Battle for the Soul of Buy Nothing

[bee20]

www.wired.com/story/the-battle-for-buy-nothing/

This is fascinating and also feels like living long enough to become the villain. It profiles the founders of buy nothing which I know is popular here, and is talking about how in order to get off of fbook, which they feel like isn't aligned with their goals, they are working with VCs to launch an app.  But of course it costs money to have your own platform so they're working on monetization and users and volunteer mods are feeling like that is a bigger sin than transacting on fbook. 

[goldengirlz]

That was a good read. Buy Nothing groups have a noble goal, but I think you have to consider it in the narrow sense of trying to reduce waste rather the loftier goal of trying to become a sort of utopia where we all share amongst our neighbors in selfless harmony, with nary a dollar exchanging hands.

That utopia clearly doesn’t exist. Exhibit A: racists.

There’s also a certain irony around the idea that you can truly buy nothing, at least in our current society. There’s a lot of invisible labor that goes into maintaining a community, and it’s often the kind of unpaid labor that people just expect will be done by women. Those community-building skills have actual economic value too — Facebook pays a lot a money to people with those skills, not to mention content moderation, user verification, fraud detection, etc. etc. And the tech, of course.

So I personally don’t see the problem with a group that wants to do good for society trying to pursue its mission while also being an economically sustainable organization. Plenty of businesses do just that. You can focus on the first goal of sustainability, while giving up the goal of trying to upend the very idea of capitalism in general.

[sakoro]

This is a long read but fascinating. In order to build a better app and innovate, you need to raise capital. But that contradicts the whole ethos of Buy Nothing, which is making do with what’s already out there, rather than create more stuff be-it physical objects or software.

The conversations with the venture capitalists and Angel investors are pretty interesting too— they can’t understand why two women would spend this much time and resources (or they should sink their resources) into a project that is designed to not make money and operate outside of market capitalism. It seems like the founders should stay on Facebook and work around the negative aspects of it, rather than taking on an expensive project.

[candreco]

I find the whole BN experience and how there's always someone interested no matter how random the item really interesting. My local group covers a very ethnically/economically diverse area, and seems to be primarily a mix of more affluent people looking to get rid of stuff they don't want easily/in a more environmentally-friendly way than just trashing it, and people who are living paycheck to paycheck and use it as a way to cut living expenses or deal with unexpected needs. It's not a shared-resources utopia by any means, and I think the concerns about splitting groups as they grow leading to segregating socioeconomic groups are valid (a group that split off from mine covers a solidly white upper-middle class area and is a VERY different vibe).

But it's clearly not truly "free" as there's a lot of time that goes into posting, coordinating pick ups, etc. just for the average user, let alone the admins. I have one neighbor who it's basically a full-time job for at this point; she posts both her own stuff and has her own pick ups to manage, but also seems to be building a home purging/organizing business and posts stuff from those jobs too if the client isn't necessarily interested in making money.

I do also seriously doubt that you'd get people to move to a new app from established FB groups.

[icedcoffee]

Buy Nothing is super fascinating to me. I am part of 2 groups as we also own a vacation home. The thing I find most interesting is the stuff given away at the vacation home are SOOOO much nicer and more expensive. The reason it's interesting to me is that that neighborhood is most definitely lower incomes. I think it's mostly because people have smaller homes and less space to store shit whereas in our primary neighborhood people make more and can afford to "give more", but homes are bigger so they just throw it into their closets. Maybe. I don't know. Like I said I find it fascinating to watch.

Anyway--yes, moving away from FB would really suck and I don't know if I'd do it even though I really love BN.

Also--I prefer it to be a hyperlocal experience, but I can see why segregating is a concern.

[konapoppy]

I really wish they could have found some kind of angel investor that would at least get themselves a working wage for this. I know they didn’t want to be trapped in the nonprofit cycle, but now they are at the whims of many more stakeholders in some ways.

It would be awesome if a company like Waste Management would essentially fund them. It helps them reduce what they have to store, and shows good will. I know it’s more complicated than that, but as a regular user of buy nothing, I feel terrible that the people who helped create and manage this forum that has saved me so much are drowning.

And I also get the desire to move away from FB. But it is essentially a monopoly for a reason.

