1) That’s an asshole move to give a test like that. My son is in 4th grade as well and that would have had a similar result with him (he has ADHD, social pragmatic disorder, and suspected autism). To follow it up with those kinds of nasty comments is completely inappropriate and never a way to speak to children. I would be escalating it.
Oh wow, that's really good to know schools are doing that. They haven't tried to send him home early since we got his IEP (now a 504) but he moves up to intermediate school next year and I don't know how that's going to go.
This is so stressful, I find myself wishing his school years away so we can be done with it all.
The exercise sounds poor and her words as reported by him sound not great.
That said - it also sounds like your son is dealing with rejection sensitivity often seen with ADHD (apparently also called Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria). Is he with a therapist/counselor? I'd bring it up to them as something to work on. www.additudemag.com/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-and-adhd/ (and obviously not just because of this incident, my guess is that this shows up in other areas/situations as well).
Oh wow, this sounds a lot like him:
They stop trying. If there is the slightest possibility that a person might try something new and fail or fall short in front of anyone else, it becomes too painful or too risky to make the effort. These bright, capable people avoid any activities that are anxiety-provoking and end up giving up things like dating, applying for jobs, or speaking up in public (both socially and professionally).
It's why we don't do extracurriculars. He messes up and I think he gets embarrassed and quits. He will refuse to go on the field because "he's terrible" so I just don't sign him up for anything unless he asks, I don't force it.
That sounds exactly like me when I was younger (even early 20’s). I was dx and medicated for ADHD in my mid 30’a and have since excelled more than I ever thought possible, professionally. Very interesting, I have never heard of this before.
1) That’s an asshole move to give a test like that. My son is in 4th grade as well and that would have had a similar result with him (he has ADHD, social pragmatic disorder, and suspected autism). To follow it up with those kinds of nasty comments is completely inappropriate and never a way to speak to children. I would be escalating it.
Oh wow, that's really good to know schools are doing that. They haven't tried to send him home early since we got his IEP (now a 504) but he moves up to intermediate school next year and I don't know how that's going to go.
This is so stressful, I find myself wishing his school years away so we can be done with it all.
Sending him to the library is functionally the same thing. And I feel you. I have a kid with basically the most severe school phobia possible. At best, we get 2 hours a day if I’m sitting in the parking lot, otherwise she doesn’t go to school at all. It’s awful, and I’m not coping well with the stress.
But I would raise hell that they’re denying him an education because it’s too hard for them, which is what sending him to the library most of the day is. We’re in an out of district school (the district pays because they can’t provide an appropriate education in district) that’s amazing and working with my kid. They also have an excellent college success rate, so we aren’t sacrificing academics to get the therapeutics she needs.
This thread is Exhibit A as to why teachers are fleeing the profession.
No, she did not call the class stupid.
No, this isn't an evil technique to trick kids. It's...teaching how to follow directions.
OP, bring up the time disparity, sure, but please realize the (ODD!) has some fault here.
Still NOT appropriate - I taught HS and am a therapist.
She said "That doesn't matter, you failed." At the end of the directions at the top, it said "Don't answer any of these questions, just put your name at the top and turn it in" so only 2 kids in the class of 22 saw that.
She says to the whole class "You just took the easiest quiz of your life and you all failed"
I'm working with university students who, from a young age, were thinking they were failures because of things like this. It leaves a mark. It's demeaning. You don't say such things, or even close. If you are doing something like this about reading directions, you give a positive to those who have followed (maybe a cookie or an extra point on a quiz) but you don't punish those who haven't - you point it out. "Hey all, as you can see, most of you didn't read the directions. I wanted to point this out in a way that doesn't harm you and encourage you to read the directions next time." Then it's useful.
Post by DefenseAgainstTheDarkArts22 on Feb 10, 2023 7:26:57 GMT -5
I was recently diagnosed with ADHD so I get the fun task of going back through everything and seeing what would have made it so that I do X now. I am going to link a few videos that might be helpful.
