I'm so sorry this happened to you. I think therapy is a good idea, individual and couples, if he refuses you should go on your own to help you decide how to proceed. If he agrees to do couples therapy, you should still do individual.
I don't like that you are financially dependent on him. I recommend stashing away some cash, like everytime you get groceries grab some cash back to stash. Get an account in your name only for the money, at a different bank than you currently have. If you can safely access some money to put in your own account I would do that today. Build an account so you can leave quickly or support the kids if he's removed from the home in the event of future abuse. Courts can be slow to order financial support, my child support hearing was scheduled 3 months after our motion, another friends took nearly 6 months.
I would document what happened, take pictures it there are any marks. Open a new email account and save the pictures in the drive. I would not have the new email account on any device he accesses.
Please stay safe.
I don't love the financial part but I do have to say he's very giving in that aspect. He's never said it's his money or anything and we do make all our larger financial decisions together. We both share the bill paying, but most of it is auto anyways. I just don't have a paycheck. I could save up cash but I don't think I could easily save up the thousands it would take if I had to get a lawyer and fight for custody and all that.
Even if I were to get a job and have my own income it would be pennies compared to his salary in the next several years. Even if I started now and worked til I was dead, I'd never make enough to afford the house we live in. The market has doubled since we bought which is great and I guess if he had to give me half I'd be able to get something smaller but I could never afford the upkeep.
Anyways I definitely don't think I'm at that point right now. I'm going to start with therapy and go from there.
I've basically just been avoiding him all day because I'm not ready to have this conversation with the kids around. Thankfully we didn't have any valentine's day things planned other than kids sports this evening.
Thanks everyone, this is so out of character for him and I'm honestly so shocked and trying to process it while also taking care of my kids and doing our daily things at the same time.
I don't plan on leaving him at the current time but I do like the idea of having a plan in case I need to in the future. We have some friends going through divorces right now and I just can't imagine doing a shared custody with my kids. Also his business has finally hit a point where it is growing rapidly and will double in size each year for at least the next 5 years. This is everything he's been working towards and we saved and did without money and time for so many years to get to this point.
For those of you suggesting documents and papers to save, how do I do that for things I don't have access to? Our accounts have gotten so complex in the last few years that I don't really know where to begin. I have access to our joint checking and savings but I know he invests a lot and I don't know the ins and outs of all that. He's on the mortgage but both of us are on the house and we have several rental properties we are both on (no mortgage)
Our taxes are so complex. He has an accountant full time for his business but a lot of things he now uses the business to pay for based on the advice of the accounting firm, things like our healthcare, car insurance, car payment, etc. But I don't know any of those numbers or how to get them without raising any red flags. A lot of things he has given me passwords to in lastpass but they all have 2 part authentication so they are kind of pointless to me. I'm also not great with technology and that is his business, the things he does are so advanced and complicated that it is totally overwhelming for me.
You are in such a dangerous place at this point — even setting aside the physical abuse. You are married. You deserve to know everything about where your money is, how it is invested, etc. My husband owns his own business, but I see his P&L every year as we pull our tax info together. I actually focus more on our investments than he does (I make a lot more than he does right now), but he knows where the info is. Even if your marriage becomes 100% stable, you have to learn this stuff or you are going to be in over your head if he dies or is incapacitated. Please just start asking questions. Don’t sign anything without reading it and asking questions. Ask to be on calls with any financial advisor, etc.
Post by wanderingback on Feb 14, 2023 12:41:13 GMT -5
With your follow ups I would definitely recommend counseling for yourself as soon as possible. When you say "this is out of character for him," well no it isn’t. I was in an emotional abusive relationship and he pinched my arm once, so I’ve been where you are. Absolutely no one deserves to live the way you are, even just his lack of respect for helping with household tasks and child rearing and communication, let alone the hitting. Now how you handle it is obviously totally up to you, that’s why I recommend counseling, but his behavior is not ok, justified or normal for a loving partner.
Post by thedutchgirl on Feb 14, 2023 12:44:28 GMT -5
I'm so sorry this happened to you. You asking for a reasonable partnership is not any type of justification for his actions.