[lilac05]

I have been very active on our Buy Nothing group. I think I’ve received one or two things, but have given away a lot. It has built a little community that is really nice. Recently, one really active member had an emergency surgery, and the group provided meals, helped with her kids, etc. It was really cool to see.

However, we recently “sprouted” and exactly what was mentioned in the article happened. The group was largely split on socioeconomic lines (not so much race, as it’s Iowa, and the group is probably 95%+ white…another issue in and of itself). It caused a lot of hurt feelings, which is totally understandable. But I’m not sure there was really a good solution. The group was 2,500+ people, and was way too much for the volunteer administrators to handle. It needed to split up, and a line had to be drawn somewhere. They moved the lines a few times, trying to find a balance as much as possible…but obviously because of the way that real Estate goes, there’s no fair way. The end result was that they basically said that people who are already in the group can choose which group they’d like to be in, but all transactions had to take place within the border of the group they join. That’s the downfall of hyper local things.

An interesting observation that I’ve made is that people in the wealthier neighborhoods are more likely to give nice gifts…but it’s often people in the lower income neighborhoods who fulfill gifts, especially ones like, “I am in need of diapers to last me until next pay day.”

[Gato]

My other message board started as a Facebook group for arts-focused women over 40 (and is now back to being a smaller, closed Facebook group). As membership passed 30K, the founder tried to create her own website, where she asked people to pony up $30 a year to join (there were scholarships, too). So many women objected to that, and angrily! They accused her of selling out. But it was basically turning into a full-time job for her and her team of moderators, which, as they pointed out, was free labor that only enriched Facebook.

She did get 5K people to join, but she ended up putting over $100K into developing the site (she was independently wealthy), so obviously she was losing money. Eventually she sold it to a West Coast group that was doing something similar, and they tried to monetize it further by offering classes and get-togethers for a fee. I actually really enjoyed it - I went to new restaurants, on a hike, on a windjammer cruise, and to a dispensary where the owner explained her product. There were like ten new things a day, all member-driven. I felt like it was a really valuable service that many older women would pay for: trying new things within a safe space, meeting new people from all around the country.

Unfortunately, they never got financial backing and it folded a few months ago. To hear the founder tell it, it was just very hard to convince Silicon Valley investors (men) that this was a worthwhile and profitable venture. Maybe it never would have been; maybe it overlapped too much with Meetup.

[pugz]

I love my BN group. It has sprouted multiple times and people get super pissed every time.

Our group recently asked people to stop responding to posts with their sob stories or a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! and just respond "interested" or something simple like that a few people that were in BN groups in other cities previously were so offended that we don't want to get to know each other's stories and become BFFs.

No dude. Not here for this. I don't need paragraphs about why you think you need it. I'm gonna draw a number via random.org and be done with it. 

[BlondeSpiders]

Feb 28, 2023 17:00:51 GMT -5 pugz said:

I love my BN group. It has sprouted multiple times and people get super pissed every time.

Our group recently asked people to stop responding to posts with their sob stories or a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! and just respond "interested" or something simple like that a few people that were in BN groups in other cities previously were so offended that we don't want to get to know each other's stories and become BFFs.

No dude. Not here for this. I don't need paragraphs about why you think you need it. I'm gonna draw a number via random.org and be done with it. 

I've given away a number of items in my group, and there's always this one person who reminds us every single time that she's a single mom and really needs this thing for her kid. Really, this 8 year old GoPro? She's even private messaged me a few times to get an in. But I always do a random number draw. 

[icedcoffee]

I hate when someone posts something and someone responds with “oh you should donate this to xyz nonprofit” and then I feel like I can’t say I’m interested in it without looking like I dont care about a nonprofit. LOL Knock it off! People know they can donate things but sometimes they decide to gift it to a neighbor!

[lucybrown]

Feb 28, 2023 20:59:45 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I hate when someone posts something and someone responds with “oh you should donate this to xyz nonprofit” and then I feel like I can’t say I’m interested in it without looking like I dont care about a nonprofit. LOL Knock it off! People know they can donate things but sometimes they decide to gift it to a neighbor!

And also, the unsolicited advice. I’m just posting some decaf coffee I didn’t like. I’m not looking for advice about half-caff or whatever. Either state interested or be quiet.

