@@ August Covid

[kitty]

Aug 3, 2022 9:03:04 GMT -5 karinothing said:

What is the place we need to get to in order to move on and is it even possible to get there?

I do think advances to the vaccines and antivirals are probably the answer here ultimately but over the long term. Everyone likes to compare covid to “the flu” but we are not there yet with regard to vaccines and treatment options.

When we have a quadrivalent vaccine available to all that is picked by what variants (or variant-families maybe) are expected to circulate, multiple antiviral options with some that can help prophylactically after a known exposure to a high risk person, we will be more in range of “covid is just the flu.”

I’m hoping with mRNA vaccines we will be able to do better than the flu shot because we won’t need to pick the variants quite as far in advance).

However, this kind of medical advancement takes time and unfortunately will take longer if there is less financial support for the R&D, clinical testing, and ongoing surveillance that it will take to get us to this place.

[wanderingback]

Aug 3, 2022 10:33:57 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Aug 3, 2022 10:08:49 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

[/p][/quote]
sometimes norms change when the world changes.
The world has changed, and just like our hygiene norms changed when people learned germ theory or our street walking patterns changed when cars arrived, the long term norms should change with changing risks and changing information.
Some things that used to feel normal may go out of style just like cloth hand towels at public restrooms.[/quote]

Right and I am fine with a lot of that. But is a norm going to be isolating forever? I mean now that we know you could get covid every 28 days kids could miss a substantial amount of school and people a substantial amount of work. I don't think that is sustainable (my kids missed 5 weeks of school this year after getting covid twice). It could be a lot more this year. I don't think works are going to suddenly start having liberal sick leave or schools providing quality learning for the weeks the kids are going to be out. 

So sure, mask wearing can continue, better hygiene is always great. I just don't think the quarantine/isolation requirements are going to last forever and I am not sure it should (I am not a doctor, but don't see that as a big push from the medical community) [/quote]


The official guidance if one has the flu is to stay home for at least 24 hours after fever resolves and 4-5 days after symptom onset.
The recommendation to stay home when sick is nothing new and is good public health policy. Now whether people follow it or not is a different question, but it is indeed a reasonable recommendation for contagious viruses. Whenever I would diagnose someone with the flu I’d write them a school or work note for 1 week with instructions they could go back in 5 days if they were fever free and they were overall feeling better.

[curbsideprophet]

Aug 3, 2022 10:33:57 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Aug 3, 2022 10:08:49 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

[/p][/quote]
sometimes norms change when the world changes.
The world has changed, and just like our hygiene norms changed when people learned germ theory or our street walking patterns changed when cars arrived, the long term norms should change with changing risks and changing information.
Some things that used to feel normal may go out of style just like cloth hand towels at public restrooms.[/quote]

Right and I am fine with a lot of that. But is a norm going to be isolating forever? I mean now that we know you could get covid every 28 days kids could miss a substantial amount of school and people a substantial amount of work. I don't think that is sustainable (my kids missed 5 weeks of school this year after getting covid twice). It could be a lot more this year. I don't think works are going to suddenly start having liberal sick leave or schools providing quality learning for the weeks the kids are going to be out. 

So sure, mask wearing can continue, better hygiene is always great. I just don't think the quarantine/isolation requirements are going to last forever and I am not sure it should (I am not a doctor, but don't see that as a big push from the medical community) [/quote]

Mask requirements are few and far between. One way masking is not as effective, especially if only one or two people are wearing masks.

Preventative measures should keep kids in school more, yet most places seem to have abandoned all measures.

I don’t understand how ending isolation requirements helps anyone right now. Without requirements even more people will be out sick. Maybe once we have updated vaccines and transmission under control? That is certainly not the case right now.

[Jalapeñomel]

My school will go on pretending COVID was never a thing and I suspect that there will be no quarantine mandates, just 24 hour fever free on the honor system.

So schools will be a germ factory of flu, RSV, and now COVID.

[fortnightlily]

And there it is.

www.cnn.com/2022/08/03/health/cdc-covid-guidance/index.html

(CNN)The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is expected to update its guidance for Covid-19 control in the community, including in schools, in the coming days, according to sources familiar with the plan.