Wall of awful (essentially, when you fail at things over and over you are putting other barriers up that stop you from doing THE THING again). As I was reading I just kept thinking "Oh, this kid is putting up another brick after this test. This is going to become another thing he thinks about before he starts any type of school task" youtu.be/Uo08uS904Rg
I just want to hug your kid. I would have felt all the same things but just internalized them and been sent down a negative self-talk spiral. I really react poorly to the word fail/failure. I still vividly remember my 'failure to progress' during my induction being shouted about the OR as I was prepped for the c-section and I *knew* that was the medical term, but goddamn if that didn't cut deep.
In some ways getting it off his chest was probably a defense mechanism for not internalizing it... so I can appreciate that element of his reaction as someone who suffers from not being able to do that and beating myself up instead, but in that setting it wasn't ideal.
I would def look back at your 504 plan for things that they either didn't implement properly or things that you need add because this incident has highlighted a gap.
The first is that your son reacted emotionally in a situation where other kids were perhaps better equipped to manage their feelings. (K also struggles with managing emotion, but has Social Pragmatic Communication Disorder and I guarantee that this would have made him cry.) So continuing to work with him and any of his therapists on how to navigate big feelings needs to happen.
The second is this is a poorly designed test to get kids to follow directions. If handled appropriately, it could be funny (but, again, my kid would not see the humor in this and it would make him feel shitty.)
But this teacher is also an asshole. If she wanted to teach kids something, the way to do it is not to tell them that they failed. This is collectively poor teaching, but she definitely is not following any IEPs or 504 plans by treating your son, in particular, in this way.
I would acknowledge in this meeting that you are continuing to work with your son and his medical professionals on how to react in situations like this, but also point out that how this teacher managed this lesson was extremely poor on multiple levels.
I am here. I think your plan to start the meeting by having your ds share his version of what happened then leave is a good one, then I would acknowledge his inappropriate reaction and say that you are working with him on how to react appropriately in these types of situations, but stress that it is difficult to do so when you feel that the teacher is not on his side and is making things harder for him instead of easier by mishandling situations like this. I would not shy away from saying that she misused this teaching tool by making all the kids in class feel stupid for not reading the directions instead of just realizing they made a silly mistake and gently reminding them that directions are important and that we all need a reminder to pay attention to them.
This thread is Exhibit A as to why teachers are fleeing the profession.
No, she did not call the class stupid.
No, this isn't an evil technique to trick kids. It's...teaching how to follow directions.
OP, bring up the time disparity, sure, but please realize the (ODD!) has some fault here.
These threads (and the reading of replies) always remind me of how grateful I am that I got out last year.
I’m not a big fan of these types of lessons and never utilized them, but the fact that everyone simply believes right out of the gate that the teacher disparaged the class in such a mean way or tone is so telling.
Also, I taught at both a gigantic public high school, with numerous severe discipline issues daily, and a small private school. In neither one would I have felt lucky to “only” have to deal with a student yelling at me to shut up in front of the class. Damn.
Post by fivechickens on Feb 10, 2023 8:45:03 GMT -5
So basically this teacher set her class (of 9-10yr olds) up to fail.
Wow. Great teacher. 🙄
I have never had that quiz before, nor have my kids. What a dumb quiz.
And yes, a 4th grader not listening or reading entire instructions is going to predict how that child handles things in 8-10 years. How stupid.
ETA: my daughters 5th grade teacher taught with threats. She loved school up until she had that teacher. I over heard her tell a student she was going to amount to nothing because the failed a test. So sure some good teachers are being weeded out by asshole parents but let’s not assume the parents are always at fault. Some teachers suck as well.
Post by maudefindlay on Feb 10, 2023 9:13:42 GMT -5
You are the expert on your son, but I would ask you does he always hear things correctly once his emotions are amped up that high and also considering he was in the hallway? I'm not saying don't trust your kid, just saying keep an open mind and after he says what happened and leaves I would want the teacher to say her side and then weigh in.
Eta That test was awful years ago when I took it and I hate it still exists. I've not seen or heard it done in a way that doesn't embarass kids.
