@ January Covid

[NewOrleans]

TW 



Teen suicides plummeted in March 2020, when the COVID-19 pandemic began in the U.S. and remained low throughout the summer before rising in Fall 2020 when many K-12 schools returned to in-person instruction. …we find that returning from online to in-person schooling was associated with a 12-to-18 percent increase teen suicides. […] Auxiliary analyses using Google Trends queries and the Youth Risk Behavior Survey suggests that bullying victimization may be an important mechanism.

www.nber.org/papers/w30795

[erbear]

That actually really surprises me.

TW
I’m a teacher (8th grade) and I saw a huge increase in suicidal ideation and depression when we were home. Kids who returned to school when in person school restarted in fall 2020 seemed to fare much better than those who remained remote (obviously not a scientific study, just my observations).

[seeyalater52]

My stubborn 2yo finally wore a mask for an appreciable amount of time this weekend! We have been practicing since he was 18 months which was around when most public masking stopped and teaching him to do it and not fiddle with it when he hasn’t had many other masked adults and no masked kids around to model has been hell. We braved a 1+ hour each way train ride to visit my sister and niece today and he wore a high quality mask (happy mask) the whole time! I’m so excited that if he continues to do ok with it we may be able to do occasional indoor stuff this winter.

Also winter is going to be so damn long.

[waverly]

Jan 1, 2023 14:22:22 GMT -5 erbear said:

That actually really surprises me.

TW
I’m a teacher (8th grade) and I saw a huge increase in suicidal ideation and depression when we were home. Kids who returned to school when in person school restarted in fall 2020 seemed to fare much better than those who remained remote (obviously not a scientific study, just my observations).

I hope it’s ok to quote. I agree.

But I am wondering if they are talking about a group of kids that were already considering suicide due to school related issues. When they were pulled from school it seemed to get better. Most kids do better at school but for those dealing with severe bullying this article seems to indicate that pulling from school to do online (or maybe switching schools which is not in the article) might be a more helpful technique than realized. For those kids not being bullied than remaining in school is healthier for them.

[seeyalater52]

Jan 2, 2023 9:16:36 GMT -5 waverly said:

Jan 1, 2023 14:22:22 GMT -5 erbear said:

That actually really surprises me.

TW
I’m a teacher (8th grade) and I saw a huge increase in suicidal ideation and depression when we were home. Kids who returned to school when in person school restarted in fall 2020 seemed to fare much better than those who remained remote (obviously not a scientific study, just my observations).

I hope it’s ok to quote. I agree.

But I am wondering if they are talking about a group of kids that were already considering suicide due to school related issues. When they were pulled from school it seemed to get better. Most kids do better at school but for those dealing with severe bullying this article seems to indicate that pulling from school to do online (or maybe switching schools which is not in the article) might be a more helpful technique than realized. For those kids not being bullied than remaining in school is healthier for them.

If you look at the link in the original post you’ll see this is an analysis of population level data over a span of many years showing sustained trends and situating data from the first couple of years of the pandemic into that broader analysis. It isn’t a targeted sample and the findings from during the pandemic school closures corroborate broader long term trends. They also account for a lot of confounding variables. It’s incredibly compelling and I don’t think should be dismissed just because it may not square with much more limited anecdotal accounts or experiences.

[chickadee77]

Jan 2, 2023 9:16:36 GMT -5 waverly said:

Jan 1, 2023 14:22:22 GMT -5 erbear said:

That actually really surprises me.

TW
I’m a teacher (8th grade) and I saw a huge increase in suicidal ideation and depression when we were home. Kids who returned to school when in person school restarted in fall 2020 seemed to fare much better than those who remained remote (obviously not a scientific study, just my observations).

I hope it’s ok to quote. I agree.

But I am wondering if they are talking about a group of kids that were already considering suicide due to school related issues. When they were pulled from school it seemed to get better. Most kids do better at school but for those dealing with severe bullying this article seems to indicate that pulling from school to do online (or maybe switching schools which is not in the article) might be a more helpful technique than realized. For those kids not being bullied than remaining in school is healthier for them.