A preview of the plans obtained by CNN shows that the updated recommendations are expected to ease quarantine recommendations for people exposed to the virus and de-emphasize 6 feet of social distancing.

[Velar Fricative]

Well, we know about one change now - NYC will drop its school-based testing.

ny.chalkbeat.org/2022/8/3/23290957/nyc-end-school-covid-testing-program-pcr?_amp=true

I wish it could continue but I understand it’s really expensive. Now that they give out free home tests like candy, I think that’s sufficient anyway. Besides, while a decent amount of kids got tested, parental consent was required so of course the kids who were tested regularly (weekly when there were surges) were from families that believed covid wasn’t a hoax.

[beerlover]

DS (5) and I stopped at a friend's house yesterday to pick up hoagies that we bought for their daughter's fundraiser. I talked to my friend for about 3 minutes. He was inside the door and I was outside, and the door was basically half closed, he was holding it open and also trying to keep his dog away from me. He sent a message this morning that he tested positive. Wasn't feeling any symptoms when I talked to him, those started last night.

How concerned do you think I need to be about this short interaction? I don't feel super concerned, but we do have some upcoming plans (baseball game tonight, and dinner for my H's birthday Friday night). Would you just monitor for symptoms? Test before we go do anything? Yes we're vaxxed/boosted.

[hermione]

Aug 4, 2022 8:10:15 GMT -5 beerlover said:

DS (5) and I stopped at a friend's house yesterday to pick up hoagies that we bought for their daughter's fundraiser. I talked to my friend for about 3 minutes. He was inside the door and I was outside, and the door was basically half closed, he was holding it open and also trying to keep his dog away from me. He sent a message this morning that he tested positive. Wasn't feeling any symptoms when I talked to him, those started last night.

How concerned do you think I need to be about this short interaction? I don't feel super concerned, but we do have some upcoming plans (baseball game tonight, and dinner for my H's birthday Friday night). Would you just monitor for symptoms? Test before we go do anything? Yes we're vaxxed/boosted.

In this case we would monitor for symptoms and test on Day 5 (exposure being Day 0). 

[osulori]

Aug 4, 2022 8:34:35 GMT -5 hermione said:

Aug 4, 2022 8:10:15 GMT -5 beerlover said:

DS (5) and I stopped at a friend's house yesterday to pick up hoagies that we bought for their daughter's fundraiser. I talked to my friend for about 3 minutes. He was inside the door and I was outside, and the door was basically half closed, he was holding it open and also trying to keep his dog away from me. He sent a message this morning that he tested positive. Wasn't feeling any symptoms when I talked to him, those started last night.

How concerned do you think I need to be about this short interaction? I don't feel super concerned, but we do have some upcoming plans (baseball game tonight, and dinner for my H's birthday Friday night). Would you just monitor for symptoms? Test before we go do anything? Yes we're vaxxed/boosted.

In this case we would monitor for symptoms and test on Day 5 (exposure being Day 0). 

This is what we'd do as well.

[Susie]

DS is getting his 2nd Moderna dose tomorrow.  I just checked vaccines.gov to see if I could get a closer appointment for him, because we drove an hour last month to get his first dose at a Walgreens that had Moderna.

Sure enough, there were closer locations available, and the time slots went for days.  I had my choice for tomorrow of any :00, :20, :40 time basically all afternoon through about 7pm at a Walmart nearby.

While I'm happy to cut my drive tomorrow by a large margin, I don't think that bodes particularly well for uptake in the <5 age group.  Not surprising, but still bumming at the community level to see.

[melmaria]

Aug 4, 2022 9:38:03 GMT -5 Susie said:

DS is getting his 2nd Moderna dose tomorrow.  I just checked vaccines.gov to see if I could get a closer appointment for him, because we drove an hour last month to get his first dose at a Walgreens that had Moderna.

Sure enough, there were closer locations available, and the time slots went for days.  I had my choice for tomorrow of any :00, :20, :40 time basically all afternoon through about 7pm at a Walmart nearby.

While I'm happy to cut my drive tomorrow by a large margin, I don't think that bodes particularly well for uptake in the <5 age group.  Not surprising, but still bumming at the community level to see.