Post by sparkythelawyer on Feb 10, 2023 10:14:47 GMT -5
That exercise is a weird gotcha power move on the part of the teacher, who is giving me huge asshat vibes. If this is the reason teachers are fleeing, then those teachers can go.
Just had the meeting with them. I had DS tell his version of events and then I asked him to step out. I said I understand he cannot act that way, we had consequences at home and a long discussion about being disrespectful. At this point he does not trust you [his teacher] and in addition to talking about his behavior it's VERY important to repair this because the rest of the year will be very rocky if it's not.
DS was brought back in and according to her she said "some of you will struggle with your drivers license test because you don't follow directions" but admitted to saying the rest of it as is. She says she said it in a joking tone, (DS interrupted and said "yeah, that's not funny). She said a lot of the students were upset, particularly B, the one she said "that's ok, you failed" but that they had a discussion about it after DS left the room where they talked about what the kids learned from the exercise. B said you tricked us, and she said I wasn't trying to trick you I was trying to get you to read the directions. She told the class that nothing bad happened, it's not a real test and so there's no consequences for failing. She and the principal seemed to not understand at all that the language is really twisting the knife in to kids like DS, regardless of the consequences. She said if she knew it would be triggering for DS, she would have had him not do the exercise. She said this morning B came to the classroom and said "guess what! I read all the directions carefully on my homework!" and so he learned something from the exercise. They said several times that a lot of the students were upset but like didn't reflect on that at all I guess? Because B read his directions so it works, therefore it's a great exercise?
Later after teacher and DS had left the room, I was stressing to the principal that the kind of things she said are really hurtful to kids like him and the principal said "well I think she realizes that, she said she would word things differently if she knew DS would be hurt by it" and I said "no, that's not what she said, she said she would excuse him from the activity". I tried to stress again that the kind of language used is really not helpful, but I felt pretty dismissed. She had another parent meeting that she was 25 minutes late to, so I think she was done at that point.
I really don't think they get our side at all. We are continuing to work with DS on his issues with authority and being disrespectful . I said several times in the meeting that I do not think DS was right to have done what he did and explained what his home consequences were and the discussions we were having with him. The principal said if he's upset about something like that to walk around the media center or walk down to the office because the issue was that he sat outside the door (like he is supposed to when he wants a break) because yesterday he could hear her talking and what she said made him more angry and walking away might help him diffuse.
The teacher did tell DS several times that it wasn't her intention to make him feel tricked or stupid, but that the kids will be taking their standardized tests soon and teachers aren't allowed to help so she does this every year to shock the kids into reading the directions.
So overall I don't feel like we accomplished much. I didn't feel confident enough to address the FAPE stuff. I don't know enough, and I feel like arguing that he should have gone back to the room would have been like saying what he did was ok. If they do it again, I'm going to reach out to the advocacy nonprofit I've talked to before and see if one of their volunteers can go with me to discuss that piece of it.
That exercise is a weird gotcha power move on the part of the teacher, who is giving me huge asshat vibes. If this is the reason teachers are fleeing, then those teachers can go.
I think it’s the general reaction of everyone to automatically assume the the teacher was rude and told the class they were stupid right out of the gate. There’s a big difference between “you’re never going to get your driver’s license” to “this is why we practice these things! You’ll need to read directions for lots of things- not just school, but getting a driver’s license to learning a new skill! Let’s remember that the next time we take a quiz/test/have an assignment.” This could have been a silly teachable moment- certainly it’s nothing graded. And I’m sure the answer lies somewhere in between.
I’ve been in enough parent meetings where “well what did you do to set him off?” has been uttered to make me take every post like this with a grain of salt.
That exercise is a weird gotcha power move on the part of the teacher, who is giving me huge asshat vibes. If this is the reason teachers are fleeing, then those teachers can go.