Also super anecdotal: We started homeschooling during covid, and are continuing for the foreseeable future for various reasons. I hear LOTS of parents in homeschool groups discussing how they didn't realize exactly how bullying and other issues (poor handling of IEP and disabilities, poor child/teacher relationships, being not challenged/too challenged, to name a few) were affecting their kids' mental states, and have simply decided to stay out of the school system. I agree that school is overall a great choice for many kids, but I wonder if, for those for whom it isn't, they just didn't return and are now in a better situation. Seeing the skyrocketing numbers of homeschoolers post-covid, it seems feasible.

I simply hope kids are getting what they need emotionally and educationally, whether or not that includes a traditional school experience.

[wanderingback]

Jan 2, 2023 9:16:36 GMT -5 waverly said:

Jan 1, 2023 14:22:22 GMT -5 erbear said:

That actually really surprises me.

TW
I’m a teacher (8th grade) and I saw a huge increase in suicidal ideation and depression when we were home. Kids who returned to school when in person school restarted in fall 2020 seemed to fare much better than those who remained remote (obviously not a scientific study, just my observations).

I hope it’s ok to quote. I agree.

But I am wondering if they are talking about a group of kids that were already considering suicide due to school related issues. When they were pulled from school it seemed to get better. Most kids do better at school but for those dealing with severe bullying this article seems to indicate that pulling from school to do online (or maybe switching schools which is not in the article) might be a more helpful technique than realized. For those kids not being bullied than remaining in school is healthier for them.

Did you look at the link?
It explains it pretty well and it’s a pretty short read with the summary.
There seems to always be a trend that suicide is lower when kids aren’t in school, for example during the summer, and the pandemic lock downs seem to have corresponded to that.
It seems to think bullying is the reason, which I obviously agree with but I wonder if other things like lack of sleep and stress of competitive school work also contribute to rates being higher during the school year.

[tacokick]

I’m not surprised at all. Suicide rates historically drop dramatically during the summer so this is very much aligned with that.

I hope there are more studies like this that just pull straight data on both the students and the schools. The results are very clear. I’m sure people will try to dismiss them but you can’t really ignore simple numbers of suicide + school reopening when these were not kids that were tracked or flagged in any other way.

Even without Covid in the mix, it’s a good study for virtual school advocates to have in general.

[seeyalater52]

Of course no population data can tell the story for every single child or circumstance. It is absolutely true that in person school is important for some kids - even many kids.

And obviously no one is suggesting that public schools just be closed forever, just trying to dig deeper into what has become a popularized narrative about school closures in the early part of the pandemic: that closing schools on the balance was worse for student mental health. It’s become so accepted as fact that some people with large platforms have even suggested that school closures in response to a novel virus were dangerous and irresponsible. This data tells a very different story and I think that is important. Figuring out the reasons why these trends exist and persist is part of learning how we can improve school environments and make them psychologically safer for more kids. But in order to make that a reasonable goal you have to establish signals that there is an issue to solve or improve on. This study does that.

[fortnightlily]

It makes sense to me that suicide in teens is correlated with conflict with peers or academic pressure, both of which would arise more during months when someone is in school. During lockdowns there is also probably some opportunity bias at play. Suicide is not the only measure of mental health, and there could be trends in rates of anxiety/depression that are not correlated with suicide rates.

[seeyalater52]

Can everyone please read the link so we can discuss what the study was actually about? A lot of the things people are saying or wondering about as possible explanations are discussed even in the short synopsis that was linked.

[erbear]

I did read the article. I know that schools are a hotbed for bullying and that suicidal ideation among a (fairly large) set of kids is very high when school is in session. I was simply commenting that I saw something different, that I was not expecting. I still worried about my subset of kids I was worried about when we were in school when we were remote, but I wasn’t expecting to add another 20-30 kids I hadn’t been worried about to that list.

Studies like this continue to affirm that there is a continuing need for all kinds of school, even after the pandemic. There are kids who really thrive socially and emotionally and academically at home; others do not.

[taratru]

I was a little surprised initially.