Yep.  This article is now 2 weeks old, but: www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/covid-19-vaccination-rates-among-children-under-5-have-peaked-and-are-decreasing-just-weeks-into-their-eligibility/

Overall, we find that vaccination has already peaked in the youngest age group, and is far below where 5-11 year-olds (who became eligible in November of last year) were at this point in their eligibility:

• As of July 20, approximately 544,000 children under the age of 5 had received at least one COVID-19 vaccine dose. This represents 2.8% of the approximately 19 million children in this age group. At a similar point in their vaccine roll-out, more than 5.3 million children ages 5-11 (18.5% of 5-11 year-olds) had received their first dose. (See Figure 1)
• Vaccinations peaked among those under 5 about two-weeks into their eligibility, even before the July 4 holiday. After a quick rise in vaccinations soon after they became eligible, the rate of vaccination (as measured by the 7-day rolling average of new doses administered) peaked at just over 28,000 on July 1. It then began to decrease and was about 13,000 on July 20. (See Figure 2).
• This peak is significantly below where their 5-11 counterparts were at a similar stage. While vaccinations also peaked among 5-11 year-olds about two-weeks into their eligibility, they peaked at 271,000 average daily doses; at that point, almost 2.7 million 5-11 year-olds, or 9.3% of the age group, had received their first dose. This compares to about 283,000 children under age 5, or 1.4%, at their July 1 peak. (See Figure 1).

As the article discusses, there are a number of factors going into this, including that a lot of parents won't even confront this issue until they go in for their kid's annual physical/they aren't in any particular rush to schedule an appointment, and fewer access points for those under 5.  But still.  

The article breaks down state by state data as well.

[pugz]

I'm curious if our district will still offer testing. They had same day PCR testing which was super convenient. Anyone in the family could use it, not just students.

[karinothing]

What are guys doing for the fall? Are your kids still wearing masks in school?

My kids wore them all last year but they aren't mandatory anymore. I think they would be in the minority if they do wear them. We got covid twice last yr (from school exposure both times) so I am not sure wearing the mask helped all that much (and this was when other folks were wearing masks in school).

[Susie]

That data is so, so disappointing.

The lack of access points in particular for kids under 3 is an issue.  On my local mom board on FB, a number of moms were trying to find places to get their 6m-2y olds vaccinated with Moderna, and were struggling.  All the local pedis did Pfizer only, and with retail pharmacies only doing age 3+, options were limited.  We were able to do retail pharmacy because DS recently turned 3.  Even for Pfizer, some pedis aren't offering it, and that makes access for their patients hard, especially the 6m-2y set.  Parents have to work to get it, and that's going to depress the numbers.  That doesn't come close to explaining these lousy numbers though.

At this point I am really feeling for the parents of kids <5 who have a legitimate medical reason why they can't vaccinate for covid even though they want to.  With such low vaccination rates in the <5 population, group care (daycare, preschool, and other developmentally appropriate activities) aren't feasible.  Unlike older kids/adults, they can't reasonably rely on masking, and they can't rely on peers' vaccines/immunity to help protect them, and there's no clear path through this.  Ugh.

[Susie]

Aug 4, 2022 10:03:48 GMT -5 karinothing said:

What are guys doing for the fall? Are your kids still wearing masks in school?

I expect no masks.  DD stopped wearing one when they dropped the requirement in the spring, and given the amount of groaning I got this AM when I told her to put one on for her orthodontist app't, I don't see her actually wearing one all day, even if we tried.

[Poppy]

2.8%?! Oh wow, that's abysmal melmaria.

karinothing, I do not plan on asking my kids to mask. We had covid in May so probably omicron of some type (and H had it [again?] in June so a little more training for our immune systems). DD just finished her primary series and DS was recently boosted. I might change my mind later in the year depending on how things play out, but for now, I don't think it's worth it.

[melmaria]

Aug 4, 2022 10:03:48 GMT -5 karinothing said:

What are guys doing for the fall? Are your kids still wearing masks in school?

My kids wore them all last year but they aren't mandatory anymore. I think they would be in the minority if they do wear them. We got covid twice last yr (from school exposure both times) so I am not sure wearing the mask helped all that much (and this was when other folks were wearing masks in school).

