The Millennial lifestyle is getting costlier

[ESF]

Jun 16, 2022 5:42:24 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Jun 15, 2022 19:44:59 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

We have local car services that have apps, so I’ve just used the company I like most. Don’t really need Uber here even though we don’t get yellow cabs in this borough. So I think if local companies can leverage tech like Uber did (even if it’s not as nice and shiny as Uber), they can compete.

Right. This is my thing. I never used uber or lyft because of the price. I used them because of the app. I was looking to see if some of the cab companies had apps and they do but the reviews say the cabs don't show up, which isn't helpful. I also started using uber/lyft because when they started cabs in DC didn't take CCs.

Yeah the apps are also super helpful if you need them for work. They save so much time and admin overhead, and make it easier for employees who don’t have to use cash to float work expenses.

[sent]

Jun 16, 2022 6:51:11 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jun 16, 2022 5:42:24 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Right. This is my thing. I never used uber or lyft because of the price. I used them because of the app. I was looking to see if some of the cab companies had apps and they do but the reviews say the cabs don't show up, which isn't helpful. I also started using uber/lyft because when they started cabs in DC didn't take CCs.

Yeah the apps are also super helpful if you need them for work. They save so much time and admin overhead, and make it easier for employees who don’t have to use cash to float work expenses.

The old way to approach this problem would be to develop the app and sell it to the taxi companies. It appears the VC way was to become the taxi company.

[fumbalina]

Jun 14, 2022 15:35:35 GMT -5 sent said:

Jun 14, 2022 14:30:46 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

So while all of that was happening in the background, it was easy for a 20-something in Nashville to spend a few bucks to get home after a night of drinking instead of having more drunk drivers on the road.

In short, for consumers, it’s a bit more complicated than whether someone made “bad choices.”

I made my drunk then-boyfriend (now spouse) walk home from downtown Nashville one day in the pre-Uber era. I was mad at him because I had stayed sober so I could drive. Nashville actually has really nice sidewalks in its downtown area that cover a lot of miles but I hardly saw people walking when I lived there. Cabs have always been around, even in Nashville.  We as a society just like cheap prices to enjoy what we think are the nice things we deserve, like a ride home from someone else we paid to be a cheap designated driver.

Cabs have always existed but their service kind of drove this desire. I had a friend at an apartment with a TBI so she could not drive. She would order a cab and it would take 8 hours for them to dispatch anyone. I found this especially odd, since another neighbor was a cab driver, but no matter the day or time, it was a huge investment in time. She would pay me to take her to the store because I was available quicker. 

[dontlook]

Jun 15, 2022 22:34:07 GMT -5 ESF said:

People are working longer hours than ever before. In their spare time, people fight with insurance companies, banks, student loan servicers, cable and cell phone providers, credit reporting agencies, and every other kind of service. We expect people in our communities to volunteer and stand up for injustices and help get good people elected. And wash out plastic containers for recycling and not buy products with too much waste even if they save time and make energy efficient home improvements and look for sustainable fashion and @@ cloth diaper and go to the farmers market.

Our society is overwhelmed and run down.

I can't work up anger for the people who choose to have groceries delivered or use Uber in the face of all this absolute chaos and demands of modern life.   

Not to mention the people who use these apps because the old ways shut them out. From what I understand, it's much easier to get an Uber or Lyft as a black man than it is to catch a cab.  Peloton allows people who have been fat shamed out of exercises classes options to move and feel good about themselves. 

The problem is that to the extent we ever had a functioning democracy, it's been crumbling before our very eyes. Uber would have had to reform a decade ago if there was a political and legal system capable of forcing it to pay its drivers appropriately, and there'd be no problem.  If arbitration was not the disaster it is now, victims of these companies would have legal recourse against them. 

Blaming people for not exercising personal responsibility contributes to the public perception that regulators should just let businesses be businesses. The more we blame individual choices, the less those with the ability to help have an incentive to stick their necks out.  It's why it's hard to take down MLMs - people think stupid people deserve it, so no AG is going to use political capital. 

But how much of this feeling “run down” is on us? Obviously not all of it. We can’t do anything about the pandemic and work schedules but how many of us take on all the things and then feel overwhelmed so we start outsourcing everything? Notice I’m saying us and we because I’m a part of this. We can’t keep blaming everyone else but our collective selves when our mantra is “throw money at it”. There’s room for all of us to share the blame.

