Parenting advice - more trouble at school

[CurlyQ284]

Sorry if I sound like a broken record but I can't remember a THING so I don't expect anyone else to.  My son's now 10 and in 4th grade, he was diagnosed with severe ADHD and oppositional defiant disorder when he was 5. Lots of phone calls/emails/meetings with school over the last 4 years to say the least.

This year had a rocky start because the new principal put him in a class with a friend even though it's noted in his file not to put them together. Chaos ensued, we moved him to a new classroom with a teacher that's pretty strict.  I've barely had to speak to her since he moved over in October, he's been doing really well and it's been nice to be in the shadows until today.

I got a call at 2:30 from the librarian/acting principal because the principal was out of the building. She said DS was sent from the classroom because he yelled at his teacher to shut up and that he would be in the library with her for the rest of the day.  She said his teacher and the principal wanted to meet with me tomorrow morning at 9:20 before he re-joins the class. I did not pick him up early because I thought it might be good for him to sit and stew in trouble for a little over an hour.  The librarian did not sound angry at all.  I pick up DS, the librarian sounds cheery and says he did just fine with her this afternoon which was weird, normally I get a furrowed brown and concerned tone when DS acts up. I ask DS what happened he tells me the incident happened before lunch, around 11 am so he was in there for most of the day but they didn't call me until 2:30 which is also weird?  He will tell on himself, so I generally believe him because he never really tries to make himself sound innocent.  This is his version of events and I want to know if you think the teacher did something inappropriate and how you would handle this meeting tomorrow (DS has already been spoken to at length, and given a consequence for his part).  My mom and friends will generally say everyone else is wrong and it's not super helpful so I'm hoping for objective opinions lol.


His teacher gave the class a "quick quiz" and told them to read the directions very carefully. He gets the quiz, starts answering the questions "what is your favorite color" and stuff like that.  After a short time, two kids (out of 22) turned the quiz in and she says time is up.  Another student says "I didn't finish yet".  She said "That doesn't matter, you failed."   At the end of the directions at the top, it said "Don't answer any of these questions, just put your name at the top and turn it in" so only 2 kids in the class of 22 saw that. 

She says to the whole class "You just took the easiest quiz of your life and you all failed"  at which point DS leaves the classroom because he's mad and he says sarcastically "well great, we're all stupid guys!".  He sits in the hall and she goes on to say "some of you will never get your drivers licenses because you don't follow directions" and he said he got more angry and came back into the classroom and yelled at her to shut up.

I do not doubt him, because again, he tells on himself and she has sent home assignments that say stuff that's given me pause like "the class as a whole has poor writing skills, so we are going to work on ---- this week".  So I don't think this is an out of character thing for her to say.  Do you think what she said was appropriate?  How would you approach this meeting tomorrow?

[whattheheck]

I don’t have a lot to offer but that test has been around since I was in grade school several decades ago. I hated it then and I hate it now. I understand it’s supposed to be a lesson in reading directions carefully but - assuming it’s the same stupid test - it has the kids do embarrassing things and it’s only more embarrassing when they find out they fell for the trick. I don’t know if it rises to the level of bullying but in my eyes it’s adults being intentionally mean to children and teachers being intentionally mean to students. So - in short - if she was harping on their falling for her trick - I’m inclined to think “shut up” was a lot nicer than the “fuck you” she deserved.

[Deleted]

Yes, what she said is inappropriate. I’m NOT a fan of what she did with the quiz either. It would be one thing if she used it as a teachable moment and addressed it gently with the class (ie: not “you all failed!”). While I completely understand your son’s reaction and frustration, it sounds like he also could have handled it better. I’d encourage him to apologize to the teacher for his behavior and ask him to come up with a better way he could have responded. I don’t think I’d punish beyond that.

I’d also talk to the teacher about it. You might not be getting the whole story from your son (sometimes even NT adults don’t remember everything accurately when emotions are involved), and then consider talking to administration depending on what the teacher says.

[joy]

I had this quiz in seventh grade. I remember it so clearly and, like your son, I also failed. Gah. I was angry.