[al dente]

Feb 28, 2023 17:00:51 GMT -5 pugz said:

I love my BN group. It has sprouted multiple times and people get super pissed every time.

Our group recently asked people to stop responding to posts with their sob stories or a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! and just respond "interested" or something simple like that a few people that were in BN groups in other cities previously were so offended that we don't want to get to know each other's stories and become BFFs.

No dude. Not here for this. I don't need paragraphs about why you think you need it. I'm gonna draw a number via random.org and be done with it. 

Flip side is our group which practically every "give" post asks why the person needs the item, and it turns into as someone referred to it as "trama porn" with just lists of everything terrible that's happened in every responders life.

I still use our BN for getting rid of stuff, but I never ask because I feel like people view it as charity, where I joined for the environmental aspect. Which is fine I don't really need more stuff lol.

I think it would be very hard to move off of Facebook. I personally would never download an app or pay for it. My BN is my most drama filled Facebook group so it needs moderation.

[redheadbaker]

Feb 28, 2023 17:00:51 GMT -5 pugz said:

I love my BN group. It has sprouted multiple times and people get super pissed every time.

Our group recently asked people to stop responding to posts with their sob stories or a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! and just respond "interested"

Funny, our BN group is trying to STOP people from simply replying "interested."

[heygrey]

My area only recently organized a BN group and so far I hate it. I shop almost exclusively second hand and am very active on Marketplace. I give away a lot, but I don’t want to add mental energy to the process. I’m not letting it simmer. I’m not ruminating on who is most deserving. Tell me you’re going to show up within the hour, I’ll leave the item in front of my garage.

[gardengal]

Feb 28, 2023 23:12:41 GMT -5 redheadbaker said:

Feb 28, 2023 17:00:51 GMT -5 pugz said:

I love my BN group. It has sprouted multiple times and people get super pissed every time.

Our group recently asked people to stop responding to posts with their sob stories or a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! and just respond "interested"

Funny, our BN group is trying to STOP people from simply replying "interested."

Same. In part bc we’ve had issues with people reselling items they get on FB.

[ssmjlm]

Feb 28, 2023 23:56:11 GMT -5 heygrey said:

My area only recently organized a BN group and so far I hate it. I shop almost exclusively second hand and am very active on Marketplace. I give away a lot, but I don’t want to add mental energy to the process. I’m not letting it simmer. I’m not ruminating on who is most deserving. Tell me you’re going to show up within the hour, I’ll leave the item in front of my garage.

Ours just has those labeled as rapid gifts and this way they know it's FCFS.

[macmars45]

Mar 1, 2023 9:15:01 GMT -5 ssmjlm said:

Feb 28, 2023 23:56:11 GMT -5 heygrey said:

My area only recently organized a BN group and so far I hate it. I shop almost exclusively second hand and am very active on Marketplace. I give away a lot, but I don’t want to add mental energy to the process. I’m not letting it simmer. I’m not ruminating on who is most deserving. Tell me you’re going to show up within the hour, I’ll leave the item in front of my garage.

Ours just has those labeled as rapid gifts and this way they know it's FCFS.

My group in the South Seattle area was like that. It probably still is. You could choose whether to give a rapid gift or let it simmer. I moved to central WA state 2.5 years ago. The BN groups here are all first come first serve and if you dare to not choose someone immediately people who want your item DM you demanding your address because they can pick up right now. No thank you.

[ssmjlm]

My thoughts - FB is prevalent and free for users. I get why they wanted to go onto their own platform, but it seems a little too late. It reminds me of IG companies that attempted their own apps and honestly, I don't think they had a lot of takers because the companies don't talk about the app at all anymore.



Our group is talking about splitting because we currently cover 2 areas. I'm in favor because I wouldn't travel to the next town for something, but I know others might. TBD on if they split or not.

[heygrey]

Mar 1, 2023 9:15:01 GMT -5 ssmjlm said:

Feb 28, 2023 23:56:11 GMT -5 heygrey said:

My area only recently organized a BN group and so far I hate it. I shop almost exclusively second hand and am very active on Marketplace. I give away a lot, but I don’t want to add mental energy to the process. I’m not letting it simmer. I’m not ruminating on who is most deserving. Tell me you’re going to show up within the hour, I’ll leave the item in front of my garage.