[karinothing]

Jun 16, 2022 7:38:05 GMT -5 sent said:

Jun 16, 2022 6:51:11 GMT -5 ESF said:

Yeah the apps are also super helpful if you need them for work. They save so much time and admin overhead, and make it easier for employees who don’t have to use cash to float work expenses.

The old way to approach this problem would be to develop the app and sell it to the taxi companies. It appears the VC way was to become the taxi company.

I mean DC had to basically force cabs to take credit cards. AND they do have apps now and still don't dispatch cabs. I don't know. I would have a hunch that cab companies weren't receptive to buying an app, but who knows.

[ESF]

Jun 16, 2022 7:56:09 GMT -5 dontlook said:

Jun 15, 2022 22:34:07 GMT -5 ESF said:

People are working longer hours than ever before. In their spare time, people fight with insurance companies, banks, student loan servicers, cable and cell phone providers, credit reporting agencies, and every other kind of service. We expect people in our communities to volunteer and stand up for injustices and help get good people elected. And wash out plastic containers for recycling and not buy products with too much waste even if they save time and make energy efficient home improvements and look for sustainable fashion and @@ cloth diaper and go to the farmers market.

Our society is overwhelmed and run down.

I can't work up anger for the people who choose to have groceries delivered or use Uber in the face of all this absolute chaos and demands of modern life.   

Not to mention the people who use these apps because the old ways shut them out. From what I understand, it's much easier to get an Uber or Lyft as a black man than it is to catch a cab.  Peloton allows people who have been fat shamed out of exercises classes options to move and feel good about themselves. 

The problem is that to the extent we ever had a functioning democracy, it's been crumbling before our very eyes. Uber would have had to reform a decade ago if there was a political and legal system capable of forcing it to pay its drivers appropriately, and there'd be no problem.  If arbitration was not the disaster it is now, victims of these companies would have legal recourse against them. 

Blaming people for not exercising personal responsibility contributes to the public perception that regulators should just let businesses be businesses. The more we blame individual choices, the less those with the ability to help have an incentive to stick their necks out.  It's why it's hard to take down MLMs - people think stupid people deserve it, so no AG is going to use political capital. 

But how much of this feeling “run down” is on us? Obviously not all of it. We can’t do anything about the pandemic and work schedules but how many of us take on all the things and then feel overwhelmed so we start outsourcing everything? Notice I’m saying us and we because I’m a part of this. We can’t keep blaming everyone else but our collective selves when our mantra is “throw money at it”. There’s room for all of us to share the blame.

I don’t think the solution here is for people to give up a hobby or volunteer work or caring for elderly family members so they have more time to be one-person attorneys general.

Sure, it is good to be a conscious consumer! But the state of the world will not be fixed through personal responsibility. The structural forces at work are too huge. I don’t think we should give up, but put the focus on the institutions that are failing us in this moment. Blaming people for biting on tainted bait feels like trying to kill a spider when your house is burning down.

Unless it’s personal responsibility to vote and organize and volunteer. Then blame away.

[sent]

Jun 16, 2022 8:01:10 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Jun 16, 2022 7:38:05 GMT -5 sent said:

The old way to approach this problem would be to develop the app and sell it to the taxi companies. It appears the VC way was to become the taxi company.

I mean DC had to basically force cabs to take credit cards. AND they do have apps now and still don't dispatch cabs. I don't know. I would have a hunch that cab companies weren't receptive to buying an app, but who knows.

They probably were not receptive to technology, I can totally see that. Eventually they would have to change or go out of business. My big gripe with these “disruptive” companies is that they have an army of lawyers to shield them from breaking the law. And I’m pretty sure they broke a lot of taxi and livery licensing laws or interpreted the laws in ways that they were not intended.

[ESF]

Jun 16, 2022 8:01:10 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Jun 16, 2022 7:38:05 GMT -5 sent said:

The old way to approach this problem would be to develop the app and sell it to the taxi companies. It appears the VC way was to become the taxi company.

I mean DC had to basically force cabs to take credit cards. AND they do have apps now and still don't dispatch cabs. I don't know. I would have a hunch that cab companies weren't receptive to buying an app, but who knows.

Yeah I don’t think we should assume that no efforts were ever made to reform traditional actors.

A friend of a friend once designed software that would work with the bay area’s metro ticket terminals to make it easier to dispense tickets in amounts that would not result in fare balances. They declined and continued to use a system that would allow them to hold on to all these unpaid balances on lost tickets and cards.