Then I thought about the changing of things like less homework, academic pressures, lightened testing loads, and more control over their days (like, not trapped in a vuilding all day) in addition to (my anecdotal experience) that kids came back just...meaner and teachers/staff are so overworked or understaffed that some support just doesn't happen anymore, and I'm not surprised.

Like all other things related to education, this is such a nuanced topic, with too many factors for simple solutions. I wiah more people (including teachers) could engage honestly.

[mcppalmbeach]

Jan 2, 2023 10:56:11 GMT -5 erbear said:

I did read the article. I know that schools are a hotbed for bullying and that suicidal ideation among a (fairly large) set of kids is very high when school is in session. I was simply commenting that I saw something different, that I was not expecting. I still worried about my subset of kids I was worried about when we were in school when we were remote, but I wasn’t expecting to add another 20-30 kids I hadn’t been worried about to that list.

Studies like this continue to affirm that there is a continuing need for all kinds of school, even after the pandemic. There are kids who really thrive socially and emotionally and academically at home; others do not.

I also read it and I’m the first to admit I’m not the best at interpreting things. But this reads to me that the findings are consistent more that we need to worry about wtf is going on at school than that school closures due to the pandemic had less impact on mental health than we thought (which it says in the conclusion). The conclusion also supports that major depressive episodes increased during the time out of school…whether that didn’t cause the suicide rate to increase because of increased parental supervision, less bullying or what have you is what is unknown.

[NewOrleans]

Jan 2, 2023 10:21:01 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Can everyone please read the link so we can discuss what the study was actually about?

As a board norm, please.  

[pixy0stix]

To quote: Across all of our analyses, our results repeatedly and convincingly that in-person schooling is a contributor to teen suicide.


They're pretty clearly saying that in person school, across the board no matter where school is held, is the issue. End stop.

[sillygoosegirl]

That's really interesting. A lot of people have been saying suicides rose in fall of 2020 because so many kids *weren't* back at school, so this seems to fly in the face of that. I haven't read the link yet, but does it look at statistics for schools that reopened in person vs those that stayed online?

On the other hand, in March, there was such a feeling of all being in this together. By fall, and growing ever since then, there's seemed to be so much more animosity between people than I remember from before the pandemic. I wonder if that could be a factor as well.

[fortnightlily]

This is definitely an important topic to study and talk about related to overall teen wellness, but given that this trend precedes the pandemic, and that suicide is not the sole yardstick for measuring mental health, I'm honestly not sure how useful this study is for dispelling the narratives around the net +/- of school closures, especially prolonged ones. I'd also really like to see the 'was closing schools during Covid worth the trade-off' conversation separate elementary schools from middle and high schools, because the scenarios and data points between the two can be pretty different. Pasting from the conclusion in the full PDF:

"Lastly, our results should not be interpreted as supporting a policy of school closures to reduce youth suicide risks. There are substantial long-term benefits to education, including, but not limited to, higher earnings, improved health, and reduced criminality. A growing body of research shows school shut-downs had many other adverse spillover effects including decreases in human capital acquisition for children (Bacher-Hick et al. 2021, Halloran et al. 2021; Kofoed et al. 2021) and reduced attachment to the labor force for married mothers (Hansen, Sabia, and Schaller 2021). Moreover, it is possible that the average student saw decreases in her/his mental health due to school closures, and only a small, but important, subset of the most vulnerable saw improvements due to the stress than in-person schooling created for them.

Indeed, analyses of real-time hospital surveillance data by Yard et al. (2021) suggests suicide attempts rose by 50 percent among young women during the pandemic. Meanwhile, self-reported major episodes of depression rose among both youth and young adults (see data from the National Survey on Drug Use and Health in Figure A6). Rather our research shines a light on the continued need for more research on youth mental health and deeper investigation why it declines for some students when school is in session. Likewise, future research and policy could focus on the determinants and consequences of bullying victimization, and the role that other policies — such as access to mental health care and safe storage of guns — could play in reducing these risks."