My honest reaction is that your son felt very emotional at being perceived as “stupid.” It is a stupid mistake to not follow directions. You do feel silly when it happens. 22 other kids in the class probably felt degrees of the same!

But, your son reacted really strongly to it. I feel like the answer is in there. Maybe he has some feelings on himself or within this classroom that are along those lines. I would try to talk to him. Does he see any kind of therapist?

[sugarbear1]

Every teacher I know (myself included) has given a version of this test. Obviously the goal is to show the importance of reading directions, blah blah. My teacher friends have realized by now that this is sneaky and conniving and, in my opinion, should only be done in a lighthearted way. Maybe the kids who do it correctly get 5 extra minutes of recess or something and I would leave it at that. (I do not give this test anymore).

What she said was wildly inappropriate, completely uncalled for. I would absolutely bring it up in your meeting, not to excuse your son's behavior but to explain it.

We learned a few years ago that my DS's trigger is justice. If he thinks something is unfair, he will quickly become unhinged and it's very difficult to get him back on track. Is there a way (I'm in private school and our learning plans are more flexible than IEPs or 504s) to note this in his learning plan?

[CurlyQ284]

Feb 9, 2023 18:24:34 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Yes, what she said is inappropriate. I’m NOT a fan of what she did with the quiz either. It would be one thing if she used it as a teachable moment and addressed it gently with the class (ie: not “you all failed!”). While I completely understand your son’s reaction and frustration, it sounds like he also could have handled it better. I’d encourage him to apologize to the teacher for his behavior and ask him to come up with a better way he could have responded. I don’t think I’d punish beyond that.

I’d also talk to the teacher about it. You might not be getting the whole story from your son (sometimes even NT adults don’t remember everything accurately when emotions are involved), and then consider talking to administration depending on what the teacher says.

Oh for sure, my son thought was to have DS start the meeting with us, have him repeat everything he told me (so the principal can hear) and then have him leave the room so we can discuss. I'm open to hearing from the teacher but I didn't want to repeat his story and just have her deny it even if it's true. I think she will have a harder time if it comes directly from him, if she did in fact say those things. I'm not going to burn it down because we are in trouble too much for me to have any high ground but I did want to know if anyone else thought this was messed up!

[CurlyQ284]

Feb 9, 2023 18:29:17 GMT -5 sugarbear1 said:

Every teacher I know (myself included) has given a version of this test. Obviously the goal is to show the importance of reading directions, blah blah. My teacher friends have realized by now that this is sneaky and conniving and, in my opinion, should only be done in a lighthearted way. Maybe the kids who do it correctly get 5 extra minutes of recess or something and I would leave it at that.

What she said was wildly inappropriate, completely uncalled for. I would absolutely bring it up in your meeting, not to excuse your son's behavior but to explain it.

We learned a few years ago that my DS's trigger is justice. If he thinks something is unfair, he will quickly become unhinged and it's very difficult to get him back on track. Is there a way (I'm in private school and our learning plans are more flexible than IEPs or 504s) to note this in his learning plan?

Yeah I kind of think this is horrible! I mean he has ADHD and needs a lot of stuff just to get the assignment right, now you're going to trick him? But still he wouldn't have reacted this way without all the crazy comments at the end.

He is very quick to react badly when he feels embarrassed. I asked him if he felt tricked and then when he felt tricked he felt embarrassed and that's why he reacted this way and he said no but I'm not so sure.

What REALLY sucks is that now he doesn't trust her and once a teacher goes into territory where he sees them as an enemy, it's going to be hard to come back from that. I think if she had a conversation and she apologized he would probably be ok but a lot of adults will not apologize to a kid and if he sees her as an enemy he's going to make the rest of the year a rocky road for sure.

[dcn]

I have a son the same age/grade. He would be crushed if his teacher spoke that way to the class! I get the lesson but her comments after were so uncalled for.

Yes your kid was out of line for yelling like that and I’d have him take responsibility and apologize. But I don’t think any additional consequence is necessary.