No.

Our district dropped the mask mandate back in March, and I highly doubt it will ever come back, unless some variant comes out that is legitimately 10000 times worse (but if that happened stuff would probably just shut down entirely, so...)

According to my teen, after the mask mandate was dropped, maybe like 10 kids in the entire almost 3000 person high school continued to wear masks.  Cases did not spike or go up as a result - the rates stayed pretty much the same.  Of course, this was after the giant Omicron wave and I think a lot of people had already been infected/had some recent immunity anyway.  Also, the vaccination rate is very high in our district - at the high school it's almost 90%.  I'm sure that helped.

Everyone in my family has now been vaccinated and everyone has already had Covid, so I don't expect my kids to mask in school, unless that becomes a rule again.

[karinothing]

Aug 4, 2022 10:14:12 GMT -5 melmaria said:

Aug 4, 2022 10:03:48 GMT -5 karinothing said:

What are guys doing for the fall? Are your kids still wearing masks in school?

My kids wore them all last year but they aren't mandatory anymore. I think they would be in the minority if they do wear them. We got covid twice last yr (from school exposure both times) so I am not sure wearing the mask helped all that much (and this was when other folks were wearing masks in school).

No.

Our district dropped the mask mandate back in March, and I highly doubt it will ever come back, unless some variant comes out that is legitimately 10000 times worse (but if that happened stuff would probably just shut down entirely, so...)

According to my teen, after the mask mandate was dropped, maybe like 10 kids in the entire almost 3000 person high school continued to wear masks.  Cases did not spike or go up as a result - the rates stayed pretty much the same.  Of course, this was after the giant Omicron wave and I think a lot of people had already been infected anyway.

Everyone in my family has now been vaccinated and everyone has already had Covid, so I don't expect my kids to mask in school, unless that becomes a rule again.

This is kind of where I am. Except I am finding it hard mentally to accept this.

[melmaria]

Aug 4, 2022 10:12:26 GMT -5 Poppy said:

2.8%?! Oh wow, that's abysmal melmaria .

karinothing , I do not plan on asking my kids to mask. We had covid in May so probably omicron of some type (and H had it [again?] in June so a little more training for our immune systems). DD just finished her primary series and DS was recently boosted. I might change my mind later in the year depending on how things play out, but for now, I don't think it's worth it.

It's abysmal, but to me, it's really not surprising at all.

In addition to the poor access points, getting kids vaccinated probably became a lot less urgent to many parents after their kids had Covid and had no major issues with it.  Back in April of this year, the CDC estimated that 75% of kids had already had Covid.  Those numbers are probably even higher now. 

If I'm the average American parent who doesn't feel super strongly about this one way or the other (not an anti-vaxxer, but not anxiously dying to be first in line either), and my kid just had Covid and it was NBD/"just a cold" - then yeah, I'm probably not in a huge rush to run out and get them vaccinated.  I'll wait until it's convenient for me, or when their 90-day heightened immunity period has worn off, or when it's required for school, or when we are closer to cold/flu season this fall, etc., etc.

Now, I know there's a lot of discussion amongst scientists about vaccine-induced immunity vs. infection immunity and which one is better/more durable long term, etc.  I was happy to get my little ones vaccinated even after they had Covid, because if anything, I knew the vaccine would serve as a kind of "booster" to their immune system which had already encountered the actual virus.  But a lot of people just aren't going to think that way. 

I think if vaccines for kids under 5 had come out before Omicron, things would have looked different.

[osulori]

Aug 4, 2022 10:03:48 GMT -5 karinothing said:

What are guys doing for the fall? Are your kids still wearing masks in school?

No-our district dropped masking back in March and as relatively Covid conscious as they were prior to that I think it's going to take a massive spike in not just cases but hospitalizations and deaths before they deal with the inevitable sh*tshow of mandating masks again. 

[frlcb]

Aug 4, 2022 10:17:14 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Aug 4, 2022 10:14:12 GMT -5 melmaria said:

No.

Our district dropped the mask mandate back in March, and I highly doubt it will ever come back, unless some variant comes out that is legitimately 10000 times worse (but if that happened stuff would probably just shut down entirely, so...)

