Update in OP: FIL losing house due to not paying taxes

[applecrispy]

Deleted personal details

[wanderingback]

Well, for one there are other options outside of buying the house and essentially being the landlord. I have no interest in being a landlord so no way I would do that.

I think if your husband wants to help then you all COULD offer to pay X amount in rent per month for an apartment with the other sibling if it’s in your budget. Is your FIL working?

I have 2 wonderful parents so it’s kind of hard for me to imagine letting them be homeless IF I could afford to help out. However, someone I’m close with just cut off contact with their dad due to a long history of toxic behavior, so sometimes you need to put up clear boundaries.

My partner sometimes "loans" his family money which is fine with me, I know we’ll likely never get it back. So that’s fine with me, but I’d def want to have a larger conversation if this was going to be an ongoing expense.

[sadlebred]

I would not want to be FIL's landlord. Period. Also, you are NOT responsible in any way for StepMIL's kids and grandkids. From your description, they, presumably, are able-bodied and of sound mind and can get jobs. If they are not able to hold a job, the county/city social services should be of assistance.

I do like wanderingback's suggestion of paying X towards an apartment if your DH can get the other siblings to agree and they WANT to and are financially able to. Obviously, this would need to be paid directly to the landlord monthly. Everyone would have to agree on that, or FIL would quickly lose the apt.

Another option is for someone to take in FIL and MIL. There is no way in h*** I would do it, but it's an option.

[flygirl]

I’m guessing the adult children who live with FIL don’t pay any bills or rent? For this reason and the fact that he’s been borrowing money since 2015, I would never rent to them. You’ll never see a dime. He’s not changed his spending in decades and he won’t change now. He’s trying to manipulate you with the group texts saying he’s an idiot, but once he is sure he won’t lose the house, from what you’ve said, it will just go back to the way it was. Why can’t FIL, SMIL and the adult children go get a loan?

[bee20]

No, and I'd feel terrible about it but your husband has already helped many times, and having to do things like meet him at the gas station indicates to me any money you gave for rent or housing would just be met with a request for more. Another way to think about this is money issues are a common reason for divorce and you don't want to do something that would make your own situation unstable. Throwing money into the black hole that is your FIL's finances puts your own future and relationship at risk.

It's a bad situation, and if your husband wants to set up some kind of recurring bank transfer to his dad just to aleviate his guilt think about how much you can afford and what you're going to say when he inevitably asks for more. My answer would be different if he or the rest of the family were doing something to help themselves, but this is a bad pattern.

[krystee]

I was going to suggest paying the back taxes and selling the house so you’d get your money back and he’d get his equity, but it doesn’t sound like it could be sold or would have much equity in its current condition. If the land by itself is worth something significant, I might still consider that.

Why on earth would he liquidate a 401k to pay off an asset, only to not pay taxes and lose it entirely? I can’t even imagine your frustration level.

I absolutely would not buy a house in that condition with the plan of renting it. Since he has shown no improvement over the years, I would not step in and help unless the property is valuable and you can easily sell and get your and his cash back, which doesn’t sound like the case. (But if you do that, get all the legal paperwork in place with him agreeing to the sale in exchange for the back taxes and agreeing to pay you x from the proceeds).

[tacokick]

If it was a healthy relationship with a responsible adult then paying it off and renting the house to him would make sense. But that’s clearly not the case here.

Obviously no one wants someone else to be homeless. But we are talking about someone who can’t be trusted to fill up his tank with gas with gifted money and let his house rot. Sometimes you just need to look at the situation you are actually in and let go of what would be “ideal”.

Where are the stepmother’s family in this? Are there any who don’t live there? Could the younger generations living there find their own housing? It sounds like a lot of adults are living in one house and not paying any bills.

One idea would be to help find housing for as many as possible and pay your FIL’s deposit for a rental. At least you’d feel like you were doing something. I’m not sure what more you could reasonably do financially and for your own mental health. You do need to think of your own future, family and relationships. It’s difficult to manage two households when one isn’t paying the bills. It sounds like you have tried a lot of help and it was taken for granted. This is an on going issue and endless need. A quick fix isn’t going help IMO.

I’m glad at least one sibling is in agreement that you can’t keep bailing him out. If the other sibling isn’t, do they have any ideas how to help that don’t involve you becoming their landlord? If he doesn’t have much income is there some affordable housing list that you might get him on as a long term goal? Could you adopt some of his many pets? Is that something he might be willing to let you do to open up more housing opportunities?