I have seen a lot of mentions of counseling for the both of you together. I definitely recommend therapy for yourself, but often the recommendation is that joint counseling is a bad idea with someone who is abusive. I would go for yourself and talk there about whether joint counseling with him is a good idea.
On the financial stuff. Do you have everything all set up in case something were to happen to him? If not, that's a process you both need to be involved in, and I would suggest you can get the information in the context of estate planning.
Post by wanderingback on Feb 14, 2023 12:46:21 GMT -5
For things you don’t have access to, I would simply ask him for access. Maybe not today, but in any relationship it’s important for both people to have access to joint accounts. There’s no need to be secretive about it, you have just as much of a right to access joint accounts as he does.
Thanks everyone, this is so out of character for him and I'm honestly so shocked and trying to process it while also taking care of my kids and doing our daily things at the same time.
I don't plan on leaving him at the current time but I do like the idea of having a plan in case I need to in the future. We have some friends going through divorces right now and I just can't imagine doing a shared custody with my kids. Also his business has finally hit a point where it is growing rapidly and will double in size each year for at least the next 5 years. This is everything he's been working towards and we saved and did without money and time for so many years to get to this point.
For those of you suggesting documents and papers to save, how do I do that for things I don't have access to? Our accounts have gotten so complex in the last few years that I don't really know where to begin. I have access to our joint checking and savings but I know he invests a lot and I don't know the ins and outs of all that. He's on the mortgage but both of us are on the house and we have several rental properties we are both on (no mortgage)
Our taxes are so complex. He has an accountant full time for his business but a lot of things he now uses the business to pay for based on the advice of the accounting firm, things like our healthcare, car insurance, car payment, etc. But I don't know any of those numbers or how to get them without raising any red flags. A lot of things he has given me passwords to in lastpass but they all have 2 part authentication so they are kind of pointless to me. I'm also not great with technology and that is his business, the things he does are so advanced and complicated that it is totally overwhelming for me.
I stayed too long with someone (about 10 years too long) bc I couldn't bring myself to leave him bc of a 'rapidly increasing business' that we both invested in (him time and money, me time) that was on track to show huge growth. The big contracts we were anticipating never materialized. The business eventually crashed to zero. Nothing in life is a guarantee. The promise of financial security is NEVER imo a reason to stay.
Eventually, I made a plan and did leave. The business had crashed, he relapsed into addiction, and the abuse had turned its final corner and became physical (he had been emotionally, verbally, and financially abusive for YEARS) .. I put my plan into place with a 4yo and 2 dogs in tow. That was 10 years ago. It hasn't been a cakewalk but I don't regret leaving for a single day.
We have LastPass and all of our important/business accounts and entertainment accounts are in the shared folder so I can see that vault and all passwords with my login account/info and my double factor authentication goes to my phone (because I am logged in with my account).
If just having basic access to your joint tax information is sending “red flags” you may have to consider that you are in a financially abusive relationship. I know that sounds harsh, but it’s a real possibility. What do you mean by “red flags”? What is dangerous in knowing and having access to all of YOUR tax information and family financials. I understand that it’s gotten complicated but you are afraid of showing interest to requesting access and that means that you are afraid of something. I’m not being funny or cutesy. These are your words, are you aware of how you feel or why you feel this way? Have you just drifted off of the important financial pieces (it happens) or are you afraid to ask/demand the tools to have access and understand your financials?
You should be willing to pay for financial advise from your account and have access to all of your family financial accounts and tax returns.
Also, YouTube has some easy and great tutorials on LastPass.
I knew I’d get blasted for saying that, but I did also say it was due to my own bias. I had a roommate who used to get drunk and then get into epic fights with her significant other. I did say that it was NOT ok for him to hit her but in my opinion you should have these conversations when in a clear mindset. There is definitely a lot going on here and they need outside help.
ETA-Wendy, with your update I definitely think you should talk to your H about going to therapy. You should be able to tell him how you feel and he should listen and not just dismiss it as not his job. That’s misogynistic to think he shouldn’t be able to do what needs to be done. I am very sorry this happened to you. You deserve to have someone do the extras for you too.