[seeyalater52]

fortnightlily absolutely, and those are a lot of my takeaways as well. But just as “school closures = good” is not a simple or accurate narrative, neither is “school closures = bad.” It’s an incredibly complex set of issues that weigh against one another in making determinations and it’s also worth noting that a lot of the hindsight bias of what we know now in 2023 vs what we knew in 2020 or 2021 about covid makes retrospective analysis even harder, because decisions were made in those early years with much less data than we have now (and that data is mixed, in some ways covid may be less serious to kids than people originally thought and in other ways it might be much more serious.) This topic is very nuanced and this one study, or any one study, can’t tell the whole story or provide enough information to make blanket policy recommendations based on (nor was the goal of the authors to take a stance on covid school closures) but it is helpful to identify datapoints that can help explain some of these trends and other relevant trends.

My frustration was more that people in the thread were responding with hypotheticals about things like sampling and response bias that were clearly accounted for in the study design and were discussed in the short synopsis.

[noodleoo]

Ugh, the Covid wave is starting. The Covid wastewater monitoring for my city is showing a huge spike. Currently higher than it's been since the Omicron wave last year.

Our neighbor walked by and told us she has Covid. Note, she didn't tell me this until *after* DD1 had run outside, given her daughter a huge hug, and was talking to her super close face to face. She really should have led with the Covid part! Daughter tested negative so far, but who knows how much that means. I feel bad for her too, they just had it in September!

I realized that this is going to spread like crazy through the schools in the next few weeks. No masks, kids won't test until after they show symptoms, which is probably after they've already been contagious and spreading it at school. I'm bracing myself for the kids to bring it home, which will be repeat of last January when we had Covid for the first time and the entire month was basically shot with the kids being out of school and then H and I getting it. At least we're all bivalent boosted including DD2 who got it on 12/23. I'm so glad we decided to just do the 30 min drive to get her vaxxed instead of waiting to find an appt closer.

[icedcoffee]

I wish our schools made masks mandatory for 2 weeks after Thanksgiving, Winter break and Spring break. My kids are good when it's required, but they don't do it when it's not. Oh well! Hopefully whatever they bring home this month doesn't spread to me. LOL

[pixy0stix]

I'm trying to find where I can get my kid his omicron booster, and fuck if I know what the language looks like using COs vaccine finder website.

Does he need one dose of the omicron vax, and it's not formally called a booster?

I did find this, which makes it seem like that's what it is - www.cnn.com/2022/12/14/health/covid-bivalent-vaccine-young-children-wellness/index.html

[seeyalater52]

Jan 3, 2023 13:37:26 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm trying to find where I can get my kid his omicron booster, and fuck if I know what the language looks like using COs vaccine finder website.

Does he need one dose of the omicron vax, and it's not formally called a booster?

I did find this, which makes it seem like that's what it is - www.cnn.com/2022/12/14/health/covid-bivalent-vaccine-young-children-wellness/index.html

The only omicron/bivalent vaccine for kids under 5 is the Moderna bivalent booster*, just need to make sure the pharmacist gives the correct dose for age group. It’s definitely referred to as a booster though. You could call pharmacies if they’re showing up on vaccine finder and ask if they have the Moderna omicron booster for kids under 6, the pharmacist should know what’s up now that it’s been approved for a few weeks. I’ve also heard CO’s dept of health clinics have it but I can’t verify that since I haven’t checked myself.

*eta: because the primary series is still the original formula

[noodleoo]

Jan 3, 2023 13:24:19 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I wish our schools made masks mandatory for 2 weeks after Thanksgiving, Winter break and Spring break. My kids are good when it's required, but they don't do it when it's not. Oh well! Hopefully whatever they bring home this month doesn't spread to me. LOL

Same. I briefly considered sending DD1 back in a mask for this week, but I figured it wouldn't really be effective if she is the only one wearing it. I'm also not sure she would wear it if no one else is and I didn't want to make that a struggle for her or us (she's been very emotional lately with the post holiday/vacation crash, I didn't want to add to the stress).