I’m sorry you have to deal with this mess.

[applecrispy]

I'll try to answer everyone's questions: 


wanderingback , DH doesn't want to pay a portion of monthly rent because he feels like housing is a basic necessity and FIL should be paying that first (along with groceries, electric, etc) ahead of the frivolous spending. Which I can understand, he doesn't want to be on the hook for paying it forever because FIL will never be able to afford to buy a home again (this was the house DH and his sisters grew up in and FIL has no savings to his name to put money down on a house.) I feel the same as you- I cannot imagine not helping my family if they were in dire straits, but on the flip side, it would have to be an absolutely catastrophic event for my family to reach out for monetary help so I feel like the circumstances are much different. If we did help FIL financially we 100% know it would be a gift and we would never be repaid a dime of it. DH has said if he does help financially this time, afterwards he will cut off all contact from FIL because he will not do it again, regardless of the circumstances. (At this point in time we only see FIL at family events so DH really doesn't have a relationship with him anyway). 

sadlebred , Oh yes, if any of the kids steps up to help pay rent they'll be paying the landlord directly. Even DH's sister who wants to help doesn't trust FIL to actually pay the rent. If it were just FIL and not the pets/stepMIL/kids/grandkids DH said he would have considered letting him stay at our house for a specific set of time to help him save money to find an apartment for himself. FIL has made it clear he doesn't want to live without his pets/rest of family so that's not going to be an option for us. DH's sisters don't have room to spare for any of them. 

flygirl , It's a different living situation. FIL and stepMIL have completely separate finances due to both being burned in previous marriages. FIL is the only one on the deed to the house and takes care of (or is supposed to) all the housing bills (mortgage before it was paid off, taxes, electric, phones). StepMIL and her kids take care of all the other bills (groceries, heating, utilities, etc). It is split 70/30 since FIL was making more than stepMIL. So stepMIL and kids do take care of some of the bills but they are absolutely not contributing anything to their housing needs. FIL/StepMIL both have bankruptcies and their credit is shot because they don't pay any of their bills on time. StepMIL's kids do have jobs at the moment but they do not hold a job for very long before they get fired or quit. stepMIL's kids are both getting State assistance for the grandkids so at least the grandkids are fed/healthy. Absolutely none of them would ever be approved for any type of loan. Quite frankly, I'd be super surprised if any of them could pass a background/credit check to even rent. 

bee20 , when we first got married and were lending money to FIL, one of our first awful fights was over how much money we should lend FIL because we were broke ourselves and scraping together money for a down payment on a house. You're right, DH could give FIL some more money, maybe for a deposit on an apartment or something. Whether or not it needs to be a reoccurring amount we'd have to discuss. 

krystee , there is no value in the land- the house is in town and barely has a back yard. The house just needs to be bulldozed and someone can start over new. We had thought about buying the house just to let him stay in it because I just don't know how they are going to find someplace to rent. But he owes over $35,000 in back taxes plus whatever the house sells for at auction. It is absolutely not worth it. The 401k thing is such a mess- he cashed out over $50,000 and paid off his mortgage, his motorcycle and back taxes to the IRS (notice a trend?). His thought process was he's close to retirement age and he didn't want to have the mortgage payments when he retired. Why he didn't pay the property taxes too, I have no freaking idea. He's always been behind on the house's property taxes and I think it took him by complete surprise when the taxing authority had enough and finally took the steps to foreclose on the house. 

tacokick , FIL has burned basically all his bridges with family members because so many people have loaned him money over the years. StepMIL's other child has cut all contact with both of them so she absolutely will not help. StepMIL's family would help StepMIL and her kids/grandkids as long as FIL isn't in the picture. StepMIL and FIL have a very toxic relationship and StepMIL's family wants nothing to do with FIL. Our hope is that StepMIL and kids/grandkids move out into a family member's house and FIL is on his own. StepMIL and FIL were separated in the past over money issues and infidelity so this could be the straw that breaks their marriage. We're going to have to chat with FIL/stepMIL about rehoming some of the pets, they're not going to be able to find someplace that will rent to them with that many animals. Unfortunately all FIL's kids currently have their own pets and taking more in is not an option right now which absolutely breaks my heart because I'm a huge animal lover and cannot imagine being in a position where I'd have to give mine up. 