I think it’s the general reaction of everyone to automatically assume the the teacher was rude and told the class they were stupid right out of the gate. There’s a big difference between “you’re never going to get your driver’s license” to “this is why we practice these things! You’ll need to read directions for lots of things- not just school, but getting a driver’s license to learning a new skill! Let’s remember that the next time we take a quiz/test/have an assignment.” This could have been a silly teachable moment- certainly it’s nothing graded. And I’m sure the answer lies somewhere in between.
I’ve been in enough parent meetings where “well what did you do to set him off?” has been uttered to make me take every post like this with a grain of salt.
I guess I’m in the minority in that I don’t see the “quiz” as some terrible humiliation. If 22 kids all got it “wrong,” there should be some comfort there and a chance to reflect on how quickly we jump ahead without carefully reading. I don’t think the teacher was an ogre, esp because I’m not reading her “tone” as harsh or demeaning.
I think it’s the general reaction of everyone to automatically assume the the teacher was rude and told the class they were stupid right out of the gate. There’s a big difference between “you’re never going to get your driver’s license” to “this is why we practice these things! You’ll need to read directions for lots of things- not just school, but getting a driver’s license to learning a new skill! Let’s remember that the next time we take a quiz/test/have an assignment.” This could have been a silly teachable moment- certainly it’s nothing graded. And I’m sure the answer lies somewhere in between.
I’ve been in enough parent meetings where “well what did you do to set him off?” has been uttered to make me take every post like this with a grain of salt.
The assignment alone is cringeworthy.
It’s a big jump from cringeworthy to asshat vibes and these teachers should leave the profession.
So wait, the teacher says she did say that bit about failing the easiest quiz of their life?
I have a lot of respect for teachers, I have a few teachers in my family, but that's not an appropriate statement to say to 4th graders. I'm not sure when it would ever be appropriate but definitely not at this age.
That exercise is a weird gotcha power move on the part of the teacher, who is giving me huge asshat vibes. If this is the reason teachers are fleeing, then those teachers can go.
I think it’s the general reaction of everyone to automatically assume the the teacher was rude and told the class they were stupid right out of the gate. There’s a big difference between “you’re never going to get your driver’s license” to “this is why we practice these things! You’ll need to read directions for lots of things- not just school, but getting a driver’s license to learning a new skill! Let’s remember that the next time we take a quiz/test/have an assignment.” This could have been a silly teachable moment- certainly it’s nothing graded. And I’m sure the answer lies somewhere in between.
I’ve been in enough parent meetings where “well what did you do to set him off?” has been uttered to make me take every post like this with a grain of salt.
Seriously. And while sparky may be happy for teachers to go, IME, a mediocre teacher is honestly better than having no teacher at all. It is easy to be flippant about it but it is a serious problem in reality.
CurlyQ284, I'm sorry the meeting didn't go as you wished. It sounds like this school really might not offer the support and expertise to handle his challenges. Is there anyone on campus that has developed a positive relationship with him that can help support him when he is struggling? That can make such a huge difference since that person will often be able to "get through" to a child who is otherwise wrapped up in an incident, calming the situation down, allowing him to be heard, and restoring the relationship instead of letting the incident drag out. I wonder about the librarian being the acting admin when this happened... is this a small school? Is there only a principal or do you also have an Assistant Principal, Counselor, etc?
I guess I’m in the minority in that I don’t see the “quiz” as some terrible humiliation. If 22 kids all got it “wrong,” there should be some comfort there and a chance to reflect on how quickly we jump ahead without carefully reading. I don’t think the teacher was an ogre, esp because I’m not reading her “tone” as harsh or demeaning.
I don't love it, it wouldn't be my first choice of ways to teach this concept, but I also think the "burn it down" mentality here over what is a pretty minor misstep in the grand scheme of things is giving far more asshat vibes than what the teacher did.
I guess I’m in the minority in that I don’t see the “quiz” as some terrible humiliation. If 22 kids all got it “wrong,” there should be some comfort there and a chance to reflect on how quickly we jump ahead without carefully reading. I don’t think the teacher was an ogre, esp because I’m not reading her “tone” as harsh or demeaning.
I'm shocked more people didn't get it when they were kids. I feel like I might have had it more than once.