[CurlyQ284]

Feb 9, 2023 18:25:05 GMT -5 joy said:

I had this quiz in seventh grade. I remember it so clearly and, like your son, I also failed. Gah. I was angry.

My honest reaction is that your son felt very emotional at being perceived as “stupid.” It is a stupid mistake to not follow directions. You do feel silly when it happens. 22 other kids in the class probably felt degrees of the same!

But, your son reacted really strongly to it. I feel like the answer is in there. Maybe he has some feelings on himself or within this classroom that are along those lines. I would try to talk to him. Does he see any kind of therapist?

He is very quick to call himself stupid, he is not. He is actually really smart, he's in advanced math and extra classes because he tests high in reading but he still says he's stupid when he gets anything wrong. It's really sad.

He is not currently but we just got back on BCBS January 1st, I just haven't gotten to it yet but you're right he should be and I'll definitely look for one.

It's hard to find one that gets ODD, we had one that did regular stuff and he never acted up in her office and I feel like she really didn't get it. Her suggestions seemed irrelevant or didn't work if I tried them, then Covid hit.

[underwaterrhymes]

There are a few issues here, I think.

The first is that your son reacted emotionally in a situation where other kids were perhaps better equipped to manage their feelings. (K also struggles with managing emotion, but has Social Pragmatic Communication Disorder and I guarantee that this would have made him cry.) So continuing to work with him and any of his therapists on how to navigate big feelings needs to happen.

The second is this is a poorly designed test to get kids to follow directions. If handled appropriately, it could be funny (but, again, my kid would not see the humor in this and it would make him feel shitty.)

But this teacher is also an asshole. If she wanted to teach kids something, the way to do it is not to tell them that they failed. This is collectively poor teaching, but she definitely is not following any IEPs or 504 plans by treating your son, in particular, in this way.

I would acknowledge in this meeting that you are continuing to work with your son and his medical professionals on how to react in situations like this, but also point out that how this teacher managed this lesson was extremely poor on multiple levels.

[al dente]

Omg this is so obnoxious. Way to pull one over on a bunch of 10 year olds! I have nothing helpful because I'm feeling mad just thinking about it lol.

[pixy0stix]

I had a teacher do this, and I was one of the kids that got it right. I couldn't figure out what was taking everyone else so long after I turned it in. I got worried I did something wrong. LOL!

No one reacted very strongly, but we were in high school at the time so a different maturity to our reactions. 10 seems awful young to pull this on.

[gretchenindisguise]

The exercise sounds poor and her words as reported by him sound not great.

That said - it also sounds like your son is dealing with rejection sensitivity often seen with ADHD (apparently also called Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria). Is he with a therapist/counselor? I'd bring it up to them as something to work on. www.additudemag.com/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-and-adhd/ (and obviously not just because of this incident, my guess is that this shows up in other areas/situations as well).

[CurlyQ284]

Feb 9, 2023 18:55:02 GMT -5 al dente said:

Omg this is so obnoxious. Way to pull one over on a bunch of 10 year olds! I have nothing helpful because I'm feeling mad just thinking about it lol.

That's ok, it's helpful to know I'm not out in left field!

[gretchenindisguise]

Or essentially ditto underwaterrhymes lol. I should have read further comments.

[joy]

Feb 9, 2023 18:37:28 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

Feb 9, 2023 18:25:05 GMT -5 joy said:

I had this quiz in seventh grade. I remember it so clearly and, like your son, I also failed. Gah. I was angry.

My honest reaction is that your son felt very emotional at being perceived as “stupid.” It is a stupid mistake to not follow directions. You do feel silly when it happens. 22 other kids in the class probably felt degrees of the same!

But, your son reacted really strongly to it. I feel like the answer is in there. Maybe he has some feelings on himself or within this classroom that are along those lines. I would try to talk to him. Does he see any kind of therapist?

He is very quick to call himself stupid, he is not. He is actually really smart, he's in advanced math and extra classes because he tests high in reading but he still says he's stupid when he gets anything wrong. It's really sad.