Post by jennistarr1 on Feb 14, 2023 13:30:49 GMT -5
I didn't want to read and not offer support. I would echo others that say document and begin to create a safety plan, and have a therapist.
I am just so troubled by him saying he didn't hit you. I can see someone not wanting to admit that the levels here are pretty damning...he's pretending it didn't happen, he's denying it, he's trying to convince you it didn't happen. I'm wondering if an entry point to make some headway about what happened is for him to admit he laid hands on you, or what does he define the incident as (for example, I grabbed your arm to get your attention). At least with that you can talk about how that has taken your agruments to a physical level and it's not where you ever expected your marriage to be.
To be clear, you don't have to accept whatever term he comes up with. Don't doubt yourself or accept his explanation of a lesser defense. But I'm hoping you get somewhere with this
It may not be anything he’s ever done before…but anything response from him OTHER THAN “Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry, I was wrong to do that and will I NEVER do it again!” combined with immediately trying to get himself into therapy means that it is 100% NOT “out of character” for him.
This is hard to hear, and it may take you some time to think about it and process it. That’s okay.
We have LastPass and all of our important/business accounts and entertainment accounts are in the shared folder so I can see that vault and all passwords with my login account/info and my double factor authentication goes to my phone (because I am logged in with my account).
If just having basic access to your joint tax information is sending “red flags” you may have to consider that you are in a financially abusive relationship. I know that sounds harsh, but it’s a real possibility. What do you mean by “red flags”? What is dangerous in knowing and having access to all of YOUR tax information and family financials. I understand that it’s gotten complicated but you are afraid of showing interest to requesting access and that means that you are afraid of something. I’m not being funny or cutesy. These are your words, are you aware of how you feel or why you feel this way? Have you just drifted off of the important financial pieces (it happens) or are you afraid to ask/demand the tools to have access and understand your financials?
You should be willing to pay for financial advise from your account and have access to all of your family financial accounts and tax returns.
Also, YouTube has some easy and great tutorials on LastPass.
I didn't mean red flags as in I'm scared of him but we just got into a huge fight and then the next day I want to make sure I have access to all our financial information.
He has never hidden anything and will share if I ask, but as things increased in complexity, I just became less involved because of day to day life. We have both talked about sitting down and basically doing some estate planning but life has gotten in the way. Part of it is me too. I carry the majority of the mental load for our house and kids and I just don't have the capacity to have a lesson on our financial situation. We used to sit down and do our taxes together but now we do the basic collecting documents and write offs and send to the accountant. I know we need to fix this sooner than later.
wendyp I get it. You make sense. It is still worth saying “We had a fight and it got me thinking that I’ve been pretty disconnected to the financial side of our family/relationship. I checked LassPass and can’t get in - it goes to your phone not mine.” is part of a healthy relationship. Yes, go about it with some distance from the ‘the fight’ when you are feeling well, centered, and good about yourself. But that should take a few days. Please don’t think it’s a poor reflection on you, your relationship, or something you can’t do.
I'm sorry this happened to you, and like everyone else said, it's not okay, at all. I think he needs to be told, point blank, you know what happened and it is a real problem, one that has you rethinking the marriage. Don't allow yourself to be dragged into an argument about it; it's your reality and he can't negate that. Also maybe call a domestic violence hotline to see what they have to say. They can give you a lot of helpful information about how to deal with this particular situation and anything else you might need to know going forward.
Psychology Today has a super helpful therapist finder that I've used successfully. It's a bit hard to find a therapist right now, because post-covid demand seems to be through the roof, but I would try there.
Check out Thatdarnchat on instagram for information and commiseration on women's domestic work. www.instagram.com/thatdarnchat/
I don’t get why you just won’t say “last night was unacceptable. You got physical with me and now you are trying to claim it didn’t happen. While I’m not leaving you now, you need to realize that physicality is a deal breaker. I no longer feel safe physically, emotionally or financially and we need to work to rebuild this. To make this work, I expect….”
You can fill in the dots, but for me it would include him finding an individual therapist or anger management program and him sitting down with you with the full transparency of financial info.