FIL actually quit his job about 2 months ago (another long story) so currently is unemployed so that's an issue as well. stepMIL and her 2 kids currently all have jobs but really can't afford rent on top of all their other bills. FIL only has his motorcycle to ride at the moment because his vehicle was repossessed a couple of months ago. (stepMIL and kids all have vehicles in their own names that he sometimes drives).  He's a bigger man and can't comfortably ride the motorcycle long distances and we're in a rural area so I'm not sure where he could find a job where this would be feasible. He's going to need a vehicle before the winter because you can't drive a motorcycle in New York in the winter. 

DH and his sisters and all the spouses are going to sit down tomorrow night and discuss things. DH and sister 1 don't want to budge but I have a feeling they will do SOMETHING out of guilt. Whether its put together a deposit for a rental or something else, I'm not sure. But you all have given me some great feedback of other scenarios to consider. And yes, out of the 3 siblings, DH and I are the most financially stable, we both have high paying jobs, we don't have children of our own (nor do we want to) and are also going to be starting a major home renovation in a week which is probably feeling like a slap in the face to FIL and everyone else involved. (Although to be fair, we've been planning on the renovation for over 5 years, have been saving for it and finally signed the contract this March to move forward with it). That couldn't be worse timing. 

Sister 2 hasn't given any concrete ideas of what exactly they want us to do to help but is now a pro at guilt tripping so we'll see how the family dinner goes tomorrow night  

[wise_rita]

You know the answer here. You might as well light a big 'ol pile of money on fire if you intend to bail him out of this.

This would in NO WAY be trying your hand at being a landlord. It would be...lighting a pile of money on fire.

[midwestmama]

applecrispy, I just want to say I'm sorry you're in this situation. I think paying a deposit on an apartment or rental would be a very kind gesture, but make sure to pay the landlord directly. Would your FIL be eligible for a section 8/low income apartment? (And I agree with others that StepMIL's adult children/grandkids need to find their own living situation.)

I certainly sympathize with you. My MIL also has made poor choices financially (e.g., buying vehicles she can't afford) and life in general since I've known her (almost 20 years). DH's grandpa (MIL's dad) has bailed her out on many financial messes, let her live with him and his wife for free for a while, and generally enabled her. Now grandpa wants to be done with doing anything for MIL (and wants DH to do everything), and now she's so used to getting help that she expects it. DH and I agree that we're not financially bailing MIL out like her dad has been doing. MIL needs to be responsible and accept consequences for her choices. DH has offered to do a budget for MIL, but for some reason, she refuses to show DH how she spends her money, and that is a huge red flag for any consideration to give her money.

And no need to feel guilty for being financially stable/successful. MIL has made some comments to me and DH over the years (we both work and have good incomes) basically insinuating that we should give some of our money to her, but we just try to ignore it. (If I trusted her at all, which I don't, she would be welcome to clean our house and I'd pay her for it and then she could have some of our money that way, but I know she would take that opportunity to go through all of our stuff/drawers/closets while we weren't looking.)

[laterz]

You giving him money now will not make him financially literate or responsible. It will never end. I understand the pull of this, but if you give, give what YOU are comfortable with, under terms YOU are comfortable with - it is not up to anyone else to decide what is appropriate. And if you decide not to give anything, that is perfectly reasonable also. Clearly, this isn't FILs first rodeo.

[simpsongal]

It sounds like there might be some mental health issues at play here. I’d consider helping on extremely controlled and limited terms. Has he ever done therapy or seen a doctor? The multiple animals and condition of the home along with other things you mentioned bring to mind hoarder tendencies. It might be worth consulting social services or a therapist yourselves on the best ways to help without enabling or undermining all your relationships.

I’m sorry, it sounds really hard.

[spinnaker5]

You’re not horrible people. You can be sorry for them but this isn’t on you/your H to fix (and as PPs have said, lighting more money on fire in an attempt to fix it isn’t suddenly going to make your FIL into a different person). I’m sorry.

ETA and having just read your update/answer post - yiiiikes; no way would I get involved any further. Just because “it’s faaaaaaaaamilyyyyy” does not obligate anyone to continue to enable adults who for years have behaved irresponsibly with the expectation of being bailed out. If there are mental health issues at play then the kids could look into support services there for sure, but enabling them out of guilt creates risks to your own financial and possibly marital health. Again, sorry you and your H (and his siblings) have to deal with this - it’s incredibly tough.  

[tacokick]

Oh man, thanks for answering some questions. What a mess. I really think the best thing to hope for is that the residents of the house all go there separate ways.