Nobody would argue that people should stop taking metro to force taxpayers to fund it properly so they wouldn’t have to try to raise funds by using ticketing systems designed to generate revenue shortfall.

This is what I mean by a system failure that is bigger than individual choices. It’s a losing game of whack a mole.

[ESF]

Jun 16, 2022 8:27:43 GMT -5 sent said:

Jun 16, 2022 8:01:10 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I mean DC had to basically force cabs to take credit cards. AND they do have apps now and still don't dispatch cabs. I don't know. I would have a hunch that cab companies weren't receptive to buying an app, but who knows.

They probably were not receptive to technology, I can totally see that. Eventually they would have to change or go out of business. My big gripe with these “disruptive” companies is that they have an army of lawyers to shield them from breaking the law. And I’m pretty sure they broke a lot of taxi and livery licensing laws or interpreted the laws in ways that they were not intended.

Yes that is right.

I’m a consumer protection lawyer and deal with these armies of lawyers every day. It’s a literal battle of David v Goliath. For every one lawyer on our side, they have 5. And more often than not, when we settle or win cases, judges cut our fees and say we overstaffed cases or that our hourly rates (which are a fraction of theirs) are too high. So it’s impossible for us to ever match their armies. Again, these are structural forces.

[dontlook]

Jun 16, 2022 8:19:21 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jun 16, 2022 7:56:09 GMT -5 dontlook said:

But how much of this feeling “run down” is on us? Obviously not all of it. We can’t do anything about the pandemic and work schedules but how many of us take on all the things and then feel overwhelmed so we start outsourcing everything? Notice I’m saying us and we because I’m a part of this. We can’t keep blaming everyone else but our collective selves when our mantra is “throw money at it”. There’s room for all of us to share the blame.

I don’t think the solution here is for people to give up a hobby or volunteer work or caring for elderly family members so they have more time to be one-person attorneys general.

Sure, it is good to be a conscious consumer! But the state of the world will not be fixed through personal responsibility. The structural forces at work are too huge. I don’t think we should give up, but put the focus on the institutions that are failing us in this moment. Blaming people for biting on tainted bait feels like trying to kill a spider when your house is burning down.

Unless it’s personal responsibility to vote and organize and volunteer. Then blame away.

Yes but I’m happy we have some posts in which we are acknowledging that we have some responsibility in this mess. It’s not an either or. So many institutions/regulations/politicians have failed us but we also have failed us. We fail by not asking more questions, doing more digging and wholesale buying bullshit such as Uber etc. This is an area we can do a little about. When so much is out of our control I think it’s even more important that we do what little we can when we can. As a black woman in America, I’ll rant with you all day about the many many ways this country as failed us and continues to do so with smiles and hair pats. I just dont want to drown out the voices that are saying, “wake up and do your part” because I think that’s important to discuss too.

[pixy0stix]

Jun 16, 2022 8:56:44 GMT -5 dontlook said:

Jun 16, 2022 8:19:21 GMT -5 ESF said:

I don’t think the solution here is for people to give up a hobby or volunteer work or caring for elderly family members so they have more time to be one-person attorneys general.

Sure, it is good to be a conscious consumer! But the state of the world will not be fixed through personal responsibility. The structural forces at work are too huge. I don’t think we should give up, but put the focus on the institutions that are failing us in this moment. Blaming people for biting on tainted bait feels like trying to kill a spider when your house is burning down.

Unless it’s personal responsibility to vote and organize and volunteer. Then blame away.

Yes but I’m happy we have some posts in which we are acknowledging that we have some responsibility in this mess. It’s not an either or. So many institutions/regulations/politicians have failed us but we also have failed us. We fail by not asking more questions, doing more digging and wholesale buying bullshit such as Uber etc. This is an area we can do a little about. When so much is out of our control I think it’s even more important that we do what little we can when we can. As a black woman in America, I’ll rant with you all day about the many many ways this country as failed us and continues to do so with smiles and hair pats. I just dont want to drown out the voices that are saying, “wake up and do your part” because I think that’s important to discuss too.

Exactly. I'll use the example of climate change - there are many and vast forces against us and fixing climate change. However, in the US, our lifestyle is driving climate change and influences many other parts of the world. For example, our red meat consumption is out of control, and we've now influenced other cultures around to world to see red meat consumption as something good that shows the person's wealth. That's clearly something we, good average Americans, have done and it's killing our climate. And y'all, it's not the ranching/red meat lobby that continues doing this to us. Even our own doctors are pleading with us to not eat red meat. America is run on capitalism, and we can, and have, changed many things by saying we're not going to give our money to things.