He is not currently but we just got back on BCBS January 1st, I just haven't gotten to it yet but you're right he should be and I'll definitely look for one.

It's hard to find one that gets ODD, we had one that did regular stuff and he never acted up in her office and I feel like she really didn't get it. Her suggestions seemed irrelevant or didn't work if I tried them, then Covid hit.

Oh, this makes me sad. He’s so young to feel these things. ☹️

I also am wondering if this teacher by her stern ways maybe exacerbates his feeling of stupid. Not intentionally but in her manner and tone. And maybe not all the time but enough that he finally snapped.

I don’t know - just thinking out loud.

[ProfessorArtNerd]

I think this is crappy that she did this. I can see how it could be a lesson learned if it was done in a funny way. I've toyed with putting something goofy in my syllabus to get students to read it. buut I teach college, and I wouldn't tell anyone who didn't text me a picture of a platypus or whatever that they'd FAILED. Good lord!

[loira]

I'm with pps. It's a mean trick to play on a bunch of grade 4 kids and I'm sure there are better ways of teaching them this lesson.

[UMaineTeach]

I’m just I’m shocked that he got a nearly full day in school suspension for such mild language and hardly running away.

Like, compared to the things I have thrown at me, flipping tables, bruising, hitting, kicking, screaming, swearing, elopement, room evacuations, involving multiple adults for multiple hours that almost never result in suspension.

I can’t fathom having a kid say I was stupid and leaving to the hall without permission and him being removed from class for 4 hours to sit calmly in the library. If this is their biggest behavior problem, then they should share their secret.

[UMaineTeach]

Feb 9, 2023 19:13:37 GMT -5 ProfessorArtNerd said:

I think this is crappy that she did this. I can see how it could be a lesson learned if it was done in a funny way. I've toyed with putting something goofy in my syllabus to get students to read it. buut I teach college, and I wouldn't tell anyone who didn't text me a picture of a platypus or whatever that they'd FAILED. Good lord!

Our HR person put in the middle of the yearly benefits renewal that went something like
Check here if you want benefits costs taken out pre tax and fill out purple form
Check here if you want to get an HSA and fill out orange form.
Check here if you want a homemade cookie
Check here if you want dental insurance and fill out blue form.

Very few cookies given out.


But this is a bad assignment for kids with almost no purpose. It’s like an April Fool’s prank.

[nsl]

I have a lot of thoughts here.

Does he have a 504 plan or IEP? If there are any documented accommodations for directions or assessment this is a clear violation. What consideration for students with disabilities was given when planning and executing this "quiz?" Why was the teacher shocked that a child with his specific learning disabilities would be upset in an outsized way at being told that almost the entire class, including him, failed the assessment?

The teacher is likely frustrated at what she perceives as a choice students are making not to carefully read directions. Your child isn't making that choice, at least not in the same way as his neurotypical classmates. Even if no formal accommodations are in place, at least one adult in this situation should have recognized that A: this "quiz" was only designed to set students up to fail, not to assess their learning, and B: this was grossly unfair for a student with special needs that literally boil down to impulsivity and responsiveness to directions.

I'm the mom of a kid with ADHD and a high school educator with 16 years of classroom experience, many of which have been teaching inclusion classes full of kids like yours. I would be LIVID. No content standards were being assessed here. No learning (except shame) was being reinforced. Your kid didn't react in the ideal way, but the ideal way here was to sit and accept a shitty lesson and the principal shouldn't be defending the teacher's intent or execution of the "lesson" she was trying to teach. There are ways to teach kids to read directions and answer the question asked in a way that doesn't humiliate them--this teacher didn't opt for any of those.

ETA: Your kid learned some things about trust today. His teacher broke his. That deserves restorative action from the teahcer as much as his words might warrant an apology to her. Damage has been done in the sense that he likely feels that she's going to try to trick him again in an unfair way. Are those consequences really what she was aiming for? I'd be asking some hard questions both about her intent and the impact of what happened because the latter likely isn't what she was trying to achieve but is probably going to have a more lasting effect not only on his response to her for the remainder of the year but also on his relationship with assessments and teachers in the future.