[icedcoffee]

Jan 3, 2023 15:28:11 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Jan 3, 2023 13:24:19 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I wish our schools made masks mandatory for 2 weeks after Thanksgiving, Winter break and Spring break. My kids are good when it's required, but they don't do it when it's not. Oh well! Hopefully whatever they bring home this month doesn't spread to me. LOL

Same. I briefly considered sending DD1 back in a mask for this week, but I figured it wouldn't really be effective if she is the only one wearing it. I'm also not sure she would wear it if no one else is and I didn't want to make that a struggle for her or us (she's been very emotional lately with the post holiday/vacation crash, I didn't want to add to the stress).

Yup.  We were forcing the kids before break because A. I had covid so they were directly exposed and B.  I didn't want them to get sick and ruin Xmas

But now I'm like...whatever, kids, try to wash your hands a few times a day and steer clear of sneezing children.  LOL

[wanderingback]

The Rona finally got me. I tested positive last week. My voice was kind of raspy but no sore throat, then I woke up with a mild headache, took my temp it was 100.2, so I tested and it was positive. The only place I had gone the previous week was to physical therapy and we did have 3 people over for Christmas dinner who tested negative before coming (which I know isn’t a guarantee). So I either got it one of those times (no one from Christmas has shown any symptoms).

This is my first illness since 2018, so I guess it was about time! My symptoms have been very mild, runny nose the first few days and now just a very occasional cough every few hours. Otherwise I feel fine. I really think lack of sleep shot my immune system over the past 8 weeks!

When I tested positive I immediately started wearing a n95 mask and haven’t taken it off since then. We’ve been keeping windows open sporadically and have air purifier going. I’ve been eating in the bedroom. It would be easier if we were not in a 1 bedroom apartment but doing the best we can and so far it seems to be helping. I figure the less viral load spreading around the better. I’m still breastfeeding like usual; so she’s getting those antibodies!

So far 7 days of tests and my partner is negative. He was wearing a mask too just in case, but has now stopped at day 7. The baby is acting like her usual self, but no clue if she is positive. The pediatrician said could bring her in for pcr if she displays any symptoms, but so far she hasn’t, so I’m happy about that, although I’m guessing she might have gotten covid. I’ve given up on worrying since that wont change anything. My mom was also with us last week (staying at another place but coming here all afternoon till late at night) and she hasn’t tested positive either.

I tested yesterday and I’m still positive so I’m going to keep masking until day 10 I guess to be on the safe side.
The bright side is I told my friends the next couple of weeks I’m going to go on a freedom tour and eat inside of a restaurant and go to my favorite speak easy!

Otherwise after that will go back to taking precautions. My friends baby has 2nd case of covid in 4 months. I know this is seeming to be our new normal, but will still remain cautious and vigilant while the baby is still young especially.

[seeyalater52]

Hang in there wanderingback! Glad it sounds like you may have prevented spread within your household, quality masks really do help! Hoping for your continued recovery and health for your family and especially your littlest one.

[wanderingback]

Jan 5, 2023 12:25:55 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Hang in there wanderingback! Glad it sounds like you may have prevented spread within your household, quality masks really do help! Hoping for your continued recovery and health for your family and especially your littlest one.

Thank you!!
Yay for masks.

[Poppy]

Jan 3, 2023 13:37:26 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm trying to find where I can get my kid his omicron booster, and fuck if I know what the language looks like using COs vaccine finder website.

Does he need one dose of the omicron vax, and it's not formally called a booster?

I did find this, which makes it seem like that's what it is - www.cnn.com/2022/12/14/health/covid-bivalent-vaccine-young-children-wellness/index.html

On comassvax.org you can search by vaccine type and you're looking for MOD Omicron Bivalent 6m-5yrs, which is the last one. We just went through this for my DD, although ended up doing a walk in at our county health dept instead rather than doing the mobile bus this time. (We did the bus once and it was fine, but in an office is more comfortable.)

[lo]

Jan 5, 2023 12:45:28 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jan 5, 2023 12:25:55 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

Hang in there wanderingback! Glad it sounds like you may have prevented spread within your household, quality masks really do help! Hoping for your continued recovery and health for your family and especially your littlest one.

Thank you!!
Yay for masks.

Glad you’re not feeling too bad! I BFed my twins wearing a mask and they never got it!