I don’t get why you are scared to tell him “you did something that is a dealbreaker and to work it out, I have demands” — not being able to say this seems like a red flag.
Thank you everyone, this has been very helpful. I called and made an appointment for a therapist that I will see myself next week. We still haven't talked we likely won't until tomorrow because I'm taking the kids to an event this evening (it was never the plan for him to go) but how would you go about moving forward with day to day life?
I need him to watch the kids so I can go get my nails done and I have a hair appointment on Friday.
The other big thing is we are going to st Lucia in 2 weeks. My parents are flying in to watch the kids and this is the first big trip we have planned away from them and I really need it. But obviously I'm upset now and do not want to go to this romantic place with him right now. We can't cancel because we would lose all the money and on top of it, I don't want to tell my parents anything or anyone else. How can I go and enjoy myself without being sad about the current state of my marriage?
Post by litskispeciality on Feb 14, 2023 14:36:01 GMT -5
OP please look in to individual counseling, and be honest with everything happening. Get it documented somewhere. Hopefully the counselor could guide you to resources should you not be able to leave. I hope there is no financial abuse and that you have access to money, but that's where my mind is going. Also look in to gaslighting, because it's happening.
Telling someone not to fight when they've had a couple of drinks is victim blaming, straight up. OP is no way in the wrong. If OP found courage after a couple of drinks to stand up for themselves awesome. Nothing in this thread should have happened, esp the pretending it didn't happen the next day (gaslighting). I worry for OP that they're in a dangerous situation which will only grow worse. I hope I'm really jumping to a bad conclusion.
Post by Patsy Baloney on Feb 14, 2023 14:38:08 GMT -5
Just wanted to echo that you should have access to all of your money, accounts, etc.
He should give you all info freely.
Be a big, stinky egg if he won’t. Financial abuse/infidelity is real and traumatic. I hope he’ll just share passwords, links, etc., and it won’t be a thing. But if it is, remember, access is your right.
I would strongly encourage you to consider the following questions. You do not need to answer these questions here. I have posed these to a friend whose husband isn't a great partner in the past.
1. What do you get out of this relationship? 2. Is your husband setting a good example for your children of what a life partner and parent should be?
I don’t get why you just won’t say “last night was unacceptable. You got physical with me and now you are trying to claim it didn’t happen. While I’m not leaving you now, you need to realize that physicality is a deal breaker. I no longer feel safe physically, emotionally or financially and we need to work to rebuild this. To make this work, I expect….”
You can fill in the dots, but for me it would include him finding an individual therapist or anger management program and him sitting down with you with the full transparency of financial info.
I don’t get why you are scared to tell him “you did something that is a dealbreaker and to work it out, I have demands” — not being able to say this seems like a red flag.
Well I definitely said all that last night. And he replied that he didn't hit me.... We haven't talked today because I'm not going to do it while we are rushing around getting the kids ready for school and he has to work all day and I have a busy day as well. I just picked my oldest from school and I won't be home til after 8. So I assume we'll talk then. I'm not scared to tell him that, but honestly I kind of expected him to come to me first and he hasn't. I did say some not nice things to him last night and I know he's very upset with me as well, but he is the one who went too far.
I don’t get why you just won’t say “last night was unacceptable. You got physical with me and now you are trying to claim it didn’t happen. While I’m not leaving you now, you need to realize that physicality is a deal breaker. I no longer feel safe physically, emotionally or financially and we need to work to rebuild this. To make this work, I expect….”
You can fill in the dots, but for me it would include him finding an individual therapist or anger management program and him sitting down with you with the full transparency of financial info.
I don’t get why you are scared to tell him “you did something that is a dealbreaker and to work it out, I have demands” — not being able to say this seems like a red flag.
Dude, he HIT her, then denied it, and you “don’t get why” she’s scared?
I knew I’d get blasted for saying that, but I did also say it was due to my own bias. I had a roommate who used to get drunk and then get into epic fights with her significant other. I did say that it was NOT ok for him to hit her but in my opinion you should have these conversations when in a clear mindset.