[pixy0stix]

Jun 16, 2022 8:19:21 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jun 16, 2022 7:56:09 GMT -5 dontlook said:

But how much of this feeling “run down” is on us? Obviously not all of it. We can’t do anything about the pandemic and work schedules but how many of us take on all the things and then feel overwhelmed so we start outsourcing everything? Notice I’m saying us and we because I’m a part of this. We can’t keep blaming everyone else but our collective selves when our mantra is “throw money at it”. There’s room for all of us to share the blame.

I don’t think the solution here is for people to give up a hobby or volunteer work or caring for elderly family members so they have more time to be one-person attorneys general.

Sure, it is good to be a conscious consumer! But the state of the world will not be fixed through personal responsibility. The structural forces at work are too huge. I don’t think we should give up, but put the focus on the institutions that are failing us in this moment. Blaming people for biting on tainted bait feels like trying to kill a spider when your house is burning down.

Unless it’s personal responsibility to vote and organize and volunteer. Then blame away.

I have more to say about this. We all, here, want workers to be paid a just wage. None of these apps have *ever* paid a just wage to their workers. So you're living in a dichotomy saying, "I don't blame people for exploiting workers, because that makes their lives easier." And then saying, "Workers shouldn't be exploited, they need to be paid a living wage." You can't have your cake and eat it too. These apps and services don't work unless they're exploiting the people working for them. As it is, the apps themselves aren't making money, hence the original point of this thread. 

In conclusion, in a fair and just world where the big structural changes live, these apps would disappear permanently.

[wawa]

Thinking about it... I'm not feeling blame the average customers for something like Uber.

On the outside, it feels just like a new and better cab system. For the average person I don't expect them to be a policy nerd following all this stuff - You don't know they're operating at a loss. You don't know that they're being funded by f'd up VC money with zero regard for the trickle down effects. You don't really follow the regulatory stuff that was going on in the background as they came bulling into each new city forcing the issue (and even if you did, arguments can be made that this is a good thing because those systems are WAY bureaucratic and slow and stupid) And there was plenty of healthy debate within my industry between people who DO know those things about whether the net long term effects would be good or bad (maybe encourages lower car ownership? but is actually increasing VMT. Provides first/last mile connection to regional transit. Bleeds riders from local bus networks, etc). I've always been on the pessimistic side because I trust VC funded tech bros as far a I can throw them, and I feel...vindicated in that generally. But I don't think that people who felt the net effect was good, or only saw the surface effects where there's this awesome affordable handy new service and used it were...blameworthy anymore than I'm to blame for the ills of social media because I use Facebook to connect to my local running group and PTA.

I am happy to blame said VC system, tech bros, and people who worship at the cult of entrepreneurship who think those systems can do no wrong, and decision makers who decided the distortions caused by this shit were not an issue. But just like, rando human who just wants to get a ride home from the bar or to the airport...of course they use it.

[audette]

I dunno, wawa. I think we all sort of knew that Uber (and the others that followed) were pretty slimey, as far as companies went. Not because of VC funding, or tech bros, or such, but because they avoided responsibility for anything and everything they could, and actively pushed regulatory boundaries. While I'm not on the up and up with all regulations, Uber was _very_ pushy about entering new cities and new markets, and just ignored if there were regulations or laws against their operation in those spaces, figuring they could just win in court. And if they lost in court, it was a mess, because they had already been in the market for some time before they packed up shop and left after those court losses.

My memory is that it was pretty obvious they were underhanded and didn't give much of a damn about anyone or anything...

[goldengirlz]

Jun 16, 2022 8:27:43 GMT -5 sent said:

Jun 16, 2022 8:01:10 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I mean DC had to basically force cabs to take credit cards. AND they do have apps now and still don't dispatch cabs. I don't know. I would have a hunch that cab companies weren't receptive to buying an app, but who knows.

They probably were not receptive to technology, I can totally see that. Eventually they would have to change or go out of business. My big gripe with these “disruptive” companies is that they have an army of lawyers to shield them from breaking the law. And I’m pretty sure they broke a lot of taxi and livery licensing laws or interpreted the laws in ways that they were not intended.

There’s a whole book, called Super Pumped, on the all the laws they broke. Uber was a shitty company from the beginning.

The app is one thing and probably the best innovation they had. But the other piece of it was the sharing/gig economy — of course, they weren’t the only ones thinking about it (AirBNB is a year older than Uber).