Never did our class think "OMG this teacher is pulling a fast one on us!" We thought, "Damn, I really should read the directions".
Setting the class up to fail by...writing directions? To be followed? LOL
Teachers, rest assured there are sane parents out there who are on your side. Stick it out for us, and the kids who have the ability to grow up to be reasonable individuals and escape whatever this :: waves hands around wildly :: is.
So wait, the teacher says she did say that bit about failing the easiest quiz of their life?
I have a lot of respect for teachers, I have a few teachers in my family, but that's not an appropriate statement to say to 4th graders. I'm not sure when it would ever be appropriate but definitely not at this age.
Yes she said in the meeting that she did say that and then when the kids were upset she went on to say there weren't consequences for failing they didn't get an actual grade.
I think it’s the general reaction of everyone to automatically assume the the teacher was rude and told the class they were stupid right out of the gate. There’s a big difference between “you’re never going to get your driver’s license” to “this is why we practice these things! You’ll need to read directions for lots of things- not just school, but getting a driver’s license to learning a new skill! Let’s remember that the next time we take a quiz/test/have an assignment.” This could have been a silly teachable moment- certainly it’s nothing graded. And I’m sure the answer lies somewhere in between.
I’ve been in enough parent meetings where “well what did you do to set him off?” has been uttered to make me take every post like this with a grain of salt.
Seriously. And while sparky may be happy for teachers to go, IME, a mediocre teacher is honestly better than having no teacher at all. It is easy to be flippant about it but it is a serious problem in reality.
CurlyQ284, I'm sorry the meeting didn't go as you wished. It sounds like this school really might not offer the support and expertise to handle his challenges. Is there anyone on campus that has developed a positive relationship with him that can help support him when he is struggling? That can make such a huge difference since that person will often be able to "get through" to a child who is otherwise wrapped up in an incident, calming the situation down, allowing him to be heard, and restoring the relationship instead of letting the incident drag out. I wonder about the librarian being the acting admin when this happened... is this a small school? Is there only a principal or do you also have an Assistant Principal, Counselor, etc?
Yeah I did think that was weird, there's never been an assistant principal. I'm from a different state so I figured they just do things differently here (they break up the grades differently than what I experienced too). The school is about 100 kids per grade, jr k-4th so I guess 500 kids which seems normal I think?
He does have a few teachers he loves and trusts. He usually does have a visit with the male teacher he is close to and then he was assigned "safety duty" with the other one, so he assists her in the classroom in the morning and then again at dismissal.
I'm also allowing for the possibility that maybe they will marinate on what I said about kids like him processing things differently.
So she basically said that it's ok that the assignment derailed your son because it helped B learn to read the directions? That's garbage. It's like leaving racist picture books on the shelves so you can have a teachable moment for white kids without regard to how harmful the content is for children of color.
So she basically said that it's ok that the assignment derailed your son because it helped B learn to read the directions? That's garbage. It's like leaving racist picture books on the shelves so you can have a teachable moment for white kids without regard to how harmful the content is for children of color.
I didn't get that from the description at all. She was describing how it was useful to other kids who were initially upset and that they were able to learn the lesson she intended and apply it to their work.
I don't think we need to overblow what happened here or minimize the harm of racist picture books in the classroom by equating the two things.
I’m just I’m shocked that he got a nearly full day in school suspension for such mild language and hardly running away.
Like, compared to the things I have thrown at me, flipping tables, bruising, hitting, kicking, screaming, swearing, elopement, room evacuations, involving multiple adults for multiple hours that almost never result in suspension.
I can’t fathom having a kid say I was stupid and leaving to the hall without permission and him being removed from class for 4 hours to sit calmly in the library. If this is their biggest behavior problem, then they should share their secret.
I have dealt with many of these behaviors, including being physically intimidated and threatened by ( very large/strong) 17/18 year olds. Just because worse behavior exists does not mean that yelling “shut up” to your teacher is some minor offense. If a student did that in my class they would not return for that day to the classroom.