[luckystar2]

Ugh this reminds me of my DD’s 2nd grade teacher. Dd had undiagnosed ADD. The teacher was just an awful fit and had no sensitivity. She did something that embarrassed dd and dd acted up. It wasn’t the first time she embarrassed her. She obviously shouldn’t have acted up but the way the teacher handled it was awful. Hopefully your teacher is better than her. We discussed with her fully aware our kid could have gotten things wrong. But nope basically our kid was 100% right and the teacher couldn’t even understand how it would be upsetting. She dug her heels in more and was generally awful. I didn’t want to be that parent so we just let it go, started seeing therapist to help dd. But I really regret not going to the principal. My dd has never had an issue with another teacher.

I would give her a chance to explain and would admit that yes his actions were out of line. But that what she did if true could certainly be upsetting to certain kids. I agree with others that the test is nothing new and that isn’t that big of a deal, but her words afterwards were uncalled for.

[CurlyQ284]

Feb 9, 2023 19:27:21 GMT -5 UMaineTeach said:

I’m just I’m shocked that he got a nearly full day in school suspension for such mild language and hardly running away.

Like, compared to the things I have thrown at me, flipping tables, bruising, hitting, kicking, screaming, swearing, elopement, room evacuations, involving multiple adults for multiple hours that almost never result in suspension.

I can’t fathom having a kid say I was stupid and leaving to the hall without permission and him being removed from class for 4 hours to sit calmly in the library. If this is their biggest behavior problem, then they should share their secret.

That's the thing, he used to be one of those kids when he was small! That's why it annoyed me to no end that I had constant emails and chats with his third grade teacher about his tone. Lady, you are so lucky if it's just his tone his kindergarten teacher had to evacuate the room a few times!

And he didn't even say she was stupid! He said to his other classmates that she thinks they're all stupid!

[CurlyQ284]

Feb 9, 2023 19:11:56 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

The exercise sounds poor and her words as reported by him sound not great.

That said - it also sounds like your son is dealing with rejection sensitivity often seen with ADHD (apparently also called Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria). Is he with a therapist/counselor? I'd bring it up to them as something to work on. www.additudemag.com/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-and-adhd/ (and obviously not just because of this incident, my guess is that this shows up in other areas/situations as well).

Oh wow, this sounds a lot like him:

They stop trying. If there is the slightest possibility that a person might try something new and fail or fall short in front of anyone else, it becomes too painful or too risky to make the effort. These bright, capable people avoid any activities that are anxiety-provoking and end up giving up things like dating, applying for jobs, or speaking up in public (both socially and professionally).


It's why we don't do extracurriculars. He messes up and I think he gets embarrassed and quits. He will refuse to go on the field because "he's terrible" so I just don't sign him up for anything unless he asks, I don't force it.

[CurlyQ284]

Oh and he does have a 504, I'll find it and re-read what it says about directions.

I'm kind of wondering if the principal didn't hear all this and think the teacher was wrong and that's why she's going to be in the meeting tomorrow so I'm trying to walk in open minded. And maybe that's also why nobody called me until 2:30 because the librarian wasn't sure what to do? Hopefully they do not try to come for us though. I'm not confrontational but we've had enough of teachers who do the exact opposite of what works for him and me just apologizing for his outbursts. I'm over it at this point!

[TamiTaylor]

Feb 9, 2023 18:29:17 GMT -5 sugarbear1 said:

Every teacher I know (myself included) has given a version of this test. Obviously the goal is to show the importance of reading directions, blah blah. My teacher friends have realized by now that this is sneaky and conniving and, in my opinion, should only be done in a lighthearted way. Maybe the kids who do it correctly get 5 extra minutes of recess or something and I would leave it at that. (I do not give this test anymore).

What she said was wildly inappropriate, completely uncalled for. I would absolutely bring it up in your meeting, not to excuse your son's behavior but to explain it.