If Uber had just created a more efficient way to order taxis, and a better rider experience, then I’d say good on them; that’s the free market. But what they created was another way of exploiting workers. And to me, that’s the problem. And that’s probably what ushered in all the downstream impacts people are talking about because then they weren’t just competing with cabs, but transportation infrastructure in general.

[Velar Fricative]

OMG, I can go on alllllll day about how much I fucking hate Airbnb.

[ESF]

Jun 16, 2022 9:40:46 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jun 16, 2022 8:19:21 GMT -5 ESF said:

I don’t think the solution here is for people to give up a hobby or volunteer work or caring for elderly family members so they have more time to be one-person attorneys general.

Sure, it is good to be a conscious consumer! But the state of the world will not be fixed through personal responsibility. The structural forces at work are too huge. I don’t think we should give up, but put the focus on the institutions that are failing us in this moment. Blaming people for biting on tainted bait feels like trying to kill a spider when your house is burning down.

Unless it’s personal responsibility to vote and organize and volunteer. Then blame away.

I have more to say about this. We all, here, want workers to be paid a just wage. None of these apps have *ever* paid a just wage to their workers. So you're living in a dichotomy saying, "I don't blame people for exploiting workers, because that makes their lives easier." And then saying, "Workers shouldn't be exploited, they need to be paid a living wage." You can't have your cake and eat it too. These apps and services don't work unless they're exploiting the people working for them. As it is, the apps themselves aren't making money, hence the original point of this thread. 

In conclusion, in a fair and just world where the big structural changes live, these apps would disappear permanently.

I hear you but at the same time, to me, it’s a little more complicated.

Lots of workers are mistreated in all sorts of ways. Restaurants and farms exploit immigrants and minimum wage for those industries is lower in some states and creates abusive but legal situations. Most consumer goods are made by people overseas under awful conditions - sometimes @ with child labor, like chocolate.

Mall retailers might pay minimum wage but there have been tons of reports about how they use scheduling systems that basically require people to exist in a permanent on call state, getting shifts canceled at the last minute (sometimes after traveling in) or being expected to show up on a moment’s notice.

For people who need short term cash, I can easily see why they turn to Uber or Door Dash for work over retailers or restaurants or any other number of places that comply with the law in paper. They can make their own hours, can work as much as they want, and don’t have to come to work if they @don’t have child care or have a sick kid.

It doesn’t mean I think Uber is a good company offering a valuable employment opportunities. I don’t love it and but use it and always tip 25%. It just means I think the choice to use it is not any more or less morally defensible than most of the things or services anyone buys in the modern economy.

We all should be trying to make some better choices. I agree with you that things like larger homes and gas guzzlers are absolutely areas where individuals can and should make better choices. And there’s an immediate impact - less energy gets used, which is good. But I don’t think any of us have completely pure standards and we just have to do the best we can.

[ESF]

Jun 16, 2022 11:54:29 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

OMG, I can go on alllllll day about how much I fucking hate Airbnb.

Sits in this corner.

You can pry my Instacart app out of my cold, dead hands, but I am anti Airbnb for life. Never used them, never will.

[sent]

wawa , I think people using Uber knew they were not clean and honest business folk. They were in the news a lot in the NYC metro for mostly negative things. I don't think it's fair to give the public a pass for not knowing.

But people didn't care because they were cheap. Very few care to stick to their guns and not use them when faced with the chance of saving money and I don't blame them. I can say that I did but it cost me a lot of time to take alternate transportation options just to stick it to Uber/Lyft. I also got nauseous riding for 40 - 60 minutes in a Honda Civic of a not great driver up and down the NJ highways and decided the time saved wasn't worth feeling like that. 

[tacokick]

Jun 16, 2022 8:43:18 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jun 16, 2022 8:27:43 GMT -5 sent said:

They probably were not receptive to technology, I can totally see that. Eventually they would have to change or go out of business. My big gripe with these “disruptive” companies is that they have an army of lawyers to shield them from breaking the law. And I’m pretty sure they broke a lot of taxi and livery licensing laws or interpreted the laws in ways that they were not intended.

Yes that is right.

I’m a consumer protection lawyer and deal with these armies of lawyers every day. It’s a literal battle of David v Goliath. For every one lawyer on our side, they have 5. And more often than not, when we settle or win cases, judges cut our fees and say we overstaffed cases or that our hourly rates (which are a fraction of theirs) are too high. So it’s impossible for us to ever match their armies. Again, these are structural forces.