According to my teen, after the mask mandate was dropped, maybe like 10 kids in the entire almost 3000 person high school continued to wear masks.  Cases did not spike or go up as a result - the rates stayed pretty much the same.  Of course, this was after the giant Omicron wave and I think a lot of people had already been infected anyway.

Everyone in my family has now been vaccinated and everyone has already had Covid, so I don't expect my kids to mask in school, unless that becomes a rule again.

This is kind of where I am. Except I am finding it hard mentally to accept this.

Our school dropped masks in March, and they won't go back, I am almost 100% certain. I was working at the school as well at the time and was freaked out about the no masks, but honestly no one was wearing them, and we all had covid in the winter when everyone was wearing them (and it started at school), so I adjusted to not wearing one pretty quickly. We won't make our kids wear them. 

[plutosmoon]

Aug 4, 2022 10:03:48 GMT -5 karinothing said:

What are guys doing for the fall? Are your kids still wearing masks in school?

My kids wore them all last year but they aren't mandatory anymore. I think they would be in the minority if they do wear them. We got covid twice last yr (from school exposure both times) so I am not sure wearing the mask helped all that much (and this was when other folks were wearing masks in school).

We stopped masking at school in March. DD caught covid during mandatory masking time in February. They take them off to eat without spacing and she fiddles with it, her sensory issues make anything but cloth impossible. I'm guessing the combo of fiddling, eating and mostly cloth masks for the few wearing them, means masking just isn't all that effective at her level with no other mitigation efforts in place, so DD doesn't really mask much anymore.

[InBetweenDays]

I don't yet know what the requirements will be here but they dropped masking last spring. We gave our kids the choice and they opted to mask through the end of the year (as did the majority of kids, surprisingly). If it isn't mandatory we'll again let them make the choice. I'm guessing this time they'll choose not to mask.

DS did have COVID in January but DD has still never had it (neither have I).

[dcn]

Aug 4, 2022 10:03:48 GMT -5 karinothing said:

What are guys doing for the fall? Are your kids still wearing masks in school?

My kids wore them all last year but they aren't mandatory anymore. I think they would be in the minority if they do wear them. We got covid twice last yr (from school exposure both times) so I am not sure wearing the mask helped all that much (and this was when other folks were wearing masks in school).

My kids won’t. They stopped when the mandate was dropped in the spring.

They are going to school this year on a military base though so I won’t be shocked if they bring masks back at some point. We’ll see I guess. Kids got their boosters just about 2 weeks ago and school starts Monday. I’m just hoping for the best.

[lea]

My kids stopped masking in March when they dropped the mandate (DD was still in preschool and masked a bit longer since she wasn’t vaxxed). We have a test-mask-stay policy so I imagine they’ll only wear masks if they’re symptomatic with something or after a COVID isolation if they catch it.

They won’t wear the kids kn95s I bought because they’re uncomfortable and I kind of figure the cloth and disposable masks they will wear aren’t really going to make a huge difference if no one else is masked.

[dulcemariamar]

Aug 4, 2022 10:03:48 GMT -5 karinothing said:

What are guys doing for the fall? Are your kids still wearing masks in school?

My kids wore them all last year but they aren't mandatory anymore. I think they would be in the minority if they do wear them. We got covid twice last yr (from school exposure both times) so I am not sure wearing the mask helped all that much (and this was when other folks were wearing masks in school).

My daughter wore a mask all last year. There are several medical conditions in my family that gives me pause but I would probably send her without a mask and just ask her to wear one of there is a surge in cases.

I worked in the school the last few years and always wore a mask and probably will continue with it at school because it is impossible to keep any sort of distance and I always have kids sneezing and coughing on me and I am asthmatic.

It might not make sense to have me wear a mask and not my DD but this can go on for years.

My biggest concern is Long COVID. I just know a few people that their lives got totally off track because of it so I still can’t view this as a flu like illness

[bookqueen15]

Is the only COVID booster option for ages 5-11 Pfizer? Is Moderna not an option for that age group for the booster? That seems to be what I have found but want to make sure I'm not missing something. I would prefer my 8 year old DD get the Moderna booster over Pfizer but that doesn't seem to be available.