This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here. You know one specific person who took something to extremes, so now your advice to someone who did something adjacent to that extreme - because the OP says that first she just asked her H to help, she didn't go into this looking for a fight and only responded when he refused to join in on the household responsibility - is conditioned on your unhinged sample of one? If you've been drinking you can never disagree with someone in case it unexpectedly leads to a physical fight that's purely the other person's fault? Come the fuck on.
I would strongly encourage you to consider the following questions. You do not need to answer these questions here. I have posed these to a friend whose husband isn't a great partner in the past.
1. What do you get out of this relationship? 2. Is your husband setting a good example for your children of what a life partner and parent should be?
Great questions. Would def be good to explore in therapy. I know it’s super hard to consider or get divorced with kids and that doesn’t change a toxic partners personality but to be honest having kids is an even bigger motivator to not tolerate a toxic relationship or justify someone’s abusive behavior.
I don’t get why you just won’t say “last night was unacceptable. You got physical with me and now you are trying to claim it didn’t happen. While I’m not leaving you now, you need to realize that physicality is a deal breaker. I no longer feel safe physically, emotionally or financially and we need to work to rebuild this. To make this work, I expect….”
You can fill in the dots, but for me it would include him finding an individual therapist or anger management program and him sitting down with you with the full transparency of financial info.
I don’t get why you are scared to tell him “you did something that is a dealbreaker and to work it out, I have demands” — not being able to say this seems like a red flag.
This is such a harmful response. It doesn't matter what YOU don't get.
Shaming or judging is something we all do but hopefully we all progress and learn from it. I hope this is a chance for you to learn from it. I learned it, actually a long time ago, thanks to this board. AGAIN it doesn't matter what YOU don't get. It isn't about YOU.
These aren't black and white situations for everyone, there are consequences for her next steps whether they are positive or negative, life altering or not we do not know. I think it's fine to share advice on what someone could do but the lack of empathy (or your inability to explain that in this post) is ridiculous.
I don’t get why you just won’t say “last night was unacceptable. You got physical with me and now you are trying to claim it didn’t happen. While I’m not leaving you now, you need to realize that physicality is a deal breaker. I no longer feel safe physically, emotionally or financially and we need to work to rebuild this. To make this work, I expect….”
You can fill in the dots, but for me it would include him finding an individual therapist or anger management program and him sitting down with you with the full transparency of financial info.
I don’t get why you are scared to tell him “you did something that is a dealbreaker and to work it out, I have demands” — not being able to say this seems like a red flag.
I don’t get what you don’t get here!
I’m very sorry. This accidentally posted before I had a chance to finish and clearly I wasn’t very articulate. I meant this in a more “playing devils advocate” way. If I had finished my post, the ending would have been something like the following (with some additional wordsmithing of the first two paragraphs:
You have come back a couple of times to say you are “not scared,” but I think you might be — and you have some good reasons to be scared. An individual therapist could help you work through how much abuse/control there has already been before you even get to this physical abuse. You can also really think through your dealbreakers and what demands you have to even consider making this work. And if there is so much abuse/control that you are not in a position to make demands about unacceptable behavior, you then have to consider your exit strategy.
As I noted in a prior post, I would be assuming that divorce is most likely in my future and plan accordingly.
I don’t get why you just won’t say “last night was unacceptable. You got physical with me and now you are trying to claim it didn’t happen. While I’m not leaving you now, you need to realize that physicality is a deal breaker. I no longer feel safe physically, emotionally or financially and we need to work to rebuild this. To make this work, I expect….”
You can fill in the dots, but for me it would include him finding an individual therapist or anger management program and him sitting down with you with the full transparency of financial info.
I don’t get why you are scared to tell him “you did something that is a dealbreaker and to work it out, I have demands” — not being able to say this seems like a red flag.
This is such a harmful response. It doesn't matter what YOU don't get.
Shaming or judging is somewhere each of has been but hopefully this is a chance for you to learn from. I learned it, actually a long time ago, thanks to this board. AGAIN it doesn't matter what YOU don't get. It isn't about YOU.