And a lot of this could be eliminated if companies were actually monitored by the government and held to reasonable standards. Instead they keep cutting the staff that investigates complainants and does inspections. People are forced to sue companies and use the court system to get help or change things and it’s after something has already happened. It’s a strange adversarial situation that could be avoided in many cases by better oversight in the first place.

[sent]

Jun 16, 2022 11:58:09 GMT -5 ESF said:

You can pry my Instacart app out of my cold, dead hands, but I am anti Airbnb for life. Never used them, never will.

I don't know as much about Instacart. My understanding is they were offering a service that didn't really exist or it existed but was limited in the stores that offered it. And they were passing the higher costs on to the user wanting to use the service from the start. Wegmans never had home delivery and partners with Instacart if you want that service from Wegmans. Whereas for Shop Rite, they have their own home delivery service and it's been around for awhile. It may have become more popular with Instacart and COVID. 

But if they're just as bad as Uber and AirBnB, just tell me and I'll go google. 

[pixy0stix]

Jun 16, 2022 11:56:14 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jun 16, 2022 9:40:46 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I have more to say about this. We all, here, want workers to be paid a just wage. None of these apps have *ever* paid a just wage to their workers. So you're living in a dichotomy saying, "I don't blame people for exploiting workers, because that makes their lives easier." And then saying, "Workers shouldn't be exploited, they need to be paid a living wage." You can't have your cake and eat it too. These apps and services don't work unless they're exploiting the people working for them. As it is, the apps themselves aren't making money, hence the original point of this thread. 

In conclusion, in a fair and just world where the big structural changes live, these apps would disappear permanently.

I hear you but at the same time, to me, it’s a little more complicated.

Lots of workers are mistreated in all sorts of ways. Restaurants and farms exploit immigrants and minimum wage for those industries is lower in some states and creates abusive but legal situations. Most consumer goods are made by people overseas under awful conditions - sometimes @ with child labor, like chocolate.

Mall retailers might pay minimum wage but there have been tons of reports about how they use scheduling systems that basically require people to exist in a permanent on call state, getting shifts canceled at the last minute (sometimes after traveling in) or being expected to show up on a moment’s notice.

For people who need short term cash, I can easily see why they turn to Uber or Door Dash for work over retailers or restaurants or any other number of places that comply with the law in paper. They can make their own hours, can work as much as they want, and don’t have to come to work if they @don’t have child care or have a sick kid.

It doesn’t mean I think Uber is a good company offering a valuable employment opportunities. I don’t love it and but use it and always tip 25%. It just means I think the choice to use it is not any more or less morally defensible than most of the things or services anyone buys in the modern economy.

We all should be trying to make some better choices. I agree with you that things like larger homes and gas guzzlers are absolutely areas where individuals can and should make better choices. And there’s an immediate impact - less energy gets used, which is good. But I don’t think any of us have completely pure standards and we just have to do the best we can.

This is why people turn to MLMs, and society has gotten fairly good at pushing those out and know exactly how predatory they are. To wawa's point above, as soon as Uber really started taking over the market main stream newspapers were publishing fairly in depth articles about just how bad they were for drivers. The same goes for pretty much any gig industry job. The info was out there if people only took 5 min to read any newspaper, or even watch their local news.

[wildrice]

To the MLM point - does anyone know if driving or delivering for these apps has a start up cost for drivers?

I haven't used Uber or Lyft much since before the pandemic (except for on my recent vacation) but I do regularly use Instacart and occasionally Door Dash. I have mixed feelings about the morality around using all of them, but I have to some extent always assumed that if people weren't making money off of doing these things, they wouldn't keep doing them. I know a driver for Lyft isn't going to be making a livable salary with benefits - but I don't think that's what most drivers are looking for. I've chatted with a number of drivers over the years and they are typically people who work other more traditional jobs and just want to make some extra money. If making even $100 extra per week seems worth it to the drivers, is it a bad thing that they have the opportunity to do that? IDK. HOWEVER if there is a high cost to signing up to work with these services, I can see how people would not want to "waste" that investment and might keep going longer than they should to try to recoup their costs.

[pixy0stix]

Jun 16, 2022 13:53:28 GMT -5 wildrice said:

To the MLM point - does anyone know if driving or delivering for these apps has a start up cost for drivers?