I am not planning to ask DD to wear masks at school in the fall. She is vaccinated, will soon be boosted, and has had COVID twice. Including a month after she was vaccinated when she was still wearing a mask at school, she caught COVID from her desk mate who was also masking at the time. I stopped asking her to wear a mask after her second round of COVID. But she doesn't mind wearing on anyplace it is required, like at doctors offices.

[Velar Fricative]

Aug 4, 2022 10:25:29 GMT -5 melmaria said:

Aug 4, 2022 10:12:26 GMT -5 Poppy said:

2.8%?! Oh wow, that's abysmal melmaria .

karinothing , I do not plan on asking my kids to mask. We had covid in May so probably omicron of some type (and H had it [again?] in June so a little more training for our immune systems). DD just finished her primary series and DS was recently boosted. I might change my mind later in the year depending on how things play out, but for now, I don't think it's worth it.

It's abysmal, but to me, it's really not surprising at all.

In addition to the poor access points, getting kids vaccinated probably became a lot less urgent to many parents after their kids had Covid and had no major issues with it.  Back in April of this year, the CDC estimated that 75% of kids had already had Covid.  Those numbers are probably even higher now. 

If I'm the average American parent who doesn't feel super strongly about this one way or the other (not an anti-vaxxer, but not anxiously dying to be first in line either), and my kid just had Covid and it was NBD/"just a cold" - then yeah, I'm probably not in a huge rush to run out and get them vaccinated.  I'll wait until it's convenient for me, or when their 90-day heightened immunity period has worn off, or when it's required for school, or when we are closer to cold/flu season this fall, etc., etc.

Now, I know there's a lot of discussion amongst scientists about vaccine-induced immunity vs. infection immunity and which one is better/more durable long term, etc.  I was happy to get my little ones vaccinated even after they had Covid, because if anything, I knew the vaccine would serve as a kind of "booster" to their immune system which had already encountered the actual virus.  But a lot of people just aren't going to think that way. 

I think if vaccines for kids under 5 had come out before Omicron, things would have looked different.

I agree with all of this, plus there's talk about Omicron-specific boosters this fall. While those are boosters (I think??), maybe some people are also hoping they could act as primary doses for the variant that is actually circulating.

Even though my kid got vaccinated in June as soon as she turned 5 (a week before the under-5s were approved, lolsob) and has never had covid as far as we know, there wasn't a giant balloon of anxiety that was deflated after she got the shot like there was for DD1 in November (just a couple of weeks before Omicron surfaced in South Africa too). I mean, I was thrilled to get to that point because if she really has never had covid, now she has protection but so much has changed with this virus since only November!

[Velar Fricative]

No masking for us. DD1 and DH stopped when schools dropped the mandate in March, but wore them at school when I had covid.* DD2 stopped in June when they dropped the mandate for Pre-K and under. They haven't been masking at summer camp either.

However, there is a decent chunk of kids still masking.

*That ship of goodwill and caring for your community has sailed already, but I do think we could make a bigger dent in reducing infections if people at higher risk than usual of infection wore masks when they should (if they live with someone who tested positive, if they feel symptoms but have been testing negative so far, or even at some point when they start letting covid+ kids come to school as long as they don't have fevers or whatever because we know that's going to happen someday, etc.), moreso than just a few kids wearing masks because they want to or their parents want them to.

[fortnightlily]

Echoing what a lot of others have already said. I'm not planning to make my 3rd grader wear one unless it's mandated, which I don't anticipate happening unless we see major spikes in hospitalizations and deaths. He never brought home Covid during the full year that everyone masked all day except lunch, but he did bring home a cold twice. Despite a mask mandate and high vaccine uptake my community still had a massive Omicron surge because a lot of transmission was happening inside homes over winter break, either from household members or small social gatherings.

I also kind of wonder about the efficacy of masking over a certain threshold of time in a shared space. Even assuming all masks are high-quality, well-fitted and being worn properly the whole time (which, hello, kids), if you're in an enclosed space (be it a classroom or an airplane) with someone shedding virus for 4+ hours... at some point exposure is what it is. Viruses enter the body through the eyes, too.