Ours just has those labeled as rapid gifts and this way they know it's FCFS.

Maybe my group will change as it grows, but right now the admins are insisting on simmering and hearing stories. It’s fine, it’s just not for me. I like using Marketplace so I’ll just stick to that.

[noodleoo]

Mar 1, 2023 9:24:59 GMT -5 macmars45 said:

Mar 1, 2023 9:15:01 GMT -5 ssmjlm said:

Ours just has those labeled as rapid gifts and this way they know it's FCFS.

My group in the South Seattle area was like that. It probably still is. You could choose whether to give a rapid gift or let it simmer. I moved to central WA state 2.5 years ago. The BN groups here are all first come first serve and if you dare to not choose someone immediately people who want your item DM you demanding your address because they can pick up right now. No thank you.

My BN group is like this.  I've started to notice the same people get a lot of stuff.  I mostly give away, so I don't really care, but I noticed the same person kept "winning" all my items.  I just wonder if she's really using them or reselling or something.  It is a little frustrating the few times I see something that I'd like to see the same few people are always first.  Oh well, I mostly use it to get stuff out of my house quickly.

[AJL]

Feb 28, 2023 17:00:51 GMT -5 pugz said:

I love my BN group. It has sprouted multiple times and people get super pissed every time.

Our group recently asked people to stop responding to posts with their sob stories or a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! and just respond "interested" or something simple like that a few people that were in BN groups in other cities previously were so offended that we don't want to get to know each other's stories and become BFFs.

No dude. Not here for this. I don't need paragraphs about why you think you need it. I'm gonna draw a number via random.org and be done with it. 

I generally use my BN group for purging stuff and rarely actually request anything (though I did request browning bananas because there was a collective demand at my house for banana bread. lol!)

But when I post things, it becomes this long list of folks with their "Why you should choose me" essays and I just can't with that. Usually, I do first come, first served, because honestly I just want it gone. However, yesterday I posted three complete book series sets and there were about sixty people interested, most of whom shared a story as to why they should get the books. So I did a drawing. I figured that was the most equitable option.  I guess sometimes I feel like the stories are emotionally manipulative (and I realize that's my issue.)

[rubytue]

Mar 1, 2023 9:15:01 GMT -5 ssmjlm said:

Feb 28, 2023 23:56:11 GMT -5 heygrey said:

My area only recently organized a BN group and so far I hate it. I shop almost exclusively second hand and am very active on Marketplace. I give away a lot, but I don’t want to add mental energy to the process. I’m not letting it simmer. I’m not ruminating on who is most deserving. Tell me you’re going to show up within the hour, I’ll leave the item in front of my garage.

Ours just has those labeled as rapid gifts and this way they know it's FCFS.

So *thats* what they mean by “flash gift”. I’ve been trying to figure out how that differs. It’s like I need a FAQ for the terminology in my group. Like PPU - some use it in context that seems to mean pending pick up, others for porch pick up. And there are so many posts where I can’t tell if “gifted” means it’s been taken or if someone’s autocorrect changed gift. Because, it will be a 30 minute old post that says gifted, and that seems really quick to have come and gone. 

The biggest drama in my group is from expired food and people with no transportation. There are some in our group that will deliver stuff, but not everyone will. And a few people without transportation get upset when they aren’t selected. And the food thing… soooo much drama. Even when people post that it’s at or past date, someone will chime in. 

[hermione]

Feb 28, 2023 17:00:51 GMT -5 pugz said:

I love my BN group. It has sprouted multiple times and people get super pissed every time.

Our group recently asked people to stop responding to posts with their sob stories or a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! and just respond "interested" or something simple like that a few people that were in BN groups in other cities previously were so offended that we don't want to get to know each other's stories and become BFFs.

No dude. Not here for this. I don't need paragraphs about why you think you need it. I'm gonna draw a number via random.org and be done with it. 

I love to get rid of things on Buy Nothing. I got my hand slapped once because I always say preference will be given to someone able to pick up today. Somehow that's not fair? I was glad when our group sprouted.