I haven't used Uber or Lyft much since before the pandemic (except for on my recent vacation) but I do regularly use Instacart and occasionally Door Dash. I have mixed feelings about the morality around using all of them, but I have to some extent always assumed that if people weren't making money off of doing these things, they wouldn't keep doing them. I know a driver for Lyft isn't going to be making a livable salary with benefits - but I don't think that's what most drivers are looking for. I've chatted with a number of drivers over the years and they are typically people who work other more traditional jobs and just want to make some extra money. If making even $100 extra per week seems worth it to the drivers, is it a bad thing that they have the opportunity to do that? IDK. HOWEVER if there is a high cost to signing up to work with these services, I can see how people would not want to "waste" that investment and might keep going longer than they should to try to recoup their costs.

The costs are hidden - gas, insurance (you should change your insurance policy, much like if you are a delivery driver and no one does that), wear/tear maintenance on your car, perks (bottled water, etc.). Again, there's scores of articles out there that go through just what a gig driver makes. Hint, they spend a lot of money to drive. Although, like most MLMs, the drivers are only looking at what gets deposited in their banks and not the entire cost of the endeavor. One such article - www.cnbc.com/2019/02/08/how-much-it-can-cost-a-year-to-drive-for-apps-like-uber-lyft-and-juno.html

[sent]

wildrice, their target driver doesn't understand the process. One of my employees was stressing about money and wanted to drive for Lyft because it sounded like a good idea to her. She didn't take into account that she drove a lease and it probably wasn't allowed on top of the getting paid as a 1099 thing. I pointed out to her that she could just increase working her hours for me and make more money that way (she wasn't regularly working the max hours I allowed). If she needed more, she could babysit some older kids during the same hours she'd be doing Lyft and take home real cash without too much effort and no real risk to her car or driving record. 

She was swayed by their cool ads. 

[scm1011]

Jun 16, 2022 14:19:51 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jun 16, 2022 13:53:28 GMT -5 wildrice said:

To the MLM point - does anyone know if driving or delivering for these apps has a start up cost for drivers?

I haven't used Uber or Lyft much since before the pandemic (except for on my recent vacation) but I do regularly use Instacart and occasionally Door Dash. I have mixed feelings about the morality around using all of them, but I have to some extent always assumed that if people weren't making money off of doing these things, they wouldn't keep doing them. I know a driver for Lyft isn't going to be making a livable salary with benefits - but I don't think that's what most drivers are looking for. I've chatted with a number of drivers over the years and they are typically people who work other more traditional jobs and just want to make some extra money. If making even $100 extra per week seems worth it to the drivers, is it a bad thing that they have the opportunity to do that? IDK. HOWEVER if there is a high cost to signing up to work with these services, I can see how people would not want to "waste" that investment and might keep going longer than they should to try to recoup their costs.

The costs are hidden - gas, insurance (you should change your insurance policy, much like if you are a delivery driver and no one does that), wear/tear maintenance on your car, perks (bottled water, etc.). Again, there's scores of articles out there that go through just what a gig driver makes. Hint, they spend a lot of money to drive. Although, like most MLMs, the drivers are only looking at what gets deposited in their banks and not the entire cost of the endeavor. One such article - www.cnbc.com/2019/02/08/how-much-it-can-cost-a-year-to-drive-for-apps-like-uber-lyft-and-juno.html

But isn't that true of a lot of jobs? For example, paying for your commute and all that entails, purchasing and dry cleaning professional clothes, paying for regular hair cuts and dye jobs to look presentable when in a client-facing role, etc. I get that its not exactly the same, but no one is without job costs. 

[pixy0stix]

Jun 16, 2022 15:04:42 GMT -5 scm1011 said:

Jun 16, 2022 14:19:51 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

The costs are hidden - gas, insurance (you should change your insurance policy, much like if you are a delivery driver and no one does that), wear/tear maintenance on your car, perks (bottled water, etc.). Again, there's scores of articles out there that go through just what a gig driver makes. Hint, they spend a lot of money to drive. Although, like most MLMs, the drivers are only looking at what gets deposited in their banks and not the entire cost of the endeavor. One such article - www.cnbc.com/2019/02/08/how-much-it-can-cost-a-year-to-drive-for-apps-like-uber-lyft-and-juno.html

But isn't that true of a lot of jobs? For example, paying for your commute and all that entails, purchasing and dry cleaning professional clothes, paying for regular hair cuts and dye jobs to look presentable when in a client-facing role, etc. I get that its not exactly the same, but no one is without job costs. 