I honestly don’t know what you could do to help in the situation. I think a token paying the deposit on an apartment would be good and then I’d be done. At least you could feel like you did something. But I wouldn’t feel bad about being stable yourselves or not giving ongoing help.

There is no scenario where this really improves IMO unless he decides to take control over his own life. It also sounds like your husband has had enough and is at his breaking point of the situation so I’d take a big step back. It might be different if they were close but as-is, I’d let nature take its course a bit. It sounds harsh but at a certain point you can’t help all these people.


The good news is that at least some of them seem able bodied enough to work. I’d suggest they all try to get on some subsidized housing lists ASAP and move to a cheaper area. It doesn’t sound like they have jobs tying them to any one place so maybe taking advantage of that and starting over somewhere else might help??

I’m truly sorry you guys are sucked into all this! It’s great your husband was able to really create a life for himself and do well. I would not worry about what other people think about you living the life you worked for in this scenario at all.

[wanderingback]

You don’t need to justify your home renovations to anyone.

[flygirl]

I agree with wise_rita, after your update. Short of paying a landlord directly for a deposit, your H might as well light a pile of money on fire. There are 4 adults there…they need to figure it out. Let the kids get a place.

[dr.girlfriend]

I know it's really hard, but I think you and DH just need to keep your distance from this situation as much as possible. I skimmed some of the details but it's not like he got cancer and suddenly couldn't pay his taxes, or whatever ... he's got a long history of financial irresponsibility and doesn't seem motivated to change, and he's feeling the consequences of it.

My MIL and DH's sister were odd ducks. Neither of them were employed, and they spent all their time "ministering" to people on the phone. They were always on the verge of getting kicked out for not paying their rent. At first I thought I could help them sort themselves out, but in the end I realized that it was impossible. They barely had a spare dollar but they'd talk about buying and flipping houses (no credit or DIY skills), or day-trading stocks, or all these other crazy get-rich quick schemes. I developed a mantra of, "They got by okay for 30 years without me, they'll figure it out." And of course, as I stepped back, somehow they managed. When my MIL died we wondered what my SIL would do since she hadn't worked her whole life, and of course she did the craziest thing, because God told her to go to a totally random city, etc. We were stressing out, trying to find her cheap rooms so she wasn't sleeping in her car, etc. But she got a job and she managed to get by, and is actually doing quite well now.

Some people are disasters like that, but amazingly they tend to land on their feet. Your FIL is feeling the consequences of his actions, but his situation doesn't sound untenable. The adults and grandkids can take care of themselves, and he and his wife can achieve full employment and probably find their own small rental within their budget if they are practical about it. It's the "if they're practical about it" part that snags a lot of people up, but maybe this is the kick in the butt he needs from reality. I would definitely stay as far away as possible.

Sending you and your DH all the hair pats, because this stuff sucks.

ETA:  Of all the scenarios buying the house sounds like the worst, because then you're responsible for the condition of the place, making sure it meets code, repairs, etc. and saddled with an entire property you don't want.  Chipping in toward rent or a deposit at a new place is leagues better, but I honestly wouldn't do that either unless you felt it would be easiest on you guys to do it.

[dragon's breath]

If your husband does not want to contribute, I would 100% back him up on that decision (especially since I would not want to contribute at all myself). Anyone who tries to guilt trip can go get a second job to make more money to enable an entire other family.

At least with the The Ant and the Grasshopper, the Grasshopper finally learned to take care of stuff for himself first.

Almost no one wants to see family homeless, but it's hard to care more for people than they will care for themselves. I would not step in and be a landlord, or do anything that might create some kind of financial liability (I'd be careful and really figure out if there could be any financial backlash over directly providing rent money to a landlord. And even that might not be enough, so any landlord would probably want a cosigner for them as well.)

There may be some mental issues at play, but I'm assuming those are beyond the ability of you and your husband to handle. Throwing more money into a black hole would not help solve those issues. I'm not sure exactly what would, so at that point I'd look into seeking advice from social services or something.

I don't think you are awful people for not wanting to get entangled in this mess at all.

[ellipses84]

I thought you were going to ask about paying back taxes and I would probably do that…because that’s so much cheaper than the value of a house and easier than the issues you are dealing with. 😬 I would not buy the house and rent it out to them. That is a lot to ask of your adult children, and it sounds like there are 4 adults living there that can figure this problem out for themselves. I don’t think you’d see any return on your investment. You can offer them help, with boundaries. Refer them to community resources. Maybe give them a couple thousand dollars gift for a deposit on an apartment or RV, but don’t tie yourselves to them in any way financially (like co-signing) unless you are willing to pay for whatever it is in full.

