making bank.

ETA: At any rate, the party is coming to an end. There have been a huge number of layoffs happening in VC-backed tech. With interest rates going up, borrowing money is no longer “cheap,” which means VC are pulling back, their portfolio companies actually need to stop the bleeding, and prices are going up for consumers. That’s basically the point of the story.

The question now is: if an Uber is the same price as a cab, is the Uber interface better than dealing with traditional cab companies? That’s what we’ll find out in the coming months.

[wildrice]

Jun 15, 2022 11:11:36 GMT -5 krystee said:

Anecdote alert: My coworker just got an Uber home for the airport (30 minute ride), and it was $178 with tip. I was very thankful he told me because I have to do a similar ride for a vacation next week and just booked a taxi for less than one-third the price.

That's insane! They are going to go out of business if they keep charging crazy rates... So I don't really understand the long game. I don't think you can lure people in with a low price and then suddenly raise your prices 500% and expect that to be sustainable.

Interestingly to me, we were just in Croatia and used Uber a lot and it was still really cheap there. A 40 minute ride to the airport was about $30, and we had several shorter rides around Dubrovnik that were under $10. So is it just in the US that it is expensive now, or will they eventually jack up prices everywhere?

My H was going to take an Uber home from the airport tomorrow, since work is paying, but I don't think we can in good faith have them pay almost $200 when I could pick him up with less than an hour round trip of driving.

[krystee]

wildrice both my coworker and I are going at 2 am, so hopefully there was surge pricing because of the lack of drivers at that hour. Maybe it won’t be so crazy for your H! But even if it is, I’d let work pay rather than drive an hour!

[erbear]

Is this where I admit I’ve never used Uber or Lyft?
I’d love to say it’s because of all this but it’s not — it’s because I’m too scared (Also because I live in a city and it’s easy to get cabs or take the train but mostly fear)

[Velar Fricative]

We have local car services that have apps, so I’ve just used the company I like most. Don’t really need Uber here even though we don’t get yellow cabs in this borough. So I think if local companies can leverage tech like Uber did (even if it’s not as nice and shiny as Uber), they can compete.

[babsbunny]

Jun 15, 2022 15:54:20 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I don’t think I can point to a show that does a better job of exploring the insidiousness of Silicon Valley.

Does the HBO show Silicon Valley not also show the insidiousness? (Maybe it's more the ridiculousness.)

[goldengirlz]

Jun 15, 2022 21:30:33 GMT -5 babsbunny said:

Jun 15, 2022 15:54:20 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I don’t think I can point to a show that does a better job of exploring the insidiousness of Silicon Valley.

Does the HBO show Silicon Valley not also show the insidiousness? (Maybe it's more the ridiculousness.)

Definitely more the ridiculousness!

I will say the first season is spot on about what’s it like to work at one of the tech giants — the writers came from that world. Like down to the scenes where what’s-his-name is hanging out on the roof all day ha. Then it kind of goes off the rails a bit.

But The Dropout does a much better job of taking a critical eye to the industry whereas Silicon Valley is mining it for jokes.

[ESF]

People are working longer hours than ever before. In their spare time, people fight with insurance companies, banks, student loan servicers, cable and cell phone providers, credit reporting agencies, and every other kind of service. We expect people in our communities to volunteer and stand up for injustices and help get good people elected. And wash out plastic containers for recycling and not buy products with too much waste even if they save time and make energy efficient home improvements and look for sustainable fashion and @@ cloth diaper and go to the farmers market.

Our society is overwhelmed and run down.

I can't work up anger for the people who choose to have groceries delivered or use Uber in the face of all this absolute chaos and demands of modern life.   

Not to mention the people who use these apps because the old ways shut them out. From what I understand, it's much easier to get an Uber or Lyft as a black man than it is to catch a cab.  Peloton allows people who have been fat shamed out of exercises classes options to move and feel good about themselves. 

The problem is that to the extent we ever had a functioning democracy, it's been crumbling before our very eyes. Uber would have had to reform a decade ago if there was a political and legal system capable of forcing it to pay its drivers appropriately, and there'd be no problem.  If arbitration was not the disaster it is now, victims of these companies would have legal recourse against them. 

Blaming people for not exercising personal responsibility contributes to the public perception that regulators should just let businesses be businesses. The more we blame individual choices, the less those with the ability to help have an incentive to stick their necks out.  It's why it's hard to take down MLMs - people think stupid people deserve it, so no AG is going to use political capital. 

[karinothing]

Jun 15, 2022 19:44:59 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

We have local car services that have apps, so I’ve just used the company I like most. Don’t really need Uber here even though we don’t get yellow cabs in this borough. So I think if local companies can leverage tech like Uber did (even if it’s not as nice and shiny as Uber), they can compete.

Right. This is my thing. I never used uber or lyft because of the price. I used them because of the app. I was looking to see if some of the cab companies had apps and they do but the reviews say the cabs don't show up, which isn't helpful. I also started using uber/lyft because when they started cabs in DC didn't take CCs.

[eddy]

In March on vacation we prescheduled an Uber for 4 am to catch our flight home. The driver ditched us 5 min before arrival and there were no other drivers available. We called a cab and the guy was there in 20 minutes. The dispatcher was extremely helpful. Cab driver called us to confirm he was on his was. It was hectic but we made our flight. Also it cost just the same.

So that was the end of using Uber (or Lyft) for us. Absolutely no accountability for leaving us high and dry.

[basilosaurus]

Jun 15, 2022 18:19:58 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Interestingly to me, we were just in Croatia and used Uber a lot and it was still really cheap there. A 40 minute ride to the airport was about $30, and we had several shorter rides around Dubrovnik that were under $10. So is it just in the US that it is expensive now, or will they eventually jack up prices everywhere?

We don't have uber here, but we have Grab which I believe is headquartered in Singapore. It's still insanely cheap, but I think that's more a factor of USD being so strong with LCOL. I've used it in Thailand, Myanmar, Vietnam, Malaysia, and will soon in Sing. Sing is the only outlier on the cheap scale, but they do have public transport to compete with, so who knows.

Uber sort of exists in Turkey. It's a partnership with yellow taxis. Usually it was easiest for me to just hail a taxi as when I'd order and uber they cancel often. Waiting in the snow for an hour with a dozen cancellations was pure hell. It was still cheap, though, but no different than taxi from the street.