Short answer - no

Long answer - The costs involved with a "regular" job are much less a percentage of wages than what the gig drivers are accrue. Such as, your office doesn't depreciate because you're using it. This article goes into detail about the costs of the job, and concludes that with all the depreciation etc. the drivers are making at, or less, than minimum wage - www.ridester.com/uber-lyft-driver-costs-and-expenses/

[sent]

Jun 16, 2022 15:04:42 GMT -5 scm1011 said:

Jun 16, 2022 14:19:51 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

The costs are hidden - gas, insurance (you should change your insurance policy, much like if you are a delivery driver and no one does that), wear/tear maintenance on your car, perks (bottled water, etc.). Again, there's scores of articles out there that go through just what a gig driver makes. Hint, they spend a lot of money to drive. Although, like most MLMs, the drivers are only looking at what gets deposited in their banks and not the entire cost of the endeavor. One such article - www.cnbc.com/2019/02/08/how-much-it-can-cost-a-year-to-drive-for-apps-like-uber-lyft-and-juno.html

But isn't that true of a lot of jobs? For example, paying for your commute and all that entails, purchasing and dry cleaning professional clothes, paying for regular hair cuts and dye jobs to look presentable when in a client-facing role, etc. I get that its not exactly the same, but no one is without job costs. 

If you are paid as a W2 employee, you pay for all of that with your take home pay and your employer takes care of sending the taxes to the government.

In the "gig economy," you are paid as a 1099 and expected to save the taxes from the money deposited and pay them yourself at a later date. You are also supposed to deduct the costs of "running your business" and in this case, your business was driving people around. So you were a taxi driver but you weren't according to Uber. The people they targeted to be their drivers lived paycheck to paycheck. Are we realistically expecting them to have the money when the taxes come due? If we as Americans were disciplined savers, we wouldn't be paying for everything on payment plans. 

[ESF]

Jun 16, 2022 12:22:40 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jun 16, 2022 11:56:14 GMT -5 ESF said:

I hear you but at the same time, to me, it’s a little more complicated.

Lots of workers are mistreated in all sorts of ways. Restaurants and farms exploit immigrants and minimum wage for those industries is lower in some states and creates abusive but legal situations. Most consumer goods are made by people overseas under awful conditions - sometimes @ with child labor, like chocolate.

Mall retailers might pay minimum wage but there have been tons of reports about how they use scheduling systems that basically require people to exist in a permanent on call state, getting shifts canceled at the last minute (sometimes after traveling in) or being expected to show up on a moment’s notice.

For people who need short term cash, I can easily see why they turn to Uber or Door Dash for work over retailers or restaurants or any other number of places that comply with the law in paper. They can make their own hours, can work as much as they want, and don’t have to come to work if they @don’t have child care or have a sick kid.

It doesn’t mean I think Uber is a good company offering a valuable employment opportunities. I don’t love it and but use it and always tip 25%. It just means I think the choice to use it is not any more or less morally defensible than most of the things or services anyone buys in the modern economy.

We all should be trying to make some better choices. I agree with you that things like larger homes and gas guzzlers are absolutely areas where individuals can and should make better choices. And there’s an immediate impact - less energy gets used, which is good. But I don’t think any of us have completely pure standards and we just have to do the best we can.

This is why people turn to MLMs, and society has gotten fairly good at pushing those out and know exactly how predatory they are. To wawa's point above, as soon as Uber really started taking over the market main stream newspapers were publishing fairly in depth articles about just how bad they were for drivers. The same goes for pretty much any gig industry job. The info was out there if people only took 5 min to read any newspaper, or even watch their local news.

The MLM crowd is not the same as the Uber crowd. MLM people get taken in by the long game, and will spend months in the red. Uber workers see cash immediately and don’t think about the long game. Uber drivers are also not being used as pawns and earning money off of scamming new workers. It is possible to sign up for Uber and make your rent payment the next month. It is not possible to do that as an MLM participant.

Again, I’m not saying that Uber’s business model is good! I agree people get screwed. I just think these people are not getting more screwed than people who are promised hours and book @ child care and then have those hours taken from them.

So I don’t think people who don’t ride Uber are l morally superior people who those people buy other services that exploit workers in different ways. Sounds like you do - fine for you if you’ve made that calculation, but I think you need to accept that your line is just different. I find Airbnb to be morally abhorrent but I get others make different calculations about these things, because consumers can’t fix this without political will.

[pixy0stix]

Lord. When did wanting people to pay attention to what is fucking happening around them become thinking I'm morally superior? And to take some fucking responsibility in this?