These aren't black and white situations for everyone, there are consequences for her next steps whether they are positive or negative, life altering or not we do not know. I think it's fine to share advice on what someone could do but the lack of empathy (or your inability to explain that in this post) is ridiculous.
People need support not lectures.
Ok, you can see my follow up. But I will back out of this post. And I apologize. I certainly wasn’t trying to be harmful.
Post by newnamesameperson on Feb 14, 2023 15:47:28 GMT -5
momof2 I do not know you but my guess is you've gone through or witness someone going through something similar. It's clear you want OP to take care of herself and children. My only goal in what I said to you is honestly just a reminder that we can share advice on what we think is best but it's important to attempt to do it in an empathetic manner. I often fail, so I'm trying to consciously provide support so OP continues to remain comfortable sharing and has as "safe" as this place can be outlet to share.
I am so sorry, wendyp, Putting your hands on someone in anger is never ok. He can downplay it or argue semantics whether it was a push, hit or punch, but it doesn't change that it was done to you in anger to you.
My advice would be to see if you can get someone, maybe a good friend, to have your kids over for a couple of hours so that you the two of you can have a real talk about your marriage. Sometimes the roles we agree to in theory, say before the kids come along, we realize do not fully work and things need to be adjusted. That said, if this is how he has been for a quite awhile, I wonder if he is capable of change.
What was he like as a partner to you before you had kids?
I'm sorry you're facing this. It sounds like you guys are going through a challenging period like many of us do, but your H's response, including hitting and gaslighting, is totally over the line. 100% agree with all the posters who have advised both counseling for yourself, writing things down as they happen in dated entries, and gathering up all the financial info you might need to build an independent life if you need to.
but how would you go about moving forward with day to day life?
I need him to watch the kids so I can go get my nails done and I have a hair appointment on Friday.
The other big thing is we are going to st Lucia in 2 weeks. My parents are flying in to watch the kids and this is the first big trip we have planned away from them and I really need it. But obviously I'm upset now and do not want to go to this romantic place with him right now. We can't cancel because we would lose all the money and on top of it, I don't want to tell my parents anything or anyone else. How can I go and enjoy myself without being sad about the current state of my marriage?
RE: day to day, do you have any reason to think he might hit the kids? I mean, I'm guessing you didn't think he'd hit you until just recently, but with all the context you have, do you think he might do it to them in a fit of rage that they are splashing too much in the tub, yelling too loudly, not eating what he made for dinner, being the frustratingly independently little beings that kids sometimes are? How is his patience with them? How you feel about all that (rhetorical question) that will dictate a lot. If you think there's any chance he might get physical with them too, I think it's time to prioritize that over nails and hair. And if you're at that place, I think that also tells you that next steps need to be elucidated quickly.
RE: St. Lucia, there's never a good time for this (or any other catastrophe) to happen. The calendar is always busy. So if you are trying to decide whether to bury it to keep peace (or the appearance of peace) for "just a little longer" or to rip the scab off the wound and deal with it all right now, I would try to make that decision based on your health, safety, and wellbeing, as independently of the trip as possible. If you decide not to go to St. Lucia, you probably have a good reason and there's more on the line here than the trip cost. You CAN cancel, and you CAN always come up with something to tell people who don't need to know the details. Something came up with work, a kid needed you for something, whatever. You don't owe anyone a full accounting for your reasons.
I realize those might sound extreme, but the combination of the physicality, the gaslighting, the kids in the equation, and you being away from your support networks (in St. Lucia) make me nervous for you, especially if his reaction to next discussions is not the best possible outcome.
Post by imojoebunny on Feb 14, 2023 17:32:24 GMT -5
If you have any physical marks, bruise, etc. be sure to photograph and document them, and send them in a dated email to either a burner email account or a very trusted, non-judgemental friend, saying what you have said here about what happened, but without placing the blame on going out for a few glasses of wine for girls night, which is something regularly done by millions of women every day. It is easy to gloss over his actions with time, and if the physical violence escalates, but there is a long time in between, to put it aside, as a one off. Physical violence, and verbal, too, has a tendency to make people “fall in line” and not feel comfortable discussing things. It is the mute button of relationships. I hope you will go to a therapist alone, to discuss.