[ECB]

The fact that there are 4 adults in that house, and they are turning to others to bail them out … nope. You are not monsters if you don’t help. You have tried in the past, you have been burned. You don’t owe anyone anything in this situation.

It’s the HEIGHT of selfishness that your FIL wants to keep pulling everyone around him down with him (which is what would happen if people just kept funneling money to him).

I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. But this man will only take take take. I’d stop giving him anything.

[ECB]

On the mental health front, i suspect that at a minimum - he’s a narcissist. And you all can’t help him on that front. And i also believe that throwing more money at him isn’t going he help either. This is who he is. He will keep taking as long as people keep giving.

[jlt19]

No. No way, no how. After many years of enabling him, you have all got to step back and realize he is an adult and has three other adults in the house that can make it work.

We are in a VERY similar situation with MIL. She and FIL divorced in 2000. She had a massive home and got great alimony for 10+ years. Squandered it all away while refusing to work. She’s a hoarder so refuses to go to an apartment. Has bounced around from rental to rental house because they keep getting sold (probably because she’s the most disgusting tenant they’ve ever dreamed of).

She finally had to get a job at Academy sports after years of refusing to work. That and SS is how she lives. She’s asked her three kids to buy/rent out a house to her and it’s always been a resounding no way.

They bought the woe is me for many years and enabled her, but finally had to take a stand. Doesn’t stop her from trying at times but you cannot help someone that won’t help themselves. I know that very bootstrappy of me, but sometimes it is what is needed.

[waverly]

You know the answer is no.

In terms of being landlords we had bought a house and for a minute I contemplated renting it to my dad. But his mental health was so bad he can’t maintain even being a renter. Like he lived somewhere for 3 months and never washed the sheets, couldn’t feed himself properly. He ended up in assisted living.

So sometimes these things have to play out for the right situation to come to light.

[niq]

I'm really sorry.

When this happened to my mom we were able to take out a line of credit to buy back the house. Because the government only cared about the taxes owed, we were eventually reimbursed what we paid minus the taxes owed and the superlien premium. Because it sold at auction for less than FMV, it made good financial sense. But the mechanics here vary a lot by state/county. Once it sells you could try working out something like that with the purchaser, basically you'd pay some sort of loan shark premium to keep the house. They might go for it rather than try to redevelop etc. You should only do this IF this is actually the thing that makes financial sense.

I have no idea what to do about his long term finances. Can his wife stay on top of money? Are any of the kids in a position to be financially responsible?

[rikki]

If he paid the house off, wouldn’t he be owed whatever they sell it for above and beyond the taxes? Unless it was a fairly cheap house, shouldn’t there be some money left at the end even after attorneys fees, etc.? Maybe I am misunderstanding what he did.

[applecrispy]

niq, H and his sisters at least agree that the house isn't worth buying at auction due to the squalid conditions. Honestly it needs to be completely gutted or torn down. I think the best path forward would be an apartment that doesn't allow pets and somewhere where he doesn't need to do the physical upkeep of the building itself. SMIL isn't completely horrible with money, she budgets for her portion of the bills, etc. The kids aren't financially responsible and I highly doubt FIL would accept budgeting help from anyone.

rikki, yes, if it sells for beyond what he owes for taxes he would get money back. I will be very surprised if the house sells for much over what he owes for taxes, if it sells at all. He may take that money and use it for a storage unit or rent money but I'm sure he'll blow the majority of it on something stupid because he feels badly about things. He definitely uses money to try and make himself and others feel better. The house is in FIL's name only and I don't see him giving any money to SMIL or the kids unless it's in the form of using it to rent a place for them all to live.

[definitelyO]

No - I would not help. your FIL has had many many opportunities and help along the way. there is nothing good to come from you pouring more money into his problems.

[jwright]

Wow - I'm sorry your family is going through this. I'm proud of your H for setting a boundary and sticking to it; that's easier said than done.

[Wallflower]

applecrispy, thanks for the update. And big, big kuddos to your husband for setting boundaries. That is such a difficult thing to do!

[Deleted]

I just saw your update. I am so sorry. Watching parents and their connection to stuff that is trash take priority over you as their child is devastating. I am so sorry your husband is going through this.