[Deleted]

Our neighborhood has an active B/S/T group that includes “curb alert” and other free items, as well as many that cost $1. People also post ISO (“in search of”) items to buy or borrow quite often. Fortunately it’s FCFS, so there are no long missives about why people should be selected to receive items, and for the most part stuff is porch pickup so I don’t even have to make small talk with anyone.

I understand that a goal of BN is to create a community of knowing your neighbors, giving to those with needs, and creating a social atmosphere….but the introvert in me doesn’t need to share stories and bond with neighbors over every pack of socks that don’t fit or workout leggings that I want to get out of my house.

[scm1011]

Mar 1, 2023 10:53:14 GMT -5 hermione said:

Feb 28, 2023 17:00:51 GMT -5 pugz said:

I love my BN group. It has sprouted multiple times and people get super pissed every time.

Our group recently asked people to stop responding to posts with their sob stories or a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! and just respond "interested" or something simple like that a few people that were in BN groups in other cities previously were so offended that we don't want to get to know each other's stories and become BFFs.

No dude. Not here for this. I don't need paragraphs about why you think you need it. I'm gonna draw a number via random.org and be done with it. 

I love to get rid of things on Buy Nothing. I got my hand slapped once because I always say preference will be given to someone able to pick up today. Somehow that's not fair? I was glad when our group sprouted.

Yeah, I'm part of an "Everything is Free, <City>" group that doesn't have the same rigid rules as BN thankfully, because I always do this ("Must be picked up by tomorrow" etc). Ours is generally FCFS. I also do a lot of curb alerts for stuff I don't have the energy to manage and honestly that seems to light the fire under people more. 

Its been a great way to get rid of stuff, and I have definitely benefited as well. 

[joy]

I love our Buy Nothing Group. It sprouted a few years ago and I was kinda glad. We’re in the city so it was annoying to request an item only to find out it was actually ten blocks away. It’s much more hyper-local now.

I have used it to meet neighbors! Our mods also want us to “let things simmer” but don’t police us if we don’t. Some people say “preference for fastest pick up,” some say “tell me why you need it!” And other will say “I’ll pick at random.” All ways are tolerated.

Come live in my neighborhood. We got it down.

[pugz]

Mar 1, 2023 10:53:14 GMT -5 hermione said:

Feb 28, 2023 17:00:51 GMT -5 pugz said:

I love my BN group. It has sprouted multiple times and people get super pissed every time.

Our group recently asked people to stop responding to posts with their sob stories or a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! and just respond "interested" or something simple like that a few people that were in BN groups in other cities previously were so offended that we don't want to get to know each other's stories and become BFFs.

No dude. Not here for this. I don't need paragraphs about why you think you need it. I'm gonna draw a number via random.org and be done with it. 

I love to get rid of things on Buy Nothing. I got my hand slapped once because I always say preference will be given to someone able to pick up today. Somehow that's not fair? I was glad when our group sprouted.

oh yes ours prefers you let it "simmer" which for me means like 4-8 hours, lol. 

[pixy0stix]

But back to the OP, I can't imagine how many hours mods of certain groups put in, and for most of it, it's unpaid. Then if you do get places that pay the mods, the users shit all over them for being paid. It's just a no win situation.

[pugz]

Feb 28, 2023 20:41:07 GMT -5 BlondeSpiders said:

Feb 28, 2023 17:00:51 GMT -5 pugz said:

I love my BN group. It has sprouted multiple times and people get super pissed every time.

Our group recently asked people to stop responding to posts with their sob stories or a PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! and just respond "interested" or something simple like that a few people that were in BN groups in other cities previously were so offended that we don't want to get to know each other's stories and become BFFs.

No dude. Not here for this. I don't need paragraphs about why you think you need it. I'm gonna draw a number via random.org and be done with it. 

I've given away a number of items in my group, and there's always this one person who reminds us every single time that she's a single mom and really needs this thing for her kid. Really, this 8 year old GoPro? She's even private messaged me a few times to get an in. But I always do a random number draw. 

I've had to block a few people. One because I once gave her a bag of clothing and when she picked it up she saw a bin on my porch labeled with something else (that I did not have anymore, I just hadn't taken the label off the bin) and she was pissed I didn't offer her that thing. WTF LADY. Blocked so fast. 

I have also blocked people that claim things but then it comes out they have no transportation. Thankfully our mods have cracked down on people that are repeated no shows.