We learned a few years ago that my DS's trigger is justice. If he thinks something is unfair, he will quickly become unhinged and it's very difficult to get him back on track. Is there a way (I'm in private school and our learning plans are more flexible than IEPs or 504s) to note this in his learning plan?

I have only given this before as an April Fools prank. But never with commentary. She’s way out of line.

[Deleted]

Feb 9, 2023 19:59:49 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

Feb 9, 2023 19:27:21 GMT -5 UMaineTeach said:

I’m just I’m shocked that he got a nearly full day in school suspension for such mild language and hardly running away.

Like, compared to the things I have thrown at me, flipping tables, bruising, hitting, kicking, screaming, swearing, elopement, room evacuations, involving multiple adults for multiple hours that almost never result in suspension.

I can’t fathom having a kid say I was stupid and leaving to the hall without permission and him being removed from class for 4 hours to sit calmly in the library. If this is their biggest behavior problem, then they should share their secret.

That's the thing, he used to be one of those kids when he was small! That's why it annoyed me to no end that I had constant emails and chats with his third grade teacher about his tone. Lady, you are so lucky if it's just his tone his kindergarten teacher had to evacuate the room a few times!

And he didn't even say she was stupid! He said to his other classmates that she thinks they're all stupid!

Wait, did she actually call the whole class “stupid”? If so, she should absolutely know better. Kids get in trouble for calling each other stupid in elementary school.

[penguingrrl]

1) That’s an asshole move to give a test like that. My son is in 4th grade as well and that would have had a similar result with him (he has ADHD, social pragmatic disorder, and suspected autism). To follow it up with those kinds of nasty comments is completely inappropriate and never a way to speak to children. I would be escalating it.

2) Sending him to the library for the entire day is a violation of his FAPE rights. There was an article in the NYT today about how schools continually deny children with disabilities their rights by doing things like this. Here’s a gift link. I would be raising hell.
www.nytimes.com/2023/02/09/us/students-disabilities-informal-removal.html?unlocked_article_code=qC0eq1BCviy6p79omefsnWnqFm2NBelczm-aKzsXlQCxxWLXmZ4s_mn2FLXIp6o7Tc_IDD6BJvc5tXIV2oKe0RWaKDcIbEftIWNxBhTQx9d4a4E4h2DsTDT6C4A49sUfv8cthkioivxvY9zfFX50l6mitLfcmQH1s1HKUp7q63i5384ovy1KQLBhlNpssOHMK1cWCMOSXx4CKFcLsS_rK27J0ZlMl3rBxtUmyveKjnpZqB4o_mhjUDBo7NAB3pyV6Zjp-9gCTYzoBfNQ3AwPa6eHgEQ7kRyPMTY-0jBpi2aq1xQQmaagGidfD6_GghS93Fw56xEWD-FcLGbXG3LCedHDE2aznPKVorUsCQ&smid=share-url

[CloudBee]

I think leaving his classroom and sitting in the hall right outside the classroom door was a good tactic for managing his anger. He removed himself from the situation before truly blowing up. I think she poked the bear in this situation. I can't believe she didn't get down on his level and help him work through his emotions or call for someone to come and check on him. Engaging should have stopped beyond assisting him, at that point. Being sent to the library as punishment was uncalled for. If the library is a safe space for him, I can see asking if he would be wiling to go there for a short period of time to cool off and regroup. But spending the rest of the day there? No.

[CurlyQ284]

Feb 9, 2023 20:31:46 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Feb 9, 2023 19:59:49 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

That's the thing, he used to be one of those kids when he was small! That's why it annoyed me to no end that I had constant emails and chats with his third grade teacher about his tone. Lady, you are so lucky if it's just his tone his kindergarten teacher had to evacuate the room a few times!

And he didn't even say she was stupid! He said to his other classmates that she thinks they're all stupid!

Wait, did she actually call the whole class “stupid”? If so, she should absolutely know better. Kids get in trouble for calling each other stupid in elementary school.

No but DS interpreted the whole thing to mean she thought they were stupid